Trinity &#8211; t8&#39;s proof text #1

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 14 2007,01:40)

Yeah, I was starting to miss WJ. I had to go to other boards and debate Trinitarians there. Those folks don't match WJ so it was a hollow feeling.

There is no greater Trinitarian than WJ.

But he who believes and teaches the truth is greater than he.

August 14, 2007 at 11:02 am#64025

Cult Buster

Participant

kejonn

Quote

The Holy Spirit has absolutely no will of its own.

Says who?

1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Kejonn. You must be refering to your “another spirit” The masonic spirit.

2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

August 14, 2007 at 11:18 am#64028

Participant

Hey CultB.

You believe that God created all things through Christ and that Christ is the God that created all things through him.

You also believe that God is 3 persons and yet you call God “Him” instead of “They”.

The Spirit of God is the Spirit of God. It is not a 3rd person. It is what God is for it is written that God is Spirit.

You are a confused man CultB and you should leave the cult that you promote. But I truly don't expect you to have the ears to hear. But I do like surprises, so go ahead and surprise me.

August 14, 2007 at 11:23 am#64030

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%2….m

Participant

Regarding thrones, Christ sits with his Father on the Father's throne and likewise we can sit with Christ on his throne.

Revelation 3:21
To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Our inheritance is in Christ and Christ's inheritance is in God.
God is the head of Christ and Christ is the head of man.

The Trinity doctrine attacks these very truths. The Trinity doctrine also attacks the foundation that Jesus built his Church on. The truth that Jesus is the Messiah and the son of God,

But CultB or the Gates of Hell cannot prevail. So CultB should give it up. He can't fight God and he still has a chance to repent. As for the Gates of Hell, well they have nothing to lose because they have already lost.

August 14, 2007 at 11:33 am#64031

Cult Buster

Participant

t8.

The Holy Spirit is Jehovah God, a Person.

Your spirit is “another spirit” from the Jehovah's Witnesses church.

THE HOLY SPIRIT IS A PERSON: FORTY PERSONAL ATTRIBUTES

1) Helps: Jn 14:16,26, 15:26, 16:7, Rom 8:26, 1 Jn 2:1.
2) Glorifies: Jn 16:13-14.
3) Can be Known: Jn 14:17.
4) Gives Abilities: Acts 2:4, 1 Cor 12:7-11.
5) Referred to as “He”: Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7-8,13.
6) Loves: Rom 15:30.
7) Guides: Jn 16:13.
8) Comforts: Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, Acts 9:31.
9) Teaches: Lk 12:12, Jn 14:26.
10) Reminds: Jn 14:26.
11) Bears Witness: Jn 15:26, Acts 5:32, Rom 8:16.
12) Has Impulses: Jn 16:13.
13) Hears: Jn 16:13.
14) Leads: Mt 4:1, Acts 8:39, Rom 8:14.
15) Pleads: Rom 8:26-27.
16) Longs (Yearns): Jas 4:5.
17) Wills: 1 Cor 12:11.
18) Thinks: Acts 15:25,28.
19) Sends: Acts 13:4.
20) Dispatches: Acts 10:20.
21) Impels: Mk 1:12.
22) Speaks: Jn 16:13-15, Acts 8:29, 10:19, 11:12, 13:2.
23) Forbids: Acts 16:6-7.
24) Appoints: Acts 20:28.
25) Reveals: Lk 2:26, 1 Cor 2:10.
26) Calls to Ministry: Acts 13:2.
27) Can be Grieved: Is 63:10, Eph 4:30.
28) Can be Insulted: Heb 10:29.
29) Can be Lied to: Acts 5:3-4.
30) Can be Blasphemed: Mt 12:31-32.
31) Strives: Gen 6:3.
32) Is Knowledgeable: Is 40:13, Acts 10:19, 1 Cor 2:10-13.
33) Can be Vexed: Is 63:10.
34) Judges: Jn 16:8.
35) Prophesies: Acts 21:11, 28:25, 1 Tim 4:1.
36) Has Fellowship: 2 Cor 13:14.
37) Gives Grace: Heb 10:29.
38) Agrees: 1 Jn 5:7-8.
39) Offers Life: 2 Cor 3:6, Rev 22:17.
40) Is the Creator: Job 33:4.

