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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 19 2007,08:47) And what about these srcriptures… Jn 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was madeCol 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodilyPhi 2:6
Who being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with GodTit 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ1Ti 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness God was manifest in the flesh1Jo 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding that we may know him that is true and we are in him that is true even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.Isa 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.Rev 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega (Jesus speaking), the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.Mic 5:2
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.Heb 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;Heb 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.1Jo 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.Isa 40:3
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.Gen 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image,Heb 1:6
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.Joh 20:28,29
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God (Theos).
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.Mar 2:28
herefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Exo 20:10
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:Joh 5:17
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Joh 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
(John didnt refute the statement of the Jews, in fact if John wasnt a trinitarian then he wouldnt have quoted them without denying their claim.)Mat 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.Acts 7:59,
“And they stoned Stephen, “calling upon God”, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my
Hi WJ,I haven't forgotten about you and these scriptures. To be honest though, it's a bit overwhelming for me to answer them all. I have given my thoughts on quite a few of these already through various other posts.
Can you narrow it down to a couple that I can answer for you, if you still wish? I do better with shorter posts and lists of scriptures. Thanks!
Quote (t8 @ June 21 2007,15:40) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 20 2007,17:30) t8 Theos and Elohim are not synonymous!
Meditate on this.
1336 times the word “Theos” is found in the New Testament scriptures.
All were translated “God” referring to the Father and Yeshua, exept 13 times for “False gods” including satan and the man of sin and man, and eight times Godly.
Now if you want to make Jesus just a man, well what can I say.
I checked them all. Not once out of all 1336 times is there a mention of any Angel of God with the word “Theos”.
To WJ.Theos is often used when quoting Old Testament scriptures with the word 'elohim'.
E.g.,
John 10:34
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods (theos)'This is a quote from:
Psalms 82:6 (English-NIV)
“I said, `You are “gods” (elohim); you are all sons of the Most High.'So for starters here is a clear example of elohim and theos being attributed to men or sons of the Most High. So that alone shows that it is not used exclusively of God.
Here is elohim being used to describe angels:
Psalm 97:7
All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idols; worship him, all you gods (elohim)!According to the NASB, the part of the New Testament where this is quoted is:
Hebrews 1:6
6 And when He again (A)brings the firstborn into (B)the world, He says,
“LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”This may or may not be the case, but regardless of that outcome, elohim is translated as theos and it most certainly includes men or sons of the Most High God at the very least.
So as you can see these words are not exclusively talking about God.
As far as usage for theos goes, it is in most cases used to describe the Father exclusively. After that it is probably used to decribe false gods or idols, followed by Christ, then men.
Here are 100 verses where God is used exclusively of the Father:
https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity-11.htmIt would be interesting to do a side by side comparison of 'theos' describing Christ and 'theos' describing idols.
But 'theos' describing Christ side by side with describing the Father is no contest.
It is not as easy as theos being used exclusively of God and Jesus. You also have to add in man and possibly angels too. This may be a thorn in your side, but ignoring it won't make this fact go away.
Elohim is definately used for God, Jesus, men, and angels, as well as false gods and idols.
t8Your interpretation of Jn 10:34 is a straw. Jesus is “quoting” an OT verse to expose their hypocrisy for critisizing him for saying he was the “Son of God”.
He was not making a doctrinal statement!
In fact good hermenuetics says you do not build doctrine on “one verse”.
Also you have no NT example of “True theos” applied to any living king, prophet, apostle, Angel etc., other than Yahshua and the Father.
But, lets just say that what you say is true t8.
Jesus is “a god”.
Then you have a huge problem dont you?
Your doctrine teaches that God made everything through a lesser god or a lessor being.
Which is diabolically apposed to Hebrew scriptures. Look!
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and *there is no God else beside me*; a just God and a Saviour; *there is none beside me*.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for *I am God, and there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,
How do you explain this t8?
If you dont accept the truth about YHWH in the flesh, then maybe you should join the “Unitarians”, for their argument is more honorable than yours!
It is a serious thing to teach falsly!
Hi W,
No matter what difficulties you may find aligning verses
there is NO EXCUSE FOR INTRODUCING EXTRANEOUS THEORIES,
developed by men from outside scripture, to try and resolve them.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 26 2007,09:16) Hi W,
No matter what difficulties you may find aligning verses
there is NO EXCUSE FOR INTRODUCING EXTRANEOUS THEORIES,
developed by men from outside scripture, to try and resolve them.
NHIs that all you have to my “sincere questions?.
Is there anything about my post “outside of scripture”?
Please, show me where, instead of just making “EXTRANEOUS COMMENTS”
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 26 2007,09:34) Hi W,
Trinity theory is extraneous to scripture.
We cannot add to scripture.
Abhor it.
