Trinity – t8's proof text #3

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May 20, 2007 at 3:32 am#52651

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This discussion will start with a post from myself, followed by a post from Isaiah. After Isaiah has made his post, other members are free to give feedback on this scripture or the arguments made by myself or Isaiah.

Isaiah can PM me when he is ready to post his rebuttal.

Thanks.

1 John 4:12
No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

This scripture is a slap in the face for those who promote the Trinity Doctrine.

The Trinity Doctrine states that there is one God (in substance) but 3 persons. In other words this one substance contains 3 persons. When Trinitarians pray with a Trinitarian understanding, technically speaking they must be praying to the one substance if they call God a HIM and then they feel free to address any of these three members singularly or together.

It goes something like this: “Dear Jesus; thank you Father; may your Spirit be with me; I ask you Jesus; thanks God”. Anyway, besides this obvious confusion and non-alignment with the way Jesus taught us to pray, the point here is that they can address any of the 3 members as God.

The problem though is that we are taught in scripture that God is invisible as the proof text quoted above states, yet Trinitarians must believe that God is visible (because Jesus is visible and they say he is God). So they obviously pray to a visible God or a God who people have seen. But scripture clearly teaches that God is invisible. Here we have yet another contradiction, if we accept the Trinity Doctrine. It again creates confusion and contradiction.

In case you think there may be a problem with 1 John 4:12 in that it may be an isolated scripture that is difficult to understand or translate, I will quote 2 more witness scriptures to back this scripture up in order to prove it is a true teaching.

They are as follows:

1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

The above scripture clearly teaches that the ONLY God is INVISIBLE. (I could write an essay on this one point alone).

& John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

The point I wish to make, if it is not already obvious to you, is that God is invisible according to scripture and Yeshua obviously is not.

Not only do we have the witness of the apostles and Christians of the first century who saw Yeshua in bodily form as a man, but scripture also reinforces that Yeshua is as a visible being, unlike God who is invisible.

E.g., John 1:14
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

The above scripture confirms both points I have made.

God is invisble
Yeshua is visible

In case the point is lost, I should point out that visible and invisible are opposites and no one can be visible to people and yet be invisible to the degree that no one has seen him.

If Isaiah (my opponent in this debate), makes the argument that Yeshua was visible because he took on human form, (in other words the invisible God put on a visible body), then I will rebut that assumption with the following scriptures that show that Yeshua is very much a visible being even now whilst in heavenly glory (the glory he had before), and seated at the right hand of God.

Matthew 26:64
“Yes, it is as you say,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Acts 7:55
But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.

(Notice that Stephen didn’t actually see God.)

Revelation 1:14
His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.

Now I expect that Isaiah will try and nullify the scriptures that teach that God is invisible and no one has seen him, by quoting other scriptures that seem to say that people actually saw God. In other words Isaiah may try and ignore these scriptures by using other ones. The purpose here is to ignore these scriptures entirely and paint a different truth from different scriptures.

Of course such action should be shunned by any believer who loves the truth, because we should understand that truth cannot contradict itself and therefore no scripture should be shunned. So rather than agreeing that God is invisible and Yeshua isn’t, and therefore cannot by that reason be the invisible God, Isaiah will introduce other scriptures that seem to contradict these scriptures.

But where do such scriptures exist. Well we know in the Old Testament there are a bunch of scriptures that talk about men who claim to have seen God.

If I was to ask anyone familiar with the bible to name one man that saw God, many would surely answer Moses.

But did Moses actually see God himself? Or did Moses see God’s glory and a representative of God?

Well the answer is that latter. Moses spoke to YHWH, but through the messenger/angel of YHWH.

Let us read:

Exodus 3:1-14
Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the desert and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.
2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.
3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight-why the bush does not burn up.”
4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!” And Moses said, “Here I am.”
5 “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.”
6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God…

Now look at Acts 7:30 as confirmation of who Moses actually saw with his eyes:
“After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.

