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Quote (Mr. Steve @ Aug. 03 2007,16:00) CB and Worshipping Jesus; God is a general title. The Father is a specific title of God in the New Testament. When Thomas called Christ his God he wasn't speaking a lie. But don't read more into this scripture than is written. Did Thomas say you are my God and my Father? Did Thomas say you are equal to the Father? Is the Father even mentioned in the scripture? So if you're looking for scriptural support that Christ is God just like the Father is God, it's not found in Thomas' statement, My Lord and my God. By the way CB, nice cut and paste job on the scriptures. Can you explain them? Or, guess how many of them are on point with the call of the question and the issues presented, if any? Have you ever heard of an argument or an analysis or an application to the facts and issues presented? Never mind.
Mr Steve.What explanation or analysis do you need on the following? Can't you just acceprt the Word of God as it is written? If it doesn't fit in with your theology THEN CHANGE YOUR “THEOLOGY'
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
is this a closed debate or can any one enter in, my question is how can you use hebrews as a proof text when it goes agains the word of god, for it says abram tithed to mel,the record in genisis says the oposit that mel tithed to abram,bread and wine.abram had nothing to tithe to mel,for he had not gone home yet,and he said very clearly he would take nothing so where did this tithe come from? did god drop it out from heaven?,also it says mel is god in hebrews,by saying he had no begining or ending,who is your god? this sounds like satan to me makeing another god,hmmm,well if mel was god than why would he need abram to save him,wouldent he just call fire down from heaven to devour his enemies,hmmm,your god sure sounds week to me needing abram to save him,but you can go on and follow the blind into the pit where satan is leading all mankind,if thats what you desire ?may god lead you into all truth.
Michaels,
I think you need to read the Genesis passage again. Abram did indeed tithe to Melchizedek. For one thing, Melchizedek was high priest. Check it out.
Gen 14:16 He brought back all the goods, and also brought back his relative Lot with his possessions, and also the women, and the people.
Gen 14:17 Then after his return from the defeat of Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with him, the king of Sodom went out to meet him at the valley of Shaveh (that is, the King's Valley).Gen 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; now he was a priest of God Most High.
Gen 14:19 He blessed him and said, “Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth;
Gen 14:20 And blessed be God Most High, Who has delivered your enemies into your hand.” He gave him a tenth of all.
Gen 14:21 The king of Sodom said to Abram, “Give the people to me and take the goods for yourself.“Now you may take the “He” in 14:20 to be Melchizedek, but who was it that brought back the goods, women, and people that were the spoils of war? Abram. So after the blessing, Abram tithed to the high priest. Why would the high priest tithe to Abram?
In fact, if you pay attention to 14:21, you see this. Melchizedek is telling Abram, who has just tithed, to take the goods and he will take the people. The rest of ch. 14 records that Abram refused the goods that are allotted to Melchizedek.
Some Bible versions actually use “Abram” in 14:20.
NLT And blessed be God Most High, who has helped you conquer your enemies.” Then Abram gave Melchizedek a tenth of all the goods he had recovered.
NIV And blessed be God Most High, who delivered your enemies into your hand.” Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything.
ESV “and blessed be God Most High, who has delivered your enemies into your hand!” And Abram gave him a tenth of everything.
RSV and blessed be God Most High, who has delivered your enemies into your hand!” And Abram gave him a tenth of everything.so are you saying that mel is your god,whom needed abram to save him,your god still sound very weak to me,abram wouldent even take a shoe latchet ,for he worshiped my god,and why do you bring in all these diferent versions of lies made by the,publishers,seek god and get back to his word,read the hebrew/or allmost as acurate the original kjv.
please forgive me for comeing off a little bit harsh,dident mean to ofend,may the LORD lead you into all truth,me love you.and he does to.
Michaels,
I only used other versions to clarify for you. But I showed you the context. I could do the same with the KJV. Since Melchizedek was high priest, Abram was bringing the tithe of the spoils to him. Why would the high priest give tithe to Abram?
Neh 10:38 The priest, the son of Aaron, shall be with the Levites when the Levites receive tithes, and the Levites shall bring up the tenth of the tithes to the house of our God, to the chambers of the storehouse.
The Levites were the priests. Abram was not a priest. Tithes were to be collected by priests.
Please study these verses again. You need to clarify the context because the language does make it unclear until you study the whole passage.
CB;
Thanks for the hot tip. Perhaps you should apply it to yourself, too. For instance, where in the Thomas quote do you read him calling Jesus the Father or Jehovah? So you don't have to read it again I'll give you the answer. He didn't. So why then do you make the grand conclusion that Christ is Jehovah or the Highest? Do you realize you're calling Christ a liar? Do you now distinquish a difference between the Highest, the heavenly Father, and Jehovah to preserve your understanding? In doing so, you're making God a liar because its been proven to you that is impossible.
Quote (Mr. Steve @ Aug. 08 2007,09:36) CB; Thanks for the hot tip. Perhaps you should apply it to yourself, too. For instance, where in the Thomas quote do you read him calling Jesus the Father or Jehovah? So you don't have to read it again I'll give you the answer. He didn't. So why then do you make the grand conclusion that Christ is Jehovah or the Highest? Do you realize you're calling Christ a liar? Do you now distinquish a difference between the Highest, the heavenly Father, and Jehovah to preserve your understanding? In doing so, you're making God a liar because its been proven to you that is impossible.
Mr Steve.You may twist and wriggle all you want playing word games, but Thomas has got you stumped with this one.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Do yourself a favor and CHANGE YOUR THEOLOGY! It comes from the Jehovah's Witnesses.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%2….m
Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Rom 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
CB;
As usual, the questions that reveal truth, you don't answer. Again, Where does Thomas call Christ God the Father? And you accuse me of not accepting what the scriptures say. This time you actually made me laugh. Don't you ever let anyone tell you that you don't serve a purpose.