The Holy Spirit is Jehovah.

Compare
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD(JEHOVAH) I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD (JEHOVAH): for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD (JEHOVAH): for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

With
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Conclusion. The Holy Ghost = Jehovah

August 14, 2007 at 11:58 am#64034

Participant

Quote (Cult Buster @ Aug. 14 2007,06:02)

kejonn

Quote

The Holy Spirit has absolutely no will of its own.

Says who?

1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Kejonn. You must be refering to your “another spirit” The masonic spirit.

As usual, CB wins the “I do not know what context is” award :;): .

1Co 12:6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.
1Co 12:7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
1Co 12:10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
1Co 12:11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

Verse 12:6 says who works all things in all persons: God. So it is by His will we have our certain gifts. Again, the Holy Spirit is an extension of God's power, of His own spirit.

Your “another” Jesus quote is getting old. Paul was not a Trinitarian.

August 14, 2007 at 8:03 pm#64049

Mr. Steve

Participant

WJ;

God bless you. The only problem with the trinity is that it's false. You are yet to answer the questions posted to you that point out the flaws in the trinity reasoning.

How can he be God and the Son of God?

If he is God, how can he be sent by God?

The Father called him his Son, yet you say he is God. How can you possibly overcome truth with error. I so much appreciate your zeal, but save yourself from those which have entangled you. Deliver yourself. We have given you the truth. If there's any apects of God and Christ and the Holy Spirit that do not make sense to you, I personally pledge to help you.

God bless

Mr. Steven

August 14, 2007 at 11:51 pm#64062

Participant

Kejonn

You said…

Quote

And I came back and admitted that it is very likely. But as it stands, there is no reference to it being mentioned again in scripture. But none of that takes away “name will be called”. A name does not denote our substance, it is but a name. If I decide to name my child Napolean that will not make him the historical character, will it? Or even Napolean Dynamite for that matter.

No. But if the Holy Spirit inspires a prophet to give your son a name that is equally used as descriptive title of YWHW himself then you would have something wouldn’t you?

Isa 10:21
The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God (gibbowr, El ).

Jer 32:18
Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, (gibbowr, El) the LORD of hosts, is his name,

Is there any other in scriptures that is given the name “Mighty God” by the Holy Spirit?

LOL

You said…

It is a favorite because it is more realistic. Do you think you will be God someday? Unless you have that thought, than you can never even hope to think you could ever be like him.

This is more realistic…

Gen 1:
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

So were they God? God created them in his likeness.

Jesus said we can be like his Father/God…

Matt 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

“Perfect” Greek ‘teleios…which means…

1) brought to its end, finished
2) wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3) perfect

So again “Straw”! Jesus does not have to be a mere man for us to be like him. He is man, but scriptures say he is God also. We can become like God and not be God.

You said…

Quote

We are born without sin. But we are also born in a fallen world. We are the ones who make our choices. The final decision to sin is ours alone. Yeshua overcame.

Please show me scripture that says we are born without sin.

Pss 51:5
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

1 Cor 15:21,22
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

You say…

Quote

It appears satan knew more about Yeshua than some people today. And I think satan has done a work on many people today by making another being seem to be equal to the God of the OT, YHWH. In some strange way, the Trinity detracts from the focus on the Father and puts it on Yeshua. Yet, if you read about what Yeshua said, he was all about pointing us to his Father.

Mark 9:7
And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

Heb 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Jn 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jn 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he *that loveth me* shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Luke 24:27
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Acts 28:31
Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

1 Jn 1:3
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

There is no fellowship with the Father apart from the Son and there is no fellowship with the Son apart from the Father.

Kejonn, as you pointed out Jesus mentioned the Father “2 times”, in the Acts of the Apostles, but their message was Jesus and teaching and preaching Jesus.

