- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 06 2011,11:57) Hey t8! Could you help with this? I put the words of WJ's quote into the search, and it did bring up that thread. But is there a way to narrow it down to a page? mike
Hi Mike,He couldn't said it too long ago,
start on the last page and work backwards.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgOK, you started this thread on Feb 23d. Do you remember roughly how many days it was before He said that, and you started this new thread. Was it right away? Or was it a matter of weeks? Any ideas?
I'm not opposed to wading through many pages of material, but if there is way to narrow it down. (Even a guess, like between pages 125 and 170 would be helpful.)
Because WJ never denied saying it, I of course know he said it. I just would like to see it myself, and in context.
Sorry David,
I just painstakenly did a word search from page 30 until the end, and nothing popped up to match those words.
I don't know what to tell you. You know how sometimes the same discussion bleeds over to other threads? Maybe that's what happened. But I found it the first time when I started this thread, and I could have sworn it is in the thread I linked for you.
Sorry. I'm old with gray hairs and just don't remember things like I used to.
mike
Stupid me! I pasted a copy of Keith's words with MY quotations from when I quoted him. And that's what I was searching for, and that's why I didn't find it. Because he didn't originally post it with quotations.
Rookie mistake.
Ed only showed me this F3 search thing yesterday!Anyway, it is on page 118, 6th post from the top in the thread I gave you the link to.
mike
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=31;t=3694;st=1790;r=1;&#entry287667
This is where that post can be found. Or, the original place, page 118, post 6, of the same thread.
Everyone not just I are saying that just because Jesus is called God does not mean he is God.
We have been telling you all along it is all about context
Now, corrected for Grammar:
“Everyone not just [myself, is] saying that just because Jesus is called God does not mean he is God. . . . It is all about context.”–WJ
Quote (david @ Mar. 07 2011,01:20) Everyone not just I are saying that just because Jesus is called God does not mean he is God. We have been telling you all along it is all about context
Now, corrected for Grammar:
“Everyone not just [myself, is] saying that just because Jesus is called God does not mean he is God. . . . It is all about context.”–WJ
DavidJohn 1:1-3 in context says that Jesus is co-creator with the Father and that “Nothing came into being without him” (Jesus).
Contextually that means that the Word that was with God is also God!
Jesus now has all authority and power and sits in the throne of God ruling as God and is not yet subject to the Father yet he upholds all things byt the word of his power and by him Jesus all things consist.
So contextully I would say he is God! Not to mention scriptures in which the Apostles and ForeFathers that called Jesus “Their” God.
WJ
Quote (david @ Mar. 06 2011,01:23) OK, you started this thread on Feb 23d. Do you remember roughly how many days it was before He said that, and you started this new thread. Was it right away? Or was it a matter of weeks? Any ideas? I'm not opposed to wading through many pages of material, but if there is way to narrow it down. (Even a guess, like between pages 125 and 170 would be helpful.)
Because WJ never denied saying it, I of course know he said it. I just would like to see it myself, and in context.
DavidThanks for noticing that my words were taken out of context because Mike purposely left off this part…
“We have been telling you all along it is all about context”.
Mike has been misrepresenting me by claiming I am saying that Jesus is never referred to as “The True God” when in fact I was saying because of the context he is God.
WJ
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 05 2011,16:54) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 27 2011,04:59) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 23 2011,18:23) Yes Keith, I said that. And seeing how YHVH is called “god” many times in scripture, I'd say it goes without saying, right? Deborah being called “god” doesn't mean she is NOT God, but it doesn't mean she IS, right? Same with Moses, certain angels, and the kings referred to in Psalm 45:6 and 138:1, right?
But if Deborah or Moses sits in the Throne of God ruling as Sovereign King of Kings and Lord of Lords over the Universe then I would say that they are God.If the Prophets and Apostles like Isaiah, John, Paul, Peter, Thomas and the hundreds of Forefathers some from the 1st century claim he is their God then that is confirmation that he is God.
“Mike, is someone less than God in charge of the Universe right down to the very elements including the atoms that holds all things together?“
“Has God turned over infinite authority, power and the Universe to a finite being?“
WJ
Yet you have a double standard WJ.
You do not say that those who sit on Christ's throne are Christ.You see, Christ sits with the Father on his throne and we can sit with Christ on his.
t8And I didn't say that Jesus is the Father did I? Notice how you change it up using a “name” that identifies Jesus rather than using a title like “human” or “man” that identifies his nature as being like us, human.