Mr. Steve
Mr Steve. That is a silly way of avoiding the truth.
Why does Thomas have to call Christ “God the Father” ?
You may try to create a diversion, but you are still faced with the confronting truth.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
2Pe 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction).
Mr Steve. Will you continue to pervert the truth to your own destruction?
CB;
You claim that Christ is Jehovah. Jehovah is the Father. See Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses. Jehovah told Moses he was the same God that appeared to Abraham, the most high God. You believe that Christ is Jehovah. Christ said his Father was the God of Abraham. Thus, making the Father also the Almighty and Jehovah. You are then disagreeing with the scriptures because Christ said he was the Son of God. How can Christ be Jehovah and the Son of God, too, and claim to be sent by the Father? This is the entanglement you have created for yourself in your cultbusting theology. I don't know how you or anyone else could believe such contradictions. Fare the well.
Steven
CB;
The scriptures in Revelation which state that Christ is the beginning and the end, the first and last, denote the fullness of the Godhead bodily dwelling in Christ. He is the express image of the Father in full glory in Revelation. By the way, if you believe that Christ is Jehovah, why are you against worshipping Christ?
Steven
MR Steve.
There you go misrepresenting me again just as you misrepresent scripture. I never said to you or anyone that I am against worshipping Christ.
Stick to facts instead of making up fables.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore,, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
This is obviously Jesus speaking. Jesus (Jehovah); The First and Last. Jesus is the one “that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore”. No amount of “twist” can deny this fact.
Isa 44:6 So says Jehovah, the King of Israel, and His redeemer Jehovah of Hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and besides Me there is no God.
Furthermore, Jesus is the Almighty God.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
2Pe 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction).
Quote (Cult Buster @ Aug. 23 2007,00:37) There you go misrepresenting me again just as you misrepresent scripture. I never said to you or anyone that I am against worshipping Christ. Stick to facts instead of making up fables.
The truth is that Jesus was worshipped/honoured as the son of God and as the Lamb of God. But not as the Most High God.The fable is that he was and is worshipped as God.
That is a fact.
Quote (Cult Buster @ Aug. 15 2007,23:41) Mr Steve. That is a silly way of avoiding the truth. Why does Thomas have to call Christ “God the Father” ?
You may try to create a diversion, but you are still faced with the confronting truth.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
2Pe 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction).
Mr Steve. Will you continue to pervert the truth to your own destruction?
Cultbuster….Again you can't see that if Thomas was referencing Jesus as God, He would have said (My lord God) not my Lord and my God. What you fail to see Jesus said all along the the Father was in Him, but he never said His was the Father or God. Thomas was Just comming to see that the Father was in Jesus. Two present in Jesus, Jesus the person we Know as the Christ and God the Father was also in Him, But because the Father was in Him did not make Him God. God conceders us temples where He can Dwell in through His Spirit. Thomas came to see that, the light went on so to speak and he realized it. To bad you can't.God is in all who Have His Spirit in them also but that does not make them a God nor did it make Jesus God either. But had you read where Jesus said the Father in me does the works you would have already known that. But you lack of understanding of other scriptures that explain clearly the difference between Jesus and God the FAther causes you to stumble in your understanding of truth. Did not Jesus plainly say “For thou art the (ONLY) true GOD. The word (THOU) does not mean the person speaking. Basic English 101. Before you through out your twisted understanding and accuse others of doing that you need to look at your self. Look at the history of your triniatrian fathers and there killing of true Christians who new the trinity was a lie, just read the history its all there. You trinitarians are in no position to say other are twisting the words of truth when you are the leader of the pack at twisting God's word.Ezra 5:12
But because our fathers angered the God of heaven, he handed them over to Nebuchadnezzar the Chaldean, king of Babylon, who destroyed this temple and deported the people to Babylon.Jeremiah 51:6
“Flee from Babylon! Run for your lives! Do not be destroyed because of her sins. It is time for the LORD's vengeance; he will pay her what she deserves.Revelation 18
4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
“Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
5 for her sins are piled up to heaven,
and God has remembered her crimes.Gene B
Quote Cultbuster….Again you can't see that if Thomas was referencing Jesus as God, He would have said (My lord God) not my Lord and my God. What you fail to see Jesus said all along the the Father was in Him, but he never said His was the Father or God Gene. Again you twist and pervert God's Word to suit your masonic doctrine. It is better that you accept the truth.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%2….m
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
2Pe 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction).
CultB has about 15 scriptures in his bible.
That is a small bible. But we know there are hundreds of scriptures that contradict his teaching.
Here is the first hundred for starters:
https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity-11.htmHe always gives the same scriptures because they are the only ones that look like they could agree with his theology when taken out of context or when they are mistranslated. You will notice that he always goes for the version that can be bent toward his theology too.
It is sad, but he has chosen to be deluded. His pride that says that he is right will ensure that he will not break free.
If he humbled himself, he might just let the truth set him free.
God is one. Not triune. But he will continues to preach this other Gospel that God is three, not one as scripture teaches.
t8
Quote The truth is that Jesus was worshipped/honoured as the son of God and as the Lamb of God. But not as the Most High God. The fable is that he was and is worshipped as God.
That is a fact.
t8. You are now trying to wriggle out of your corner.
Don't you know the scriptures? Worship belongs to God alone.
Rev 22:8 And I John am he that heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel that showed me these things.
Rev 22:9 And he saith unto me, See thou do it not: I am a fellow-servant with thee and with thy brethren the prophets, and with them that keep the words of this book: worship God.Jesus was worshipped says t8. Jesus is God.
2Pe 3:16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable pervert, as also they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction).
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