Jesus didn’t even give us the Fathers name.

Col 1:19
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

All things were made by him and for him and without him was not anything made that was made. Jn 1:3, Col 1:16.

The Father calls him God and we should to.

You said…

Quote

If you think that Yeshua was different from us because he couldn't sin, then why would he even need to face temptation? After all, if he couldn't sin, his ability to resist temptation would be a given. Again, we could never hope to be like someone like him. The difference in Yeshua and us is that he overcame perfectly.

If we are men without his life giving Spirit then you are correct, we could never be like him.

The Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. It is the Spirit of God living in us that gives us the victory over sin.

Jesus overcame sin in the flesh because he was the Word/God the Spirit of life that took on the likeness of sinful flesh and not just over came, but condemned sin in the flesh, which only he could do. Now he has given us of his Spirit so we can overcome sin in the flesh and become like him.

Rom 8:
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil and condemn sin in the flesh.

1 Jn 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

You are right, kejonn, we could never hope to be like him without the power of his Holy Spirit in us.

1 Jn 4:4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Who is in us?…
2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

I said…

Quote

By the way God has not brought forth a lessor being as an image of himself for us to follow and serve and bow down to.

You cant serve two masters.

Think about that.

You said…

Quote

Think about what? This is a silly statement. We are to honor Father and Son. It has nothing to do with who is lesser or greater. It is God's will. You're “two masters” is a poor example because the “two masters” the Bible speaks of are opposing ideals. Let me show you so you won't use this poor example in relation to serving God and Yeshua again.
Mat 6:24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.

I wouldn't believe you would use the Bible out of context that badly. The love of money is the root of all evil! But to honor the Son is to honor the Father who sent him. It has no bearing on Yeshua's “divinity”.

Silly? LOL. That sounds like a word my 6 year old grandchild would use! Your condescension wont work with me.

Seriously, though.

Mat 6:24
“No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.

You do know what an “Analogy” is don’t you?

Now I could say the above like that or I could show some grace and say it like this.

I believe Jesus is using an “analogy” here”!

Would you prefer that we ingage in patronizing or showing some respect for each other and have some serious dialogue?

Jesus makes the comparison between men serving masters and men serving God or mammon.

Notice the period after the word “other”. The Translators put that there to make sense of the sentence.

So then Ill say it like this…

No man can serve 2 Gods. God has not brought forth a lessor divine being or a god as an image of himself for us to follow and serve and bow down to.

Think about that.

You said…

Quote

And potentially more bias? The Trinity is pretty much become mainstream and has been since the translators of the KJV. The Greek and Hebrew words can mean many things, but the translators decided what they did. Can we be certain they were not biased? The only ones who were not biased were the ones who first wrote the scriptures.

Actually the trinity goes all the way back to the Apostles and early Fathers like Ignatius.

2 Tim 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Either we let the scriptures correct us or we correct the scriptures.

I choose the former.

You said…

Quote

But that I had to accept the reality that where man is involved, mistakes are made. The Apostles did not write the NT in Microsoft Word and make DVD backups for preservation.

Explain these two verses to me if you would please:
Joh 5:31 “If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true.

Joh 8:14 Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I testify about Myself, My testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from or where I am going.
So, which is it? 5:31 says “not true”, 8:14 says “true”. And the word “alone” in v5:31 is not in the original Greek.

Kejonn, I know you want to take this debate in this direction and I understand why.
If we are gonna debate over the scriptures being true or not, then this conversation is useless, because everytime I give a scripture that dosnt agree with you then your response can be it was tampered with. So I am wasting my time and I am surely not on the same plane as you, for the rules can change with you but I choose to hold to the scriptures as being true.

To answer your question the “alone” was put there by the translators so there wouldn’t be a contradiction. And the truth is Jesus would not say or do anything apart from the Father neither will the Father do ar say anything without Yeshua. The Holy Spirit is subservient to the Father and the Son.

I just realized kejonn that we are not playing by the same rules.

So I think it is best I not go further with you.