Now Isaiah may be able to make the argument that there are other instances where a man or woman is said to have seen God and with no reference to the messenger/angel of YHWH. But what does that prove? It proves nothing. If Exodus for example had failed to mention that Moses actually saw the angel of YHWH, would that mean that Moses actually saw God? Of course it wouldn’t. The truth that Moses saw the Angel of YHWH and not God himself wouldn’t change at all if such detail were omitted or not mentioned. So it isn’t hard to see in this context that if other instances where there is a lack of such detail, it doesn’t mean that we can assume that someone actually saw God can it? If you did that, you would only be in a state of confusion because you would have to ignore the scriptures that say God is invisible and in the back of your mind you would have a contradiction that cannot be ignored.

We see in the Old Testament how prophets of old fell to the ground at the mere sight of an angel and the sight of the angel of the LORD must be so glorious that one could easily utter the words “I have seen God” or even think that they saw God, but what such a person is really seeing is the glory of God. Remember Stephens witness before he was stoned to death: “But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God”.

Stephen saw the glory of God and Yeshua at the right hand of God. So he saw Yeshua and the glory of God. But he didn’t actually see God himself did he? Stephen didn’t say that he saw God the son, or say that he saw God while referring to Yeshua. Stephen didn’t see God himself because scripture plainly states that “No one has ever seen God”, so therefore no one can see God can they?

A Trinitarian, by reason of his predefined belief that Jesus is God, cannot truly accept the truth that no one can see God because it is common knowledge that Jesus is a visible being, not an invisible one.

So let us see how Isaiah tries to convince us in his reply on how we can see God the second member of the God substance committee, even though we know we cannot see God.
Bear in mind that when he does it, he will be completely violating the scriptures that plainly teach that no one can see God.

I finish with 2 more scriptures to show that God who we know is invisible is in fact none other than the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. He is the true God.

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

So to conclude:

No one can see God, except the son. This seems like one good reason as to why he is the only one who can declare him and why he is the only mediator between God and man.

God is invisible and the closest thing we can see that represents God is his son, who is visible. When we see the son we see the glory of God. We know that even creation itself shows God’s glory, but Yeshua is surely the greatest glory of God that can be revealed.

I finish with the following scripture that sums it up for me:

2 Corinthians 4:6
For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

May 20, 2007 at 5:05 am#52655

Admin

Keymaster

Awaiting Isaiah's reply.

June 1, 2007 at 10:28 am#54363

Is 1:18

Participant

Let me preface this rebuttal by saying congratulations t8, this is without doubt your best effort to date, and finally we’ve moved away from the verses that (in your mind) disprove the trinity, but in reality merely show The Father and Son are two different persons.

Let me see if I can accurately encapsulate the key point of you post with this syllogism:

Major premise: YHWH is invisible, and has not ever been seen by men.
Minor premise: Christ was and is visible. He has been seen by men.
Conclusion: Therefore Christ cannot be God.

On the surface this looks like a logical dilemma for a trinitarian. If it’s true that God has never been seen then, ostensibly, it puts trinitarians in a tight spot. In logic, the law of noncontradiction (also called the law of contradiction) states that “one cannot say of something that it is and that it is not in the same respect and at the same time”. And it would indeed be a contravention of this law of logic if both the minor and major premises above hold true.

But is it true that YHWH has never been seen? T8 maintains that it is, and qualified the assertion by writing that men have occasionally seen a “messenger/angel” of YHWH. But is this born out by OT texts? I don’t think it is and I’ll cite five passages where it is indisputable that YHWH has been seen:

1. Genesis 18:1,8,13-14,17-19,20-21,26,33
1Now the LORD (YHWH) appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 8He took curds and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and placed it before them; and he was standing by them under the tree as they ate. 13And the LORD (YHWH) said to Abraham, “Why did Sarah laugh, saying, ‘Shall I indeed bear a child, when I am so old?’ 14”Is anything too difficult for the LORD (YHWH)? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son.”17The LORD (YHWH) said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, 18since Abraham will surely become a great and mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed? 19”For Ihave chosen him, so that he may command his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing righteousness and justice, so that the LORD may bring upon Abraham what He has spoken about him.” 20And the LORD (YHWH) said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. 21″I will go down now, and see if they have done entirely according to its outcry,which has come to Me; and if not, I will know.” 26So the LORD said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare the whole place on their account.”33As soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham the LORD (YHWH departed, and Abraham returned to his place.

T8 would argue that this is not YHWH in view here but a “representative of God”, but that is NOT what the text says. It reads : “The LORD appeared unto him”. There are no grammatical ambiguities here, the language is plain.

