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TO ALL………> peace and love to you all, I started this Post for the purpose to slow down the debates some what, and focus on more simple things dealing with our salvation and maybe if we deal with some of these things it will help solve other issues also.
First thing we need is a over view of what it means to be saved and How this process works, We pretty much all know that Jesus died for our sins and not ours only but for the sins of the whole world. I don't think that statement would produce any arguments here, and also we know by accepting His price he payed for us , GOD the FATHER has acquitted us of our sins, and given us of HIS Spirit (HOLY SEED), we also know that this is not a license to continue sinning, but we also recognize we still do fall short at times, and we know How to go to the throne of grace to find help in time of Need.
Some live in fear of failure and are some what fearful and others who are in doubt of their salvation go to the law and try desperately to conform to it. Thinking the harder they try the more likely they will be saved.
I fee this self doubt comes from a lack of confidence and Knowledge of how we are truly saved. I myself have had doubt at times, if i were striving and doing enough to “Qualify” for my salvation. I think many seeking Salvation have these doubts at times. But if we come to understand the truth about the salvation process i think many fears will be laid to rest.
Here are some things to consider and i hope we will all talk about in this thread, What actually are we dealing with anyway that cause all the problems with us in the first place. I believe it's our dual Natures as Paul brought out these two Natures are at odds with each other, It will greately help us to realize how these two natures (IN) Us work. Paul was so besides himself he said “O” WRETCHED MAN THAT I AM, who can deliver me from this BODY of DEATH. We two moan and groan , waiting for our deliverance also from these bodies of death. Because He said the Good that he would do He did not do, but the evil he would (NOT) do that HE DID. That truly is a wretched condition to be in, but he went on and said “I thank GOD through Jesus Christ He would be delievered”.
Some would take that as saying don't worry about sin in you life then, But quite the contrary, If you have recieved the NEW NATURE and Have the HOLY SPIRIT or SEED of GOD the FATHER in YOU, You will always be at odds with sin, even if you scum at time , you will also Like PAUL (FEEL) WRETCHED. Because you NATURE is Changed and you WANT to be pleasing to the FATHER even AS Jesus WAS. There is (NO) Way you can Have GOD'S NATURE in US and be Satisfied with (ANY) SIN in our lives no matter how small it is. Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Truth) will alway convict any who have it of there sins, It drives us to repentance and change. we are being perfected by it to be pleasing to GOD our FATHER.
I want to stop here because it might get to long and want others to commit on this subject of the two Natures true begotten Childern of GOD Have in them and How we deal with it.
peace and love to you all……………….gene
Gene
Good post, good explanation.
I'm not sure if I understand your meaning of two natures correctly.
We are being made into a “new” creature, or nature, do to the Holy Spirit in us.
As you said, the Holy Spirit in us convicts us of sin, and so we try harder to overcome sin.
You quoted Paul correctly, “body”, but then you said “bodies” of death, typing error?Georg
Gene,
I can agree with your post as far as it goes. Perhaps to understand salvation one must understand what we are being saved from and what we are being saved into. In this post I will talk about what we are to be saved into.
I would like to add that in addition to Christ being a blood sacrifice for us he also bought back for us the position we lost at the fall.
Adam had dominion over the world that God created for him. As he matured that dominion would have expanded until he became one with God. This would have been due him as a perfected son of God.
In addition Adam had immortality. He would not have eventually died had he not fallen. Because we have all fallen short of the glory and sinned we are all due this first death. Adam was taught to sacrifice in faith to avoid the second eternal death. We too must accept the finale sacrifice of the spotless lamb to avoid the second death.
The result of salvation is to make our position as God’s sons available through Christ and then continuing our perfection by what we suffer. The result of this is our being freed of the curse of the second death.The second Adam did not give up his position of dominion. This is how Christ healed the sick, caused gold to appear in fishes mouth and calmed the seas. It also explains how he may have walked through walls after his resurrection.