That was a sleight of hand as usual with your words.
If you were honest you would have said…
“You do not say that those who sit on Christ's throne are [human].”
Jesus is a man also according to the flesh. That is our tie to him that we like him are human.
Jesus sits in the throne of God ruling as God and that of course is tied to the Father according to his (Jesus) Spirit which is God.
How is it t8 that you cannot comprehend simple truths like the nature of a being like God who is a finite being and how Jesus is exactly as the Father in nature?
You didn't address my points at all, for instance there are no scriptures that say we will ever have all authority and power, or sit in the Fathers Throne are there?
WJ
Mike said:
Quote You have admitted that the word IS properly translated as SERVANT.
Mike,Do you enjoy being dishonest? Do you ever have a pang of conscience when you misrepresent? I said also in our second debate that the Greek “pais” means “child-servant.” I even duplicated it recently somewhere. I duplicate my FULL commentary again:
Quote The child was a servant as I have said. But He was the heir unlike the servant. And he differed nothing from a servant UNTIL the appointed time of the father (Gal. 4) The whole idea is that Jesus was the CHILD-SERVANT of God. But now He is the fully investitured Son. Back to Hebrews 3. Jesus is “Son” over His house while Moses was just a servant. Therefore, the Son is not a servant. Mike assumes that the translators mean the same thing he means by terms. “pais” = child servant (family member, becomes a fully investitured son).
“doulos” = servant (non family member and no son)
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….8;st=30Jesus was exalted from child-servant to fully investitured Son. A Son is NOT a servant in His own house.
Quote 3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
Jesus was child-HEIR-servant become Son. So make sure you remember it ALL Mike or you become guilty of bearing false witness which is against the God you claim you worship.Jack
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 07 2011,11:56) David Thanks for noticing that my words were taken out of context because Mike purposely left off this part…
Keith,Did those words change the meaning of what you said at all? Of course EVERYTHING you read about ANYTHING in scripture has to have CONTEXT taken into consideration. That is a given.
I was interested in getting ALL THE NAMES of those involved (our resident trinitarians), and the bottom line that just because Jesus is called by the title of “elohim” or “theos” is not ANY KIND OF PROOF that he is God Almighty.
I did that successfully. It took me two years to do it, but I did it and I'm proud of that achievement.
Thank you Keith!
mike
Quote (Kangaroo Jack Jr. @ Mar. 07 2011,12:48) Mike said: Quote You have admitted that the word IS properly translated as SERVANT.
Mike,Do you enjoy being dishonest? Do you ever have a pang of conscience when you misrepresent?
Jack,These were your exact words:
“The book of Acts says that God exalted His servant Jesus. It does NOT say that Jesus remained servant after He was exalted.”
This came after months of you claiming “pais” did NOT mean “servant” in referrence to Christ, even though all the newer trinitarian Bibles render it this way 4 times in the Book of Acts. You insisted over and over that it referred to the “child” Jesus, but not to the “servant” Jesus.
But your own words above show that you have finally come to your senses and agree with virtually every translation that “pais” DOES mean “servant” in referrence to Christ.
So how exactly was I being “dishonest” or “misrepresenting” anything? The above HONESTLY REPRESENTS your words in the most recent discussion we've had about God's Holy Servant Jesus. Am I lying about that?
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 07 2011,11:50)
John 1:1-3 in context says that Jesus is co-creator with the Father
It surely does NOT say that.
Show me the word “co-creator”.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 07 2011,11:50)
Jesus now has all authority and power
Jesus has exactly the amount of power and authority that his own God has given him.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 07 2011,11:50)
sits in the throne of God ruling as God
No, he rules as God's Prince, like many scriptures say. His God HAS however, GRANTED HIM to sit in His throne for a while. After all is accomplished that Jesus' God has willed to be accomplished, Jesus will reign from the throne of the one God calls “my servant David”.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 07 2011,11:50)
Not to mention scriptures in which the Apostles and ForeFathers that called Jesus “Their” God.
See? Here we go already. First, only ONE Apostle said “my god” to Jesus. Second, in Biblical times, even Judge Judy would have been called “God Judy”. And David referred to earthly kings as “gods”. So Thomas calling Jesus “my leader” or “my judge” or “my ruler” or “my king” STILL does not prove Jesus to be God Almighty. And that reasoning and usage of the word “theos” goes for the early church fathers as well………..even if we did decide to hold dear the words of these average men.Keith, why do you make such a big deal of 20:28, but blow off Rev 3:12, where Jesus calls Jehovah “my God” four different times?