In the above text we have the following clearly recorded:

YHWH appeared to Abraham (v1)
YHWH ate with Abraham (v8)
YHWH spoke to Abraham (v13)
YHWH and Abraham negotiated over the Sodom’s fate (v26ff)
YHWH departed from Abraham’s presence (v33)

What’s striking about this narrative is that the person designated YHWH, frequently employed first person singular pronoun “I” when speaking. He also implicitly claimed for Himself sovereign rights that are exclusive to YHWH. For instance, in verse 19 the personage identified in the text as YHWH declared that He has chosen Abraham to be the conduit for Israel’s blessings. Can a non-divine delegate rightly state this? The answer is no. Furthermore, in verse 26 this person negotiated with Abraham over the Sodom’s fate and YHWH conceded that He would spare the whole place on account of 50 righteous men? Does a non-divine appointee of YHWH have the mandate to make a decision on the annihilation of an entire city? Again, it’s no. A non-divine messenger would not speak this way at all. He would say something akin to “If the LORD finds in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then He will spare all the place for their sakes”. No messenger can rightly speak as this One spoke, unless it was YHWH that was speaking. What we see in Genesis 18 is multiple instances where Abraham’s visitor speaks as YHWH, not for YHWH. And that’s a key distinction to highlight. So, not only is the visitor explicitly called YHWH in the passage, he is also ascribed the authority/prerogatives that exclusively belong to YHWH. The details in this chapter overwhelmingly affirm that YHWH visited Abraham by the oaks of Mamre.

Despite the overt clarity of the text though, t8 would say it’s impossible for YHWH to do the things ascribed to Him in Genesis 18, to this I’ll counter with the rhetorical question YHWH posed to Abraham in the very same chapter I quoted:

“Is anything too difficult for the LORD?”

YHWH can take the form of a man and enter our time-space continuum. It’s not “too difficult” for YHWH to doanything that does not compromise His Holy nature, and we should not unduly seek to place limitations on the Almighty God that scripture does not place. The personage that visited Abraham really was YHWH, not a minion sent on YHWH’s behalf. But how do we know this for certain? YHWH tells us so in Exodus 6:3.

2. Exodus 6:2-3
2 God spoke further to Moses and said to him, “I am the LORD;3 and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty[/b], but by My name LORD I did not make myself known to them.”

YHWH appeared to Abraham as God Almighty (el shadday). It cannot be said more plainly, YHWH “appeared” to Abraham not in the form of a non-divine messenger but as YHWH, God Almighty. Should we believe the statement YHWH has made here? I think we should take YHWH at His word.

YHWH also interacted with Moses, speaking to Him “face to face”:

3. Exodus 33:11
Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend…”

Is it possible to speak with someone “face to face” and not see them? YHWH reiterates this in Numbers 12:6-8, using even more descriptive language:

4. Numbers 12:6-8
6 He [YHWH] said, “Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall speak with him in a dream. 7 Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My household; 8 with him I speak mouth to mouth, even openly, and not in dark sayings, and hebeholds the form of the LORD . . . “

Here Moses is NOT spoken to in a dream or vision like some of the other prophets but rather “mouth to mouth”, YHWH goes on to say that He allows Moses to behold (look intently at) the form of the LORD. Again, it could not be more plainly stated that Moses saw YHWH.

Moreover, on at least one occasion YHWH was seen by a multitude of people:

5. Exodus 24:9-11
9Then Moses went up with Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel;10 and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. 11 Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they beheld God, and they ate and drank.”

Again we have very clear and precise language being used. No one could honestly mistake the meanings of these two phrases:

“they saw the God of Israel”
“they beheld God”

So has YHWH been seen? Evidently so! It’s difficult to discount even one of the above passages, let alone all five of them, and what I annotated is by no means the sum total of passages in the Bible that show YHWH has been seen by men. It’s just a selection of some of them.

So where does this place t8, and his assertion that the Father has not been seen? In a tight spot, as I would see it. He is faced with a glaring contradiction for which he has offered no tenable explanation. The trinitarians, as opposed to t8, have an explanation for this.

From a trinitarian’s perspective, I see two possible scenarios that could account for the contravention between 1 John 4:12 and the passages I cited:

1. It’s true that the Father has never been seen but another, also named YHWH, has.
2.The word theos in 1 John 4:12 does not refer to the Father, but the triune God.