You win. I concede. There is no chance of me being able to reach you or you reach me if you believe the scriptures are corrupt and I believe that they are true.

Its been fun. I pray that you come to a greater knowledge of Father and the Lord Jesus.

Blessing to you.

Keith

August 15, 2007 at 3:02 am#64069

Participant

WJ,

I had worked several minutes on a response to you but accidently closed the tab I was working in. I had come to the statement about no longer debating me so instead of doing it over, I will address some points. None will have anything to do with the verses you listed.

First, I understand why you feel the way you do. I used to be the same way in that I believed that the Bible was 100% without error. But I found that this was not true long ago, well before I even thought of questioning the Trinity. Now, instead of viewing the Bible as we have it now as some book that was handed down directly from God, I realize that it still has the essential truthes of God that we need to know. Many more things will be taught to us by God through His Holy Spirit.

I actually find it rather amazing that we do not have more errors than we do. The Dead Sea Scrolls proved that what we have is amazing accurate, but certainly not perfect. It has nothing to do with the original text or inspiration of God in the men who wrote the various books, but everything about errors made in copying, the occasional footnote of a scribe that somehow becomes inserted into scripture, and problems with translation. If you feel that you can read it with an open mind, then I suggest you check out Persistent Problems Confronting Bible Translators by Bruce Metzger.

You see WJ, my faith is bigger than all of this. I can accept that man is not perfect and that the various errors we have in our modern Bibles are the result of fallible man. But the power of faith allows us to overcome these things.

But we also have to remember that what we typically view is translations. Translations by men and women who may be biased, and who may be working from the work of others before them rather than starting anew with good manuscripts. Why are some words capitalized in some places, but not in others? The context is not there in some of those cases. Why did “it” become “he” as time progressed when the Greek word could be either? Things like this do not bring question to the original manuscripts but the motives of those translating them.

Look at the NWT. Do you think it is a fair and unbiased translation? How about the one you pointed to at 2001translation.com? So its not a problem with the original languages as much as it is the ability of those translating Greek and Hebrew that was written 1700-2000+ years ago.

And as to you're other statement that I was being condescending, I do not think so at all. I said your comparison between the Father and Son versus God and mammon was silly, and it is. The two are not even close so this analogy is way off base. I did not call you a name or say you were silly, but that the comparison was silly. I think you may be offended too easily.

Or, it may be that you have tired of our debate and are looking for a graceful way to bow out by making me look “bad”. That's fine. You had just started listing the same old verses time and again anyways and it was getting boring addressing them again.

Thanks for the time, WJ. It has been interesting. You have provided quite a challenge and I hope and pray that if nothing else has come from our exchange that you put the Father in the proper perspective. I encourage you to read the Gospels again and note how Yahshua was all about the Father's business. This will help you see that Yahshua is to be honored, but that the Father does not need to be forgotten on the way.

Thanks, and best of wishes for the future. I pray that you serve God with your whole being.

August 15, 2007 at 4:15 am#64073

GeneBalthrop

Participant

Kejonn….>well stated, maybe some of the things you brought out will cause WJ to reconcider his position some day, I hope so……….gene

August 15, 2007 at 6:45 am#64081

Not3in1

Participant

KJ and WJ – wow brother's you gave this debate a good ride! It has been interesting following your posts. Thanks to both of you.

August 15, 2007 at 6:54 am#64082

Participant

kejonn

Thanks for your response.

First of all I assure you I am not trying to make you look bad. He He. You are a hero on this sight and even if I could make you look bad it wouldn’t matter here.

Secondly, I think you misunderstand me about the scriptures. Its not that I blindly accept every word that I read. I test the words with the many translations on biblegateway and blueletter.com as well as check Greek and Hebrew text and Lexicons and what ever source I can find. The difference I suppose between us is I don’t have a mission to disprove the scriptures that in my opinion are unambiguous. What I mean by that is if the majority has translated the scripture or scriptures the same and there is no credible reason for not accepting it, then I accept it for what it says. Not that the majority is always right, but there has to be credible evidence to sway me away from the majority of the translations. There is safety in numbers. And I agree that my faith also is bigger than the book, however I believe that the scriptures are there to make us wise and as a plumb line to guide us in our faith, and with the help and guidance of the Spirit of truth we can build a sure foundation. The Word is a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path.