Keith, have you forgotten so soon? Here, let me remind you:
“just because Jesus is called God does not mean he is God.”
That goes for “god”, “my god”, “our god”, and “your god”. It even, depending on CONTEXT could go for “the god”, as is used of Satan.
mike
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 08 2011,04:50) Quote (david @ Mar. 07 2011,01:20) Everyone not just I are saying that just because Jesus is called God does not mean he is God. We have been telling you all along it is all about context
Now, corrected for Grammar:
“Everyone not just [myself, is] saying that just because Jesus is called God does not mean he is God. . . . It is all about context.”–WJ
DavidJohn 1:1-3 in context says that Jesus is co-creator with the Father and that “Nothing came into being without him” (Jesus).
Contextually that means that the Word that was with God is also God!
Jesus now has all authority and power and sits in the throne of God ruling as God and is not yet subject to the Father yet he upholds all things byt the word of his power and by him Jesus all things consist.
So contextully I would say he is God! Not to mention scriptures in which the Apostles and ForeFathers that called Jesus “Their” God.
WJ
I realize that you believe that. I would argue that contextually, you are very very wrong.But, I do not care about that now. I am more focused on what you said and how that relates to what you say in the future.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 08 2011,04:56) Quote (david @ Mar. 06 2011,01:23) OK, you started this thread on Feb 23d. Do you remember roughly how many days it was before He said that, and you started this new thread. Was it right away? Or was it a matter of weeks? Any ideas? I'm not opposed to wading through many pages of material, but if there is way to narrow it down. (Even a guess, like between pages 125 and 170 would be helpful.)
Because WJ never denied saying it, I of course know he said it. I just would like to see it myself, and in context.
DavidThanks for noticing that my words were taken out of context because Mike purposely left off this part…
“We have been telling you all along it is all about context”.
Mike has been misrepresenting me by claiming I am saying that Jesus is never referred to as “The True God” when in fact I was saying because of the context he is God.
WJ
I think you have probably actually always said this, but it is just interesting to hear it actually said clearly. You of course would argue that every place where Jesus is called god has context that means he is “The” god of the Bible. So, really, nothing has changed. Yet, it will be so easy for people to quote your words, which on the surface appear to greatly weaken your arguments. I myself may do this if you ever appear to cross the line and use that argument. But then, you would probably just quote these words back to me. Oh well. Let the quoting begin.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 08 2011,10:35) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 07 2011,11:56) David Thanks for noticing that my words were taken out of context because Mike purposely left off this part…
Keith,Did those words change the meaning of what you said at all? Of course EVERYTHING you read about ANYTHING in scripture has to have CONTEXT taken into consideration. That is a given.
I was interested in getting ALL THE NAMES of those involved (our resident trinitarians), and the bottom line that just because Jesus is called by the title of “elohim” or “theos” is not ANY KIND OF PROOF that he is God Almighty.
I did that successfully. It took me two years to do it, but I did it and I'm proud of that achievement.
Thank you Keith!
mike
It should be noted that I of course never said those words were taken out of context. WJ misrepresented me on that.Those words mean what they appear to say…to me at least.
What I actually said of course was I wanted to check the context, because, when dealing with such extraordinarily rare occurances, such as WJ saying anything that would at first glance appear to weaken his case, I have to see it with my own eyes.
Mike. There are thousands of threads speaking about John 1:1. This is the only thread that discusses WJ saying:
Everyone[,] not just [myself, is] saying that just because Jesus is called God does not mean he is God.
They will try to bury those words. If I were you, I would create a new thread called: “Just because Jesus is called God does not mean he is God.”
I would then base the entire discussion on those words. The first post should be WJ's post, with a little more context. Then, perhaps that nice enlarged version of the words in question, the underlined words above.
I believe that the idea (the underlined words) do deserve a thread, and the fact that they are WJ's words directly, makes it that much more interesting.
David,
basically what WJ said is basically what Francis said in his debate with Mike.The Interpretation of Elohim or Theos always depends on Context.
Which we have always have argued.SF, I said as much a couple posts back:
“I think you [WJ] have probably actually always said this, but it is just interesting to hear it actually said clearly. You of course would argue that every place where Jesus is called god has context that means he is “The” god of the Bible. So, really, nothing has changed.”
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