I think both are plausible, but on balance I would favour #1. This is because in consulting passages penned by John of the same basis theme (as 1 John 4:12) it’s explicit that “theos” does refer to the father. These three verses bear this out expressly:

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 5:37
And the Father who sent Me, He has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His form.

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

So on this point let me state that I concur with t8, no one has ever seen the Father, this appears to be the only logical conclusion to draw from John’s writings above. But it’s even more scripturally obvious that men have seen YHWH. Which begs the question – if not he Father, then Who was the person described as YHWH that has been seen? I surmise that the only reasonable candidate is the preincarnate Yeshua. We know from Paul and John’s writings that Yeshua existed in the “form” (nature) of God and “was God” (Phil 2:6, John 1:1). We know from Hebrews chapter 1 that He has the credentials to be YHWH, and from Zechariah chapter 14 that he is rightly called YHWH. We also know that Yeshua featured in the OT (John 5:39, 46). I think He featured prominently, more than most people imagine and I cite this passage as evidence of this proposition:

Luke 24:13-27
13And behold, two of them were going that very day to a village named Emmaus, which was about seven miles from Jerusalem. 14And they were talking with each other about all these things which had taken place. 15While they were talking and discussing, Jesus Himself approached and began traveling with them. 16But their eyes were prevented from recognizing Him. 17And He said to them, “What are these words that you are exchanging with one another as you are walking?” And they stood still, looking sad. 18One of them, named Cleopas, answered and said to Him, “Are You the only one visiting Jerusalem and unaware of the things which have happened here in these days?” 19And He said to them, “What things?” And they said to Him, “The things about Jesus the Nazarene, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word in the sight of God and all the people, 20and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to the sentence of death, and crucified Him. 21″But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, it is the third day since these things happened. 22″But also some women among us amazed us. When they were at the tomb early in the morning, 23and did not find His body, they came, saying that they had also seen a vision of angels who said that He was alive. 24″Some of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just exactly as the women also had said; but Him they did not see.”25And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26″Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?” 27Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

There are some important points to take from this passage, the first being that this was an extensive Bible lesson that Yeshua gave these men. The walk was seven miles (approx. 12km) long and this would have taken hours to complete (about 3 ½ hours at the average human walking pace of 1 meter per second). The topic of the Yeshua’s study was Himself, as He was described in the OT scriptures. But the material He spoke about was not restricted to a few messianic passages from the Torah. Luke explained that the material that Yeshua used in His dissertation began at Moses, proceeded through all the prophets and in fact encompassed “all the scriptures”. In other words Yeshua had A LOT of material at His disposal to draw upon to explain to the men the things in the Bible that pertained to Himself! Details like this should not be overlooked.

Yeshua also made comments such as:

Matthew 23:37
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

I don’t think this was a reference to His earthly existence, the language doesn’t fit. He spoke the same way YHWH spoke of the Israelite in the OT. I think Yeshua, here in verse 37, implicitly claims to have foreknowledge of, and a vested interest in, the Israelites before His incarnation. It’s interesting that He invoking the idiom of “wings” in the context of a desire to protect, an idiom that was commonly ascribed to YHWH to describe the protection/refuge He offered (refer: Ruth 2:12, Psalm 17:8, 36:7, 57:1, 61:4, 63:7, 91:4).

Jude 5, is perhaps a more explicit example:

Jude 4-5
4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.5Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

Jude, in verse 4 of his letter, used the appellative “kurios” to denote Yeshua in an exclusive sense (“our only Lord”)and “theos” was used in reference to His Father. Then in the very next next verse kurios was used to describe an identity who saved “a people out of the land of Egypt”, with “the people” being an obvious reference to Israel. The Lord here is clearly Yeshua! Early and reliable manuscripts have “Jesus” in place of “the Lord” in verse 5. Here is what the NET Bible Commentary on Jude 5 records about this verse:

