Trinity &#8211; t8&#039;s proof text #3

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 23 2007,15:35)

isa1:18 quite changeing subject matter is Jesus at the right hand of the Magisty on High or not. quit dodgeing issues by introducing new ones.

we cant even get started with out you remaning in topic matter its usles nothing can get setteled it's like the old shell game, were playing here. let's slow down and stick to suject matter.???

Is Yeshua at the right hand of the Father? Well yes. Interestingly, the Hebrew concept of “right hand” actually connotes an aspect (or aspects) of equality between two individuals (for more info try here and here). Trinitarians affirm that the Father and Son are different persons, and accept that the Son has a lower position than the Father, but they dispute that He has a lower nature/essence/substance. Psalms 110:1 is not making an ontological statement, so I fail to see how this is an invalidation of the trinity. Maybe you can explain it….

Gene, now that I have addressed your point could you return the favour?

Quote

Gene,
Jesus quoted this verse (Psa 110:1) to the Pharisees:

Matthew 22:42-46
42″What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?” They said to Him, “The son of David.” 43He said to them, “Then how does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying, 44'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET”'? 45″If David then calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his son?” 46No one was able to answer Him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask Him another question.

Do you understand the dilemma Jesus invoked here? Tell me if you know.

Blessings

June 24, 2007 at 5:13 am#56303

Participant

Quote (942767 @ June 24 2007,02:09)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 22 2007,20:01)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 22 2007,12:03)

worshiping jesus > what did David mean when he said, the Lord said unto my Lord sit on my right hand until I make your enimies your foot stool. obioivisly it shows someone on the Lord's right Hand and where is Jesus at now isn't it at the right hand of the Magisty on High does it not say that. so if Jesus is on the right hand of the Magisty on High he obiviously
is not God who is the Magisty on High.

trying to make Jesus the object of worship instead of his God is wrong. worship who Jesus worshiped.

Gene,
Jesus quoted this verse (Psa 110:1) to the Pharisees:

Do you understand the dilemma Jesus invoked here? Tell me if you know.

Hi Isaiah 1:18:

You ask Gene relative to the scripture that you quoted:

Quote

Do you understand the dilemma Jesus invoked here? Tell me if you know.

I'd like to know what dilemma you think that Jesus invoked by this scripture?

Thanks & God Bless

Hi SDN,
I'd like to give our friend Gene Balthrop a chance to answer first and then I'll give mine.

Blessings

June 24, 2007 at 5:22 am#56304

Participant

Quote (t8 @ June 24 2007,12:59)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 22 2007,04:14)

Tell us. When did Jesus “Partake” of the divine nature?

I never said he partook of divine nature. He actually partook of human nature.

except that the Greek word for “partook” is never used of Christ in that context. Maybe that's because it would suggest temporality and take away from the permanency of the event……

June 24, 2007 at 7:21 am#56306

Participant

Hi Is 1.18,
You say
“Trinitarians affirm that the Father and Son are different persons, and accept that the Son has a lower position than the Father, but they dispute that He has a lower nature/essence/substance. Psalms 110:1 is not making an ontological statement, so I fail to see how this is an invalidation of the trinity. “
The invalidation of the trinity theory is that is not written.

June 24, 2007 at 7:50 am#56309

Not3in1

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 24 2007,17:11)

Trinitarians affirm that the Father and Son are different persons, and accept that the Son has a lower position than the Father, but they dispute that He has a lower nature/essence/substance.

Yes, and Trinitarians deny the true conception spoken of in the gospels as well…..

Of course Jesus will have a “lower essence” [of God] than the Father does – remember that Jesus was CONCEIVED. Therefore Jesus is a combination of God and Mary. He is not fully God, nor is he fully man.

Jesus is the Son of God, and the Son of Man.

June 25, 2007 at 5:56 am#56433

GeneBalthrop

Participant

isa 1;18 > ILL TAKE A STAB AT TRYING TO ANSWER TRICKY POST ON jESUS BEING THE SON OF David and David calling him Lord.

first of all notice Jesus did not use his physical name did he, he used the word Christ, which means anointed one, Jesus had two births one was physical and one spritual. David spoke in spirit and in a spritual sense the Christ is his lord by placement of God the Father. Had Jesus used the word Jesus in a physical sense David would have Been his father. because scripture planily say's he would be a decendent of King David. We two have two births one of flesh and one of holy spirit dosen't it say brothern NOW are the sons of GOD.