Christ was one with God and says that we too are to be one with God even as He was one with God. We see this occurring in measure every time a person is healed by someone yielding to the position of atonement with God. Every time we someone partner with YHWH for the benefit of His brethren we see this dominion revealed.We too can reclaim our birthright and position. Christ paid the price for us to again be part of the plan of God for mankind. The major thing standing in our way is our own unbelief. Many Christians think of the cross as the end goal of man. In truth it is only the beginning. (I should say a second beginning since Adam’s attempt ended in failure.) After the cross we begin the journey to FULLY reclaim our position in God’s economy.
There is an old pentacostal song called “Only Believe”.
Only believe,
Only Believe,
All things are possible,
Only Believe.That really is the crux of our struggle. Believe that we too can have dominion as Christ did. Reject doctrines that lessen the clarity of that opportunity.
Accept ones that make that path more clear.In the Hebrew, the word faith means to work with God to achieve His desire in our lives and throughout the world. When God gives direction, work with Him as our partner in the family business.
Hi,
The Spirit of God, if received, must be allowed to rule in us and lead us.The body belonged to earth and Satan holds on as tightly as he is allowed to in us while we live in that body.
The saved soul is freed from his influence at death.
Part two —
What are we being saved from?
And everyone raises their hands as says “sin”.
But what exactly is sin? Most say it is failure to obey God or to break the commandments.The Hebrew scholar Jeff Benner defines sin as follows.
The concrete meaning to “sin” is “to miss” as when aiming at a target. From the parallels between “believe not” and “sin” we find that if one “sins” they do not believe God showing that a belief in God is dependent upon our actions.
The entire etymology can be found at –
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/20_poetry.htmlThis definition fits perfectly with the Hebrew understanding of the Torah (law)
Our English Bibles usually interpret “torah” into the word “law”. This does an injustice to the concept of the torah.
The torah was a set of wisdoms or directions passed on from a father (God) to a son (us) to teach us how to walk as good sons through this journey of life.
(An interesting tidbit – the word Good and Evil in Hebrew actually means “functional and dysfunctional.”)
The father’s desire was for us to walk through this journey of life as functional beings. Everything should work for us to complete our full destinies. If you read my previous post that means to reclaim our rightful position of dominion as sons and heirs with Christ. To function as God the great designer intended.
From a fathers standpoint it was as much about our attitude toward the Torah as it was about obedience to the torah. This would be a good place to talk about the words “Keep” and Break” as to keep or break the commandments.
The Hebrew people related everything to their natural realm. They thought in concrete terms. In the Hebrew the word commandment does not carry the meaning of a commander giving orders but rather means literally “directions toward Zion”. God gives us directions for our journey in life.
(another interesting tidbit – The word Ruach in Hebrew is translated spirit and literally means breath or wind. The Hebrews depended on the trade winds to guide them from pasture to pasture and through the seasons. This wind/breath of God guided the Ancient Hebrews and us today on our journey.)
The word “Keep” means to guard and protect – not obey. It is the same word used for the corral of brush used to protect their flocks at night. This meaning is carried on today in the Keep of a castle. The safest place and most well guarded. It is also seen in the children’s prayer “Now I lay me down to sleep. I pray the Lord my soul to KEEP” This prayer is asking God to guard and protect the child’s soul.
The word Break means to trample underfoot. It is the same word used to speak of trampling off the chaff from the wheat. What this is signifying is an attitude toward God’s directions of life. Do we show them respect and guard them as precious advice from a loving Father or do we trample them underfoot in defiance?
When a child learned the Torah they would attempt to make the mark and follow the advice of the torah. If they failed they were commended for their actions and taught how to do better the next time. It was only when a child rebelled in defiance against the torah that he was punished. Even then it was to bring them back to respect of the directions of the father. It was all about the attitude of the child toward the advice of the father. Though this process was sometimes long the repeated attempts eventually produced character like the fathers.When Christ died on the cross his blood sacrifice wiped out all the failures of following the Torah. ALL OF THEM PAST PRESENT AND FUTURE. Many Christians stop and camp at the cross, going down for altar calls over and over to get saved again and again. Often times they do this because as soon as they leave church they forget any directions God ever gave them. somewhere in the back of their minds they decide it is ok to ignore God’s directions because they are forgiven every time. They are accurate in the forgiveness aspect but they fail to consider the second half of our covenant with God. OUR ATTITUDE.