” The reading *Ihsou'” (Ihsous, “Jesus”) is deemed too hard by several scholars, since it involves the notion of Jesus acting in the early history of the nation Israel. However, not only does this reading enjoy strong support from a variety of early witnesses (e.g., A B 33 81 vg et alii), but the plethora of variants demonstrate that scribes were uncomfortable with it, for they typically exchanged kuvrio” (kurios, “Lord”) or qeov” (qeos, “God”) for *Ihsou'” (though Ì72 has the intriguing reading qeoV” Cristov” [qeos Cristos, “God Christ”] for *Ihsou'”). As difficult as the reading *Ihsou'” is, in light of v. 4 and in light of the progress of revelation (Jude being one of the last books in the NT to be composed), it is wholly appropriate. sn (1:5) The construction our Master and Lord, Jesus Christ in v. 4 follows Granville Sharp’s rule (see tn (1:5) on Lord). The construction strongly implies the deity of Christ. This is followed by a statement that Jesus was involved in the salvation (and later judgment) of the Hebrews. He is thus to be identified with the Lord God, Yahweh. Verse 5, then, simply fleshes out what is implicit in v. 4.”

John, who penned the verse on which t8’s proof text is based also believed Yeshua existed as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the flesh. He, alluding to Isaiah 6, wrote:

John 12:37-41
37But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.[/u] 41These things said Esaias, when he saw his [Christ’s] glory, and spake of him [Christ].

This was the passage of Isaiah 6 that John quoted:

Isaiah 6:1-10
1In the year that king Uzziah died I [Isaiah] saw also the LORD [YHWH] sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. 3And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. 4And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. 5Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD [YHWH] of hosts. 6Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: 7And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. 8Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. 9And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

The “Him” in John 12:41 can only be the pre-incarnate Yeshua, He is unambiguously identified at the subjectof the passage in verse John 12 v37, by virtue of being the nearest antecedent to verse 41. The “His” in this verse refers to Yeshua. The subject of the Isaiah passage is patently identified as YHWH. The subject of the John 12:37-41 passage is unmistakably Yeshua. It is obvious to me that John considered Jesus to be YHWH. I see no other plausible explanation.

“These things Isaiah said because he saw His (Yeshua’s = YHWH’s) glory, and he spoke of Him (Yeshua = YHWH).”

Yeshua is also described as the Creator of Heaven and Earth in the NT, as my first debate submission outlined:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….78;st=0

And He fulfilled prophecies that could only be fulfilled by YHWH, as was the subject of my second submission:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….11;st=0

So, there is very good evidence to substantiate my assertion that it was the pre-incarnate Yehsua that appeared to men as YHWH in the OT. This would make sense of the verse t8 used for his proof text – 1 John 4:12 – and properly accounts for the contradiction t8 faces which is God not being able to be seen, yet at the same time being seen.

So at this point I pose this rhetorical question – after considering some of the passages cited thus far in my rebuttal, is 1 John 4:12 more problematic for trinitarians, or t8 himself??

I suggest that the explicit nature of passages like Genesis Ch 18, where Abraham’s visitor is designated with the tetragammatron “YHWH” in the text and the divine prerogatives, such as deciding the fate of a city and appointing whom is to become the conduit for blessing on an entire nation, are predicated of Him, mean that scriptures like 1 John 4:12 are far more difficult for a henotheist like t8 than a trinitarian. When his argument to explain the OT texts that overtly contradict 1 John 4:12 are distilled down to it’s basic essence, what we are left with is this – scripture is not saying what it manifestly appears to say. But, IMO, the sheer weight of evidence for YHWH being seen by men overwhelms his contention that He wasn’t.

At this point I should address this point t8 made:

Quote

But where do such scriptures exist. Well we know in the Old Testament there are a bunch of scriptures that talk about men who claim to have seen God.If I was ask anyone familiar with the bible to name one man that saw God, many would surely answer Moses.But did Moses actually see God himself? Or did Moses see God’s glory and a representative of God?Well the answer is that latter. Moses spoke to YHWH, but through the messenger/angel of YHWH.Exodus 3:1-14
Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the desert and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.
2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.
3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight-why the bush does not burn up.”
4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!” And Moses said, “Here I am.”
5 “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.”
6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God…