While you may not agree, it seems to me that these things were settled 100s of years ago.
Certain scriptures were translated unanimously the way they were by all the translators in the many translations (with a few stragglers here and there that most of the time have no credibility), for a specific reason. And I believe the reasons were not bias, for that would be a stretch to say that all the 100s of translators were biased on a scripture that is translated the same over a period of hundreds of years. I trust that all the works by the 100s of scholars, many having access to the very best of information available to them especially the modern translations today have done the work to bring us the very best and purist form of the scriptures. Now, while it may seem to you that the scriptures may have a Trinitarian bias, I don’t thinks so. Besides admitting that the scriptures have a Trinitarian bias is an admission that maybe it can be found in scriptures. Of course I believe if there seems to be a bias towards the trinity, then it is because the trinity is true, and the best way to reconcile all of scriptures without contradictions is the Trinitarian view. So the translation bias theory is not something that can be proven, even the modern translations still leave certain Trinitarian verses unambiguous.

So again, if one is to have a healthy dialogue about scriptures, then it does no good if the parties involved are attacking the scriptures as being tampered with when it doesn’t agree with them. The debate is useless then. If a text as you have mentioned is ambiguous then it should be pointed out and then move on. But if there is no proof or ambiguity to be found, then it shouldn’t be questioned. It should be accepted as it is. For instance, the famous Jn 1:1 scripture. If the “Word was God” is translated this way by the overwhelming majority of the translators, and not translated as “Word was a god” or “Word is divine”, then I believe there are good reasons for this. Since I am not a Greek or Hebrew scholar then I will not try to reinvent the wheel. If that makes the Bible a Trinitarian Bible, Oh well! Then, not trying to be rude, go join the JWs and use theirs or write your own.

For me if I don’t like a passage, not that I have any I don’t like, I will check it out and compare it with other scriptures and I will either believe it or not, but I will not attack it and accuse the translators of bias. Believe me when you have brought up certain scriptures and translated them a certain way I didn’t like, I have been tempted to say, “Well how do we know the translators were not biased”.

I don’t always like some of the translations either. It’s not always to my favor. For instance Rev 1:11. Some of the older translations making use of the received text or Byzantine text renders Rev 1:11 with Jesus being the Alpha and Omega. But I don’t whine that the text has been tampered with, because it is ambiguous. So I just don’t quote the verse.

I believe the majority of the translators had good intentions and were more than qualified. And the differences are few as you pointed out. I read your sight and am not a big fan of the translations that he mentions. However, I noted that in the end he said this…

“But in the last analysis, whichever version one prefers, the important thing is to read it and to respond to its message. As Johannes Albrecht Bengel put it succinctly in the preface to his 1734 edition of the Greek New Testament, “Te totum applica ad textum: rem totam applica ad te” (“Apply yourself wholly to the text: apply the whole matter to yourself”).

Persistent Problems Confronting Bible Translators
Bruce M. Metzger
Bibliotheca Sacra 150: 599 (1993): 273-284.
[Reproduced by permission]
http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/article_trans_metzger4.html

There is one thing for sure kejonn. There will it seems until the Lord returns, be divisions in the body. However, it behooves us as believers in “The Son of God”, Yeshua to endeavor to keep unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

I appreciate your tenacity and the fact that you pushed me even closer to my God.

Blessings

August 15, 2007 at 6:55 am#64083

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 15 2007,18:45)

KJ and WJ – wow brother's you gave this debate a good ride! It has been interesting following your posts. Thanks to both of you.

not3

Thanks!

August 15, 2007 at 7:14 am#64084

Participant

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 15 2007,16:15)

Kejonn….>well stated, maybe some of the things you brought out will cause WJ to reconcider his position some day, I hope so……….gene

To late for me my friend. I have not forgotten the one who came into my life in the spring of 1974.