Two men commit the same sin. One says God will forgive me and goes on his way. He has no intention of turning from his sin nor is he saddened by it.
The second man is heart broken over his failure to meet God’s standard and vows to ;earn all he can from God’s wisdom to overcome. He looks at Christ as his example and acquires hope. He seeks wisdom from others that have overcome and he works with God (faith) to do better.One is truly keeping the commandments and one is not.
Attitude is an action. We take action based on our attitude. sin is not just the disobedience of the torah. It is the attitude of the person doing the act.I could tie in the entire scripture in this post but I fear I would lose the readers if it is too long.
G,
You say
“First thing we need is a over view of what it means to be saved and How this process works, We pretty much all know that Jesus died for our sins and not ours only but for the sins of the whole world. I don't think that statement would produce any arguments here, and also we know by accepting His price he payed for us , GOD the FATHER has acquitted us of our sins, and given us of HIS Spirit (HOLY SEED), we also know that this is not a license to continue sinning, but we also recognize we still do fall short at times, and we know How to go to the throne of grace to find help in time of Need. “
Really?
We just need to know what Jesus did and that saves us and fills us with His Spirit?Nonsense.
you must repent and be baptised in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sin.
Then as a son you can ask the Father for the gift of His Spirit.[lk11]You should live in doubt and fear of failure if you have not obeyed the command
seek first the kingdom and then seek the Spirit.G,
Men who are not reborn from above are driven by sin living in them.
Only one who is stronger can dethrone the strong man.Nick…..So congratulation on you perfection, but Paul would differ with you on that. You (try)to separate Sin as one we do, and another as sin living in us. Interesting No where do the bible teach that, Most all you presentation is about SELF SALVATION brought About by the SELF. Even you description of repentance is presented as a SELF ACT. I noticed you have left the (POWER) of GOD CREATIVE WORK OUT, of your presentation completely . WHY is THAT> SO it seem you believe the person himself changes himself and acquires a righteous standing with His GOD. GOD'S Spirit seem to have little or no part in you self salvation WORKS. Your continual, “YOU must” , YOU must, YOU repent, YOU Must FEAR, YOU YOU YOU MUST.YOU Must Ask the FATHER for His spirit, (THEN) as a SON YOU can ask the FATHER for his Spirit to be a son of his. Nick you are totally removed from the reality of how salvation works IN US IMO. WE Have Be become Sons of GOD before we ask for help on specific issues, Because the SPIRIT Shows us were we need help. You never ever mention the (CREATIVE) POWER of GOD , Creating Change and transforming US, in our hearts and minds, why is that NICK? any way i don't want to get into a debate with you on this. I am Sure (YOUR) strength makes you the strongman in (YOUR) life .
When we recieve the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD the FATHER (IT) produces in US the attributes of GOD , “BY GRACE (God's influencing on our hearts) are we SAVED and that (NOT) of OURSELVES, (IT) Salvation, is a (GIFT) of GOD, least any should BOAST”. I think we should believe that, instead of your self (WORKS) salvation through (FEAR) theology. Let just stay with scripture on this thread, Not you personal Philosophies OK>
peace and love to you and yours………………….gene
To all………..> I am assuming by this thread i am talking to People who Have GOD the FATHER'S Spirit Or His Holy Seed (IN) Them. Not to the unconverted, because they only have ONE NATURE, but the CONVERTED who HAVE BOTH Natures IN THEM, and this tread is to discuses this battle that goes on in us all, as we strive to overcome our flesh Nature, and conform more to our Godly nature. I am trying to establish what we who have GOD'S Spirit Nature or HIS SEED in us are dealing with, with the hope we can draw encouragement from each other and see things that will aid our struggles in overcoming. And keep us from getting discouraged when we fail at times.
False religions has long used failings of people as a means to get control over people and there by giving them control over their lives. Its much like the way the Law works, they use intrepidness by exploiting their failings and weakness, to take control of their lives, Fear is always attached to false religions while FAITH IN GOD and (HIS) POWER TO SAVE is always Down played. This self reliance is the back bone of false teachings and as People fail because they trust in themselves to overcome and can not over come they become further and further enslaved by these false teachers, Look at the Catholic Church as an example of this, they Have no Faith in going directly to GOD the Father and recieve forgiveness, so they go to Priest and confess before Him instead of GOD and He acts like He has the power to forgive them, they have completely given themselves over to there priests Control.