Moses had an encounter with YHWH in this passage. How do we know? In verse 6 we read “”I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.”. It can’t be plainer than that really…..the identity in the bush explicitly introduces Himself as YHWH and furthermore commands Moses to take off his shoes because he was standing on Holy ground. Is the ground in which a delegate for YHWH appears Holy? No. So once again we have an instance where the “angel of the Lord” speaks AS YHWH, not FOR YHWH. The “angel of the Lord” often appears in OT scripture AS YHWH. Remember that the Hebrews word for angel (malak) simply mean ‘messenger’ and is used in reference to men, the hosts of Heaven (actual created angels) and YHWH. From a trinitarian perspective one member of the triune God can legitimately send another and He would be both “YHWH” and the messenger of YHWH. This makes sense of a lot of passages in which the titles “YHWH” and the angel of YHWH are used interchangeably in the text and the messenger, without hesitation naturally assumes the prerogative/authority of YHWH (which of course is patent blasphemy for anyone who is not YHWH). There are a great number of passages I could appeal to here, but Genesis 22:15-18 is perhaps one of the most best:

Genesis 22:11-18
11But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.”12He said, “Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” 13Then Abraham raised his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him a ram caught in the thicket by his horns; and Abraham went and took the ram and offered him up for a burnt offering in the place of his son. 14Abraham called the name of that place The LORD Will Provide, as it is said to this day, “In the mount of the LORD it will be provided.” 15Then the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven, 16and said, “By Myself I have sworn, declares the LORD, because you have done this thing and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18″In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.”

Just a few quick observations about this text:

LORD (YHWH) and “the angel of the LORD (YHWH)” are used interchangeably.
The angel of the LORD declared that Abraham withheld the sacrifice of his Son from HIM. Abraham, of course, was sacrificing His Son for YHWH.
The angel of the LORD swore “by Myself”, with the next verse making it plain that it was YHWH that swore.
The angel prophesied that He would greatly bless Abraham, making a great nation out of his seed, and by this multiplication of his seed all the nations would be blessed. ONLY YHWH can rightly make these claims. It would be audacious and presumptuous for a messenger who is not YHWH utter such a prophecy.
The angel of the LORD declared that the entire Earth would be blessed because Abraham obeyed his voice.

There is no question at all that the angel of the LORD was YHWH, representatives Who are not YHWH can not rightly speak the way the “angel of the Lord” did. They unequivocally would not use first person, singular pronouns (myself, I) when making proclamations that only YHWH can rightly make and bring about. They simply do not have this right.

So to quickly summarise, I dispute t8’s assertion that YHWH has never been seen. YHWH has indeed been seen – He appeared to Moses “as God Almighty” (Ex 6:3). I also gave an explanation for the ostensible contradiction that exists between the ‘God has been seen’ and ‘God has not ever been seen’ passages, and I think it’s far more plausible and faithful to the scriptures as a whole than t8’s postulation. Remember T8’s objective in this debate is to produce credible evidence disproving the trinity, but he has categorically failed to do this, in fact the verse he used (1 John 4:12) gives credence to the validity of the doctrine, as considered alongside the verses I cited it implies that YHWH has been seen by men, BUT it was NOT the person of the Father. Who else fits the bill if not the preincarnate Yeshua? If YHWH is triune then one member can use another as a representative, and the personage sent is both YHWH and the messenger (malak) of YHWH at the same time. Given the explicit nature of the texts that affirm YHWH has been seen, I content that the major premise of the syllogism (YHWH is invisible, and has not ever been seen by men) is patently false, therefore your argument is invalidated on this basis.

Blessings

June 1, 2007 at 12:30 pm#54364

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 02 2007,17:28)

Quote

This scripture is a slap in the face for those who promote the Trinity Doctrine.

….once read “This scripture is a slap in the face with a wet bus ticket

Yes I removed that because I realised it might be confusing to non NZ citizens. Of course this change didn't change the post in the respect of what was being debated. I also made some grammatical changes, fixed up about 5 spelling mistakes, and if I remember rightly a restructure of 2 sentences. I didn't change my message at all, I just made it a bit clearer with less mistakes.

Editing posts is actually there for such reasons.

What I frown upon are those who change their posts meaning after others have posted. That wastes everyones time.

Anyway, I wil read your post fully, later this weekend. It is about 12.30 am, so I better get some sleep.

June 1, 2007 at 12:52 pm#54367

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (t8 @ May 21 2007,12:03)

OK, I had a sneak preview and it stood out to me that Is did the very thing that I said he would. That he would nullify scripture by using other scriptures that seem to say otherwise.

So at least at this stage he must be confused as to which scriptures are correct and which are not.