Without any help or coercion of man the Holy Spirit convicted me of my sin and intoduced me to Jesus. I cried out and asked Jesus to come into my life and forgive me, and he has been my Lord and God ever since. It was a drastic change for me! Then Jesus introduced me to my Father, and since that day my love for Jesus and the Father has deepened, and the Holy Spirit has been my guide.

The Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit lives in me as one God.

August 15, 2007 at 7:15 am#64085

Not3in1

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2007,18:54)

and the best way to reconcile all of scriptures without contradictions is the Trinitarian view.

WJ,
Can you elaborate on this for me? Thanks.

P.S…….I don't think anyone is a “hero” on this site!

August 15, 2007 at 7:20 am#64086

Not3in1

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2007,19:14)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 15 2007,16:15)

Kejonn….>well stated, maybe some of the things you brought out will cause WJ to reconcider his position some day, I hope so……….gene

To late for me my friend. I have not forgotten the one who came into my life in the spring of 1974.

The Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit lives in me as one God.

You say, “Without any help….from man….” does this mean that noone lead you to Christ? Did someone witness to you? How did you come to know Jesus? I'm assuming someone told you the gospel?

Did you then join a church?

How did you come to know that Jesus/Holy Spirit/Father made one God? Did you just figure this out by reading the Bible yourself? I'm sincerely curious about these questions……

August 15, 2007 at 9:43 am#64087

Participant

Quote (Cult Buster @ Aug. 14 2007,23:33)

The Holy Spirit is Jehovah God, a Person.

As usual you are stumped and then you just change the subject.

What has this got to do with the conversation.

I also believe that the Holy Spirit is God.

God is a Spirit is he not?

CultB, you are funny.

August 15, 2007 at 11:18 am#64091

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 15 2007,01:54)

kejonn

Thanks for your response.

First of all I assure you I am not trying to make you look bad. He He. You are a hero on this sight and even if I could make you look bad it wouldn’t matter here.

I don't want to be a hero! There should only be one hero, and he gave his life for us. That is my own hero. In any case, it just seemed that way because even looking back, I didn't see anything out of line in my statements. But that doesn't mean there wasn't. In any case, whatever may have offended I ask for forgiveness in and I hope that you will pray for me in correction of such things.

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I apologize for this too. It may have seemed to have been an attack on scripture, but I assure you it is not. If anything my attack is on any who have changed the words of the Bible since they were written. The RCC has done some pretty detestable things in its history, and from what I understand, they made sure that the scriptures were exclusively theirs for years. It appears that they did their best to destroy any other works that did not agree with theirs either but that cannot be definitively proven.

One thing that bothers me is that most of the early writers beyond the NT were by students of John, or even students of students of John. Why did more of Paul's students not have any writings? Or Peter's? Or James'? Mark and Luke may have been friends or students of Paul, but we hear of no others. I wonder if Timothy wrote anything?

Of the early church father's, here's how it broke down

Clement – with Paul at Philippi, and possibly with St. Luke.

Mathetes – uncertain but seems to have a Pauline flair

Polycarp – student of St. John but oddly made no mention of Yahshua being the Word

Ignatius – student of St. John

Barnabas – unknown, but could be Barnabas of Acts, but likely anonymous

Papias – friend of Polycarp, may have known St. John. Like Polycarp, he does not relate Yahshua as the Word.

Justin Martyr – no known association, but appears to have been a student of Socrates and Plato before his conversion (that explains much!)

Irenaeus – student of Polycarp. Irenaeus toyed with the idea of theosis a bit; that is, that those who are adopted will become part of the Godhead

Seems Peter or James did not have any students who wrote or that their writings did not survive for some reason. Likely James was killed early on, but who can say about Peter?

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While you may not agree, it seems to me that these things were settled 100s of years ago.

I agree mostly. The KJV did not have the best manuscripts according to most scholars. But the KJV was the best on the block for a long time.