NHYou are guilty of what you preach!
These are your own words…
Quote Scripture does not say the Word WAS a man but WAS rather God with God. What do you think?
He certainly was not the God he was with.But the scriptures say “Only God” created all things “by himself!”
Your doctrine teaches that God made everything through a “lesser god” or “lessor being”.
You are denying the Hebrew scriptures. Look!
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and *there is no God else beside me*; a just God and a Saviour; *there is none beside me*.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for *I am God, and there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,Do you see how you have added to scripture?
Zech 7:11
But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 27 2007,10:55) But the scriptures say “Only God” created all things “by himself!” Your doctrine teaches that God made everything through a “lesser god” or “lessor being”.
You are denying the Hebrew scriptures. Look!
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and *there is no God else beside me*; a just God and a Saviour; *there is none beside me*.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for *I am God, and there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,
I personally would like to see these scriptures, which WJ has quoted, addressed by you NH. It doesn't seem to much to ask.Hi Is 1.18,
I am encouraging him to rely on revelation as proof for his doctrines.
He wants to pull manmade trinity theory and other magic tricks out of his hat to say it is the only way to resolve scripture.
But manmade theories are ananthema to be added to scripture for any reason if we call ourselves followers of Christ who did no such thing and would have abhorred the very idea.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 27 2007,10:55) But the scriptures say “Only God” created all things “by himself!” Your doctrine teaches that God made everything through a “lesser god” or “lessor being”.
You are denying the Hebrew scriptures. Look!
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and *there is no God else beside me*; a just God and a Saviour; *there is none beside me*.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for *I am God, and there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,
I personally would like to see these scriptures, which WJ has quoted, addressed by you NH. It doesn't seem to much to ask.Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 27 2007,12:26) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 27 2007,10:55) But the scriptures say “Only God” created all things “by himself!” Your doctrine teaches that God made everything through a “lesser god” or “lessor being”.
You are denying the Hebrew scriptures. Look!
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and *there is no God else beside me*; a just God and a Saviour; *there is none beside me*.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for *I am God, and there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,
I personally would like to see these scriptures, which WJ has quoted, addressed by you NH. It doesn't seem to much to ask.
Is 1:18Yes, me to.
But I doubt there will be a response, seeing that there is no explanation for their Henotheistic views in light of the scriptures.
They have 2 masters and 2 lords. 'A greater being” and “a lessor being”.
They claim they are Monotheist, however their belief that there are “many gods”, betrays them.
Especially when they try to make our Lord into one of these “gods” that was with God and by whom they say God created all things through.
Clearly there is a deep black hole in their theology, since the scriptures proclaim that “God Alone” created all things.
They refused Jesus words also when he claimed to be the “I AM”.
Hi W,
You would be in a better position to judge others
if you could align scripture
without adding to it.worshiping jesus> the statement (My lord and My God) is easly aswered ,didn”t Jesus say that the Father was in Him, no matter what Jesus did the Father was their. If you could only see that their were two beings in Jesus Christ Body. God is spirit not flesh but He can cohabit with us in our bodies which He conceders as temples to dwell in.
at times God spoke first person through a person a good example was when the words ( destroy this temple and in three day's I will raise it up) that was not Jesus talking it was the Father in Him speaking. doesn't it say in many places it was God who raised Jesus from the dead. Jesus did not raise himself or he couldn't have been dead.
another good example of when God spoke first person through Jesus was when He said (Jeruslam, Jeruslam, you who killed the prophets how often would I have gathered you but you would not.
Jesus also told us not to think about what we are to say if put on trial, for it would be given unto us that very time and he said it would NOT be us talking but Our Heavenly Father putting the words in our mouth.at that very moment.
another words God would take over the situation in a first person action. this happened often with Jesus also.
we are temples in which our Heavenly Father can indwell and at times speaks First Person through us. But that does not Make us a God
nor did it Make Jesus a God.the apostles all Knew God the Father was in Christ isn't that's what He said (the Father who is in me He doth the works) they reconized the existance of two beings present.
So it would not be wrong to say My Lord and my God.
but you and the rest of the trenitarians are sayiny they are one and the same person which is a false teaching.
if you quit pushing false trenitarian (Idologies) you might come to see the truth which is in front of your nose. Gene.???
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 29 2007,15:02) worshiping jesus> the statement (My lord and My God) is easly aswered ,didn”t Jesus say that the Father was in Him, no matter what Jesus did the Father was their. If you could only see that their were two beings in Jesus Christ Body. God is spirit not flesh but He can cohabit with us in our bodies which He conceders as temples to dwell in. at times God spoke first person through a person a good example was when the words ( destroy this temple and in three day's I will raise it up) that was not Jesus talking it was the Father in Him speaking. doesn't it say in many places it was God who raised Jesus from the dead. Jesus did not raise himself or he couldn't have been dead.
another good example of when God spoke first person through Jesus was when He said (Jeruslam, Jeruslam, you who killed the prophets how often would I have gathered you but you would not.