I also said the following and it seems to have come to pass.

Quote

Now Isaiah may be able to make the argument that there are other instances where a man or woman is said to have seen God and with no reference to the messenger/angel of YHWH. But what does that prove? It proves nothing. If Exodus for example had failed to mention that Moses actually saw the angel of YHWH, would that mean that Moses actually saw God? Of course it wouldn't. The truth that Moses saw the Angel of YHWH and not God himself wouldn't change at all if such detail were omitted or not mentioned. So it isn't hard to see in this context that if other instances where there is a lack of such detail, it doesn't mean that we can assume that someone actually saw God can it? If you did that, you would only be in a state of confusion because you would have to ignore the scriptures that say God is invisible and in the back of your mind you would have a contradiction that cannot be ignored.

June 2, 2007 at 2:12 am#54399

942767

Participant

Hi Isaiah and t8:

Joh 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

The above scripture says that no man has seen God at any time. I believe that you, Isaiah would have to agree that “no man has seen the Father at any time” which John 6:46 indicates the Father, but the above scripture states definitively “no man has seen God at any time”, and so any time the scripture states that they saw God or that God appeared to someone in some form such in the burning bush, or in a cloud or a pillar of fire or through messengers. Below is the scripture relative to God speaking to Moses face to face. Let's see what it says.

Exodus 33:8
And it came to pass, when Moses went out unto the tabernacle, that all the people rose up, and stood every man at his tent door, and looked after Moses, until he was gone into the tabernacle.
33:9
And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses.

HERE WE SEE THAT GOD WAS IN THE CLOUDY PILLAR.
33:10
And all the people saw the cloudy pillar stand at the tabernacle door: and all the people rose up and worshipped, every man in his tent door.
33:11
And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

AND SO, WHAT THIS IS SAYING IS THAT GOD SPOKE TO MOSES OUT OF THE PILLAR IN AN AUDIBLE VOICE AND MOSES TALKED WITH HIM. JUST AS ANY TWO INDIVIDUALS WOULD HOLD A CONVERSATION.

33:20
And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
BUT HERE HE TELLS MOSES THAT NO MAN CAN SEE HIS FACE AND LIVE.

33:21
And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
33:22
And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
33:23
And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

HOW MOSES SAW HIS BACK PARTS IS NOT CLEAR. WHETHER OR NOT HE WAS STILL IN THE CLOUD, IT ISN'T CLEAR.

There are visions of the Lord Jesus in the Old Testament, and these we see him as a man, and so this is prophetic since the scripture states that Eve is the mother of all living, and we do not see Jesus born of a woman until he was born of the Virgin Mary.

Israel.

Isa 6:1
In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

This is one that Isaiah pointed out, and I do believe that there are others but I believe that they are prophetic, just as the vision of the city “New Jerusalem” is prophetic, and just as the scripture states that:

Joh 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and HE WILL SHEW YOU THINGS TO COME.

God Bless

June 2, 2007 at 10:49 am#54430

NickHassan

Participant

Hi Is 1.18,
You said and quoted
“John 12:37-41
37But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.[/u] 41These things said Esaias, when he saw his [Christ’s] glory, and spake of him [Christ].

This was the passage of Isaiah 6 that John quoted:

Isaiah 6:1-10
1In the year that king Uzziah died I [Isaiah] saw also the LORD [YHWH] sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. 3And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. 4And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. 5Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD [YHWH] of hosts. 6Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: 7And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. 8Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. 9And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.”

Why do you put “Christ” twice in the first verse from John in brackets when his name is not there in any of the manuscripts ? Is that not an unwise assumption considering that the only comparable verse in Rev 4 seems rather to show it is the throne of God?

June 2, 2007 at 4:47 pm#54440

kenrch

Participant

WOW! You three are having a ball, aren't you!

June 2, 2007 at 10:04 pm#54459

NickHassan

Participant

Hi 94
You say
“There are visions of the Lord Jesus in the Old Testament, and these we see him as a man, and so this is prophetic since the scripture states that Eve is the mother of all living, and we do not see Jesus born of a woman until he was born of the Virgin Mary.”

So where is anyone identified as Jesus seen in the OT?
Or are you assuming this is so? Is that wise?