God has placed His uniquely begotten SON Lord over all except Himself. I have no problem with it do you. what are you trying to say. Gene

June 25, 2007 at 8:29 am#56461

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 25 2007,17:56)

isa 1;18 > ILL TAKE A STAB AT TRYING TO ANSWER TRICKY POST ON jESUS BEING THE SON OF David and David calling him Lord.

God has placed His uniquely begotten SON Lord over all except Himself. I have no problem with it do you. what are you trying to say. Gene

Alright Gene, I appreciated the fact that you put your neck on the line and answered. But I do find your reasoning odd and your exegesis more than a little strained. I think the answer is a little more straight forward.

Matthew 22:42-46
42″What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?” They said to Him, “The son of David.” 43He said to them, “Then how does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying, 44'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I PUT YOUR ENEMIES BENEATH YOUR FEET”'? 45”If David then calls Him 'Lord,' how is He his son?” 46No one was able to answer Him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask Him another question.

The reasons I think the pharisees were utterly confounded were twofold:

1. It's overtly contradictory within the context of Jewish culture for the predecessor to address his descendant as “Lord”, since the Jewish patriach is always superior to his descendants. This implies that the Messiah was greater than David in a sense outside of his humanity.

2. David called Him “My Lord” in the passage, thus implying that He was his Lord at the time that he penned the Psalm (but was not yet an earthly figure). Therefore the Messiah pre-existed his entry into humanity.

On this verse, Barnes' Notes records this:

Quote

If David … – If he was then David' s lord if he was his superior – if he had an existence at that time how could he be descended from him? They could not answer him.

Nor is there any way of answering the question but by the admission that the Messiah was divine as well as human; that he had an existence at the time of David, and was his lord and master, his God I and king, and that as man he was descended from him.
http://bibletools.org/….]

Jesus used Psalms 110:1 to invoke a dilemma of authority. David would not logically call the Messiah his “Lord” if he were merely a man. Furthermore he would not address him as “my Lord” if was not yet in existence. That is why “no one was able to answer Him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask Him another question”. Jesus forcibly asserted his divinity from the scriptures in a way that did not allow for counterargument.

Blessings

June 25, 2007 at 10:31 am#56463

Participant

Hi Is 1.18,
I agree except that it has nothing to do with any kind of implied divinity.

Ps 110
“1The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

2The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

3Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. “

This is clearly prophetic of the rule of Christ in the seat of David.

Christ was before David, and will be in the prophectic psalm, Lord of all including the risen David.
Christ is in the day of his power, ruling in the midst of the nations.

Compare Ps 2
“1Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

3Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

4He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.

5Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

10Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

11Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

12Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him”
And ps 45
“6Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.”

And Ezek 19
” 14'And fire has gone out from its branch;
It has consumed its shoots and fruit,
So that there is not in it a strong branch,
A scepter to rule.'”
This is a lamentation, and has become a lamentation. “

June 25, 2007 at 11:59 am#56464

Participant

Quote (t8 @ June 24 2007,16:55)

Quote (Cult Buster @ June 14 2007,03:20)

So tell us t8. Is the Holy Ghost a true God or a false God?

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God.

Hi t8.

It seems that you have a dilemma.

The Spirit of God is also the Spirit of Christ.

Therefore Christ must be God.

Phi 1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

June 25, 2007 at 12:12 pm#56465

Participant

Let's try again!

Compare
Psa 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,
Psa 95:8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Psa 95:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
Psa 95:10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways:
Psa 95:11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

With
Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Heb 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
Heb 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Conclusion. The Holy Ghost = God

Compare
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD(JEHOVAH) I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD (JEHOVAH): for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD (JEHOVAH): for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

With
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Conclusion. The Holy Ghost = Jehovah

So tell us t8. Is the Holy Ghost a true God or a false God?

Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

June 25, 2007 at 6:54 pm#56476

Participant

Quote (Cult Buster @ June 25 2007,23:59)

Quote (t8 @ June 24 2007,16:55)

Quote (Cult Buster @ June 14 2007,03:20)

So tell us t8. Is the Holy Ghost a true God or a false God?