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Certain scriptures were translated unanimously the way they were by all the translators in the many translations (with a few stragglers here and there that most of the time have no credibility), for a specific reason. And I believe the reasons were not bias, for that would be a stretch to say that all the 100s of translators were biased on a scripture that is translated the same over a period of hundreds of years. I trust that all the works by the 100s of scholars, many having access to the very best of information available to them especially the modern translations today have done the work to bring us the very best and purist form of the scriptures. Now, while it may seem to you that the scriptures may have a Trinitarian bias, I don’t thinks so. Besides admitting that the scriptures have a Trinitarian bias is an admission that maybe it can be found in scriptures. Of course I believe if there seems to be a bias towards the trinity, then it is because the trinity is true, and the best way to reconcile all of scriptures without contradictions is the Trinitarian view. So the translation bias theory is not something that can be proven, even the modern translations still leave certain Trinitarian verses unambiguous.

Well, you know you and I disagree with this. But that is neither here nor there. To me, the Trinitarian view clouds because a true application where you see “God” without “Father” and Yahshua together, it just doesn't work well. I say this because your view is that God is all three, and not just the Father. Even verses like John 3:16 take on an odd meaning with a Trinitarian view because we only have “For God so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son”. Thus, if God is all three, how can Yahshua be his own Son? It is stuff like this that makes the Trinity less likley to reconcile the scriptures.

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That is a sad statement and one I have seen you use before. It seems that you and CB are bigoted or even have hatred for JWs. That is not a Christian attitude IMO.

But as far as John 1:1 goes, I have presented much evidence that refutes what modern scholars may have agreed on. One is Philo of Alexandria, who wrote in Koine and specifically addressed th
e structure of a verse he knew nothing about! And then there is the Coptic version of John which would also be translated as “Word was a god” because it does have the structure that leaves little room for doubt.

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Sadly, whether you want to believe so or not, all humans have bias. We just hope they balance each other out. And I do not care for your constant accusation of “attacking” the scripture because I question them. Questioning is not attacking, and certainly not when I can show variants that are not my own.

The reason I do this is because I feel that developing a theology based on questionable verses is a dangerous thing.

And in the end, I do what I do because I despise one popular belief that many Trinitarians share: that one must believe in it for salvation. That is 100% unscriptural and is based fully on man-made doctrine. I want to be able to serve my God without others saying I am lost because I do not believe Yahshua is part of a 3-in-1 God. If this is the case, according to what Yahshua himself taught, he left behind many lost people.

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As it should be. You have plenty of others to work with.

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Persistent Problems Confronting Bible Translators
Bruce M. Metzger
Bibliotheca Sacra 150: 599 (1993): 273-284.
[Reproduced by permission]
http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/article_trans_metzger4.html

Bruce said the right thing. But remember, no version has Trinity in it. It is read into the scriptures, not read from them.

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And that is my true intention. It may not seem so, but I would like to see a time when people stop looking at non-trinitarians as cultists and heretics. That is my goal. I cannot disprove the Trinity to a strong believer in it, but hopefully I can show them that to not believe in it is scriptural and has a strong basis. The majority of non-trinitarians do not use anything but scripture to develop their beliefs, and do not rely on doctrines that came out years later. They use the Bible. And that is what to me makes the case so strong.

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I appreciate your tenacity and the fact that you pushed me even closer to my God.

Blessings

Haha, it seemed it worked in a similar fashion for both of us! When I started on this site, I had some doubts but now I'm thoroughly convinced that the Trinity is erroneous. But in the meantime, I have now redeveloped the true order of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This enables me to never forget the Father who sent His only begotten Son.

August 15, 2007 at 11:29 am#64092

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 15 2007,01:45)

KJ and WJ – wow brother's you gave this debate a good ride! It has been interesting following your posts. Thanks to both of you.

Thanks! It has been an great time too. I'll admit that we both said some things we shouldn't have but we both seemed to have recognized that and made amends. This can happen when someone has a strong passion about something. But fortunately for us, the Spirit shows us our error and helps us to seek and give forgiveness.

August 15, 2007 at 11:34 am#64094