June 3, 2007 at 2:02 pm#54486

Cult Buster

Participant

Nick

Quote

So where is anyone identified as Jesus seen in the OT?
Or are you assuming this is so? Is that wise?

Nick. Do yourself a favor and read your Bible.

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

June 3, 2007 at 2:24 pm#54488

Cult Buster

Participant

Moses did see God (Christ) face to face, but most of God's glory was veiled so that Moses could bear it and live.

Moses later asked God
Exo 33:13 Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight: and consider that this nation is thy people.

God replied
Exo 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exo 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
Exo 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
Exo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

For God to show Moses all His goodness Moses had to be shielded again, this time by the cleft of the rock. If Moses saw God's unvield face with ALL His goodness unshielded he would have perished.

So you see, Moses did see God (Christ) face to face, but God's glory and goodness was veiled to protect Moses.

In all the examples where God (Christ) did appear to people, He appeared in a veiled or partial manner, not in His full essence. The descriptions of His appearances bear this out.

When God (Christ) appears to Jacob, it is in a human form (Genesis 32:22-30). When God (Christ) appears to Isaiah in the temple, His glory is veiled (Isaiah 6:1-5).

Many of these appearances were awesome and frightening and inspiring, but they were apparently not seeing God (Christ) in His FULL essence of holiness, power and majesty.

When God (Christ) appeared to mankind, it was in the veiled glory of Jesus.

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

Jesus' divinity was veiled by His humanity

God in all these instances had to be Jesus, because remember, NO ONE HAS SEEN THE FATHER.

.Why can't we see God (Jesus) in His unvieled glory? Apparently it has to do with our sinfulness (Habakkuk 1:13). It could also have to do with the frailty of our human form (1 Corinthians 15:50; 2 Corinthians 5:2-3). In other words, our bodies cannot tolerate God's purity and glory unless it is veiled.

Perhaps that is why Adam was able to see God (Jesus). Prior to the fall, sin was not a problem.

The wonderful thing about all of this is in Revelation 22:3-4 which says that in heaven we WILL see God's face! This is also one of the promises of Jesus:

“Blessed are the pure in heart for they will see God!” (Matthew 5:8).

It is evident that with our sins forgiven, and in a state of perfect holiness, and in our resurrected bodies, we will finally have the privilege of seeing God in His full essence and majesty!

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

So you see t8 and others. No one has seen the Father. Jehovah who spoke to men face to face was Jesus Jehovah God.

The truth is a slap in the face with a wet bus ticket for those who promote arianism.

June 3, 2007 at 2:25 pm#54489

942767

Participant

Quote (Cult Buster @ June 04 2007,02:02)

Nick

Quote

So where is anyone identified as Jesus seen in the OT?
Or are you assuming this is so? Is that wise?

Nick. Do yourself a favor and read your Bible.

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Hi CB:

Thanks CB for answering Nick on this and so I won't have to reply because this is scripture, but as you can see, these visions are prophetic.

God Bless

June 3, 2007 at 8:13 pm#54502

NickHassan

Participant

Quote (Cult Buster @ June 04 2007,02:02)

Nick

Quote

So where is anyone identified as Jesus seen in the OT?
Or are you assuming this is so? Is that wise?

Nick. Do yourself a favor and read your Bible.

Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Hi CB,
Yes that is Christ in Dan 7 with GOD in heaven. It is Christ being given a kingdom. So that kingdom is given after his mission was complete so it is prophetic.

The verse about the being seen in the fire is uniquely translated as THE SON OF GOD in the kjv and this does not stand up to manuscript scrutiny.

June 3, 2007 at 8:17 pm#54503

NickHassan

Participant

Hi CB,
You quote,
“Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;”

So Christ our High Priest went through the temple veil of his flesh into the presence of God in the Holy of Holies.
Of course he was not both that priest and that God.

June 3, 2007 at 8:19 pm#54504

NickHassan

Participant

Hi CH,
You say
“Perhaps that is why Adam was able to see God (Jesus).”
and
“When God (Christ) appears to Jacob, it is in a human form (Genesis 32:22-30). When God (Christ) appears to Isaiah in the temple, His glory is veiled (Isaiah 6:1-5).”

Do you have a verse or two to prove these matters or did you just guess it was Christ?

June 3, 2007 at 8:43 pm#54508

942767

Participant

Quote (Cult Buster @ June 04 2007,02:24)