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God.

Hi t8.

It seems that you have a dilemma.

The Spirit of God is also the Spirit of Christ.

Therefore Christ must be God.

Phi 1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Hi CB,
Christ died.
God cannot die.
Christ gave up his own spirit but was raised by the faithful Spirit of God that had been given to him at the Jordan.
We follow the firstborn from the dead and join with the assembly of the firstborn as sons of the resurrection.
Will you be there?

July 10, 2007 at 12:35 pm#59081

Participant

Another one for you t8. Maybe I'll get a response this time.

2Sa 23:1 Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,
2Sa 23:2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.
2Sa 23:3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.

Conclusion. The Holy Ghost = The God of Israel

Conclusion. The Holy Ghost = God

Conclusion. The Holy Ghost = Jehovah

So tell us t8. Is the Holy Ghost a true God or a false God?

Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

July 10, 2007 at 6:54 pm#59110

Participant

Hi CB,
Why would you make the Spirit of God into another false God?
There is one true God, the Father.

July 16, 2007 at 7:13 am#60064

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (Cult Buster @ June 25 2007,23:59)

Quote (t8 @ June 24 2007,16:55)

Quote (Cult Buster @ June 14 2007,03:20)

So tell us t8. Is the Holy Ghost a true God or a false God?

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God.

Hi t8.

It seems that you have a dilemma.

The Spirit of God is also the Spirit of Christ.

Therefore Christ must be God.

Phi 1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

It's not hard to understand.

Jesus is one with God in spirit and we can be one in spirit and one with them.

Are we not one in the Spirit?

Are we God?

If Christ is in us and God is in us, then how? Does Christ have a spirit?

July 16, 2007 at 7:15 am#60066

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (Cult Buster @ June 26 2007,00:12)

So tell us t8. Is the Holy Ghost a true God or a false God?

God is Spirit and God is holy.

What is God? He is the Holy Spirit.
Who is God, he is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

July 16, 2007 at 11:45 am#60074

Casiphus

Participant

Quote

Conclusion. The Holy Ghost = Jehovah

Hi CB,

While that is one way of interpreting the texts, another is that the writer of Hebrews was using a figure of speech here, rather than actually making a doctrinal statement – where the Holy Ghost in this passage is not the “I” in the prophecy, but rather the one who quickened Jeremiah, or the Psalmist, etc., to prophecy.

Regardless of who the author of a text was – whether the Spirit of God or the traditionally attributed author – the meaning itself should not change. Jeremiah was not the “I”, regardless of being the author, so a simple substitution of the Holy Ghost as author should not change the reading of the text.

I think also, the above literary style being rather antiquated, the text can seem misleading. In modern English literary style we might write it something like:

The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says: “This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.” Then he adds: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.“

Which is to say that the Narrator (the Holy Spirit in this case) is distinct from the Subject, the “I” (the Lord in this case).

July 16, 2007 at 7:32 pm#60094

Participant

Quote (Casiphus @ July 16 2007,23:45)

Quote

Conclusion. The Holy Ghost = Jehovah

Hi CB,

I think also, the above literary style being rather antiquated, the text can seem misleading. In modern English literary style we might write it something like:

Which is to say that the Narrator (the Holy Spirit in this case) is distinct from the Subject, the “I” (the Lord in this case).

Hi CB,
Did you not know the Spirit is as the finger of God?[Lk11 cf mt12]
The Spirit of God was at work in the sons of God but was not worshiped, rather helping them worship God.[Rom8]

July 16, 2007 at 10:39 pm#60123

Participant

God the Holy Ghost dwells in you. Comparisons.

Compare

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

With

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Compare

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

With

2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Compare

1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

With

1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

It is quite ridiculous really to say that the Holy Spirit is just the spiritual presence of the Father or the Son or of both. At the baptism of Jesus the Three were manifested there. The Father spoke from heaven, Jesus was in the water being baptized, and the Holy Spirit came down upon Jesus like a dove. The Father and Jesus needed no spiritual presence of any third party.

Remember too the baptismal formula Jesus gave at Matthew 28:19 – “baptizing them in the name (authority) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” Blind Freddy can surely see that there are Three Persons in the Heavenly Trio.

July 16, 2007 at 10:40 pm#60124