But WE have access to the throne of GRACE in our TIME of Need, We can confess our sins to GOD the FATHER HIMSELF and “he is faithful (to his words) and (WILL) FORGIVE US AND CLEANS US FROM (ALL) SIN. So i want to encourage all of US when we fail to go to the FATHER and Confess our problems with him and ask for forgiveness and Help in our times of need, and Not get discouraged with our short comings but seek help and to use the Spirit of Truth to see the sin in our lives and to ask for help in overcoming them. Remember Jesus said He that Overcomes (THE (WAY) I DID (THE (WAY) I DID). That (WAY) was through the HOLY SPIRIT or HOLY SEED of GOD.
peace and love to you all…………………..gene
martian………Help us understand more clearly the workings of these two Nature (IN) us, how they operate in US Brother. I have had some of my greatest victory's over sins when i Just let go and quite trying any more excepted defeat,and besot GOD FOR his Help and strength. I had a sin once in my life that i tried and tried to overcome and the harder i tried the more i fail, in fact the harder i tried the sin took a greater hold on me then when i first started trying to conquer it, But when i gave up and quite trying and turned it over to GOD in defeat, it was removed from my life, Some instantly, and effected me no more like smoking. While i know when I sin because of Holy Spirit of Truth, It convicts me of it and i have learned to take it to the FATHER and He is will cleans me from that sin, He has did this many times in my life. It has worked for me anyway.
peace and love to you and yours…………………gene
G,
You believe all are saved?
By Magic?No we have to obey and cooperate every step of the way.
No armchair salvation and certainly not for all.Nick……….no way I believe (ALL) are saved (BY) Magic, they are saved by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and the operation of the SPIRIT of GOD, by changing the hearts and minds, now if you disagree with that then you need to take that up with Jesus and GOD and all the apostles and all who are saved by the (OPERATION) of GOD. YOU Self salvation works of fear Just does not work, as you will see in the end. It would be helpful if you would (try) to stay on subject Matter and if you disagree produce scripture instead of your snide remarks OK. And where did i say we do not obey and cooperate with GOD , If we are born of GOD'S Spirit we (WILL) be CAUSED BY the CHANGE of OUR NATURES to do all the things contained in the LAW. Quite trying to make it appear i am saying thing I am not saying. Stay with the subject matter (THE TWO NATURES) CARNAL NATURE AND SPIRITUAL NATURE.
peace and love o you and your………………..gene
G,
All are not saved.
Some pots are destined for the fire.
You have your own nature but can be influencedG,
No man has God operating in and through him unless he is reborn from above.[Jn1.12-13]
The works of Jesus are of no effect to you until you are born again.Nick………Again you jump to conclusions , Please show where i said all (ARE) SAVED. Christ died for the Sins of the (WHOLE) WORLD my bible says, but you seem to think Just you and a Picky little few are the recipient of that. God is only accepting His Sacrifice for Just a pick few. Your argument is with scripture not me. I give you something to chew on seeing you not adding anything encouraging here.
Rom 5:6 …..> for when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ dies for (THE UNGODLY)
Rom 4:5…….> but to him that worketh NOT, but believeth on him that justifieth (THE UNGODLY), his (FAITH) is counted for righteousness.
Chew on that for a while, and come back I can give you much, much, much, more.
Why not try to get into the subject and try edifying us all for a change. Tell us what you think about these two Natures and how we deal with them.
peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene
G,
God did not give His son up for the sake of a free ransom for all.
Those who believe in can become sons of God.Nick…………Where are you coming up with this stuff, who said it was free , It was free to Us but Not to Jesus, it cost him His life. Your problem Nick is with scriptures not me. Nick I believe you just like to argue for the sake of arguing you have offered nothing to this thread, I am going to Just ignore you on the thread for now, ok, Please don't get offended, your just stalling down this thread, and i feel it is important we all talk about it and try to draw encouragement from each other. No offense intended Nick
peace and love to you and yours………………gene
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