Jesus also told us not to think about what we are to say if put on trial, for it would be given unto us that very time and he said it would NOT be us talking but Our Heavenly Father putting the words in our mouth.at that very moment.
another words God would take over the situation in a first person action. this happened often with Jesus also.
we are temples in which our Heavenly Father can indwell and at times speaks First Person through us. But that does not Make us a God
nor did it Make Jesus a God.the apostles all Knew God the Father was in Christ isn't that's what He said (the Father who is in me He doth the works) they reconized the existance of two beings present.
So it would not be wrong to say My Lord and my God.
but you and the rest of the trenitarians are sayiny they are one and the same person which is a false teaching.
if you quit pushing false trenitarian (Idologies) you might come to see the truth which is in front of your nose. Gene.???
GBThe problem that you have is Thomas didnt say…
“MY LORD AND MY FATHER”, did he?
Listen again…
Jn 20:
28 And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, My Lord and my God.This passage seems to be so distressing to the Unitarians and Henotheist and Arians.
If I was one I would be stressed to.
How do you explain these contradictions?
You need to start believing the scriptures for what they say my friend!
You critisize me for having a Trinitarian faith.
I back my faith up with scriptures without the usual twisting and resting and ignoring them.
Jn 1:1, Math 28:19, John 20:28, Acts 20:28, Hebrews 1:8, 1 Tim 1:1 1 Jn 5:20, are just a few scriptures that support the deity of Jesus.
The Apostle John who witnessed Thomas acclamation toward Jesus also recorded Jn 1:1 and 1 Jn 5:20.
You should let go of your “Unitarian” belief and trust the Spirit of truth to open the scriptures to shew you all things concerning himself…Jesus the Word/God who came in the flesh, the Lord from heaven, YHWH who was pierced according to Zech 12:10 and Jn 19:37.
Have you read these proof text?…
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1278
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1311
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1375
Can you prove by scriptures that Jesus is not God?
Can you prove that the Trinitarian faith is false by scripture?
Please enlighten us my friend with your biblical proof!
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 29 2007,15:02) but you and the rest of the trenitarians are sayiny they are one and the same person which is a false teaching.
Incorrect. If you think this then you really have no idea about what the trinity doctrine teaches and you should go away and learn some of the fundamentals before you further embarrass yourself…..BTW, it's spelled trinitarian, not trenitarian.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 29 2007,16:56) The problem that you have is Thomas didnt say… “MY LORD AND MY FATHER”, did he?
Listen again…
Jn 20:
28 And Thomas answered and *said unto him*, My Lord and my God.This passage seems to be so distressing to the Unitarians and Henotheist and Arians.
If I was one I would be stressed to.
How do you explain these contradictions?
You need to start believing the scriptures for what they say my friend!
You critisize me for having a Trinitarian faith.
I back my faith up with scriptures without the usual twisting and resting and ignoring them.
Jn 1:1, Math 28:19, John 20:28, Acts 20:28, Hebrews 1:8, 1 Tim 1:1 1 Jn 5:20, are just a few scriptures that support the deity of Jesus.
The Apostle John who witnessed Thomas acclamation toward Jesus also recorded Jn 1:1 and 1 Jn 5:20.
You should let go of your “Unitarian” belief and trust the Spirit of truth to open the scriptures to shew you all things concerning himself…Jesus the Word/God who came in the flesh, the Lord from heaven, YHWH who was pierced according to Zech 12:10 and Jn 19:37.
Have you read these proof text?…
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1278
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1311
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1375
Can you prove by scriptures that Jesus is not God?
Can you prove that the Trinitarian faith is false by scripture?
Please enlighten us my friend with your biblical proof!
I agree WJ, this interpretation demonstrates the desperate measures some are driven to to explain away the blatant acknowledgement of Yeshua's deity by Thomas. Aside from the fact that this theory would add tremendous weight to the argument that the Holy Spirit is in fact God, there are several problems with the reasoning, here are three:1. The grammar in the verse (nominative was used for the vocative) shows that the Yahshua was the solitary recipient. “My Lord and my God” was “said to Him”…who is the Him? Yahshua!
2. Is there, in scripture, other examples of a vocal address which is directed at God indwelling a human subject? I know of none…..
3. Nothing in the context of the passage in which the address lies indicates that it was directed at anyone other than Yahshua. The verse does not read:
John 20:28
Then He said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hands and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” Thomas answered and said to the One that indwelt Him My Lord and my God'”(insertion mine) Therefore this explanation is implausible.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 28 2007,09:18) Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 27 2007,12:26) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 27 2007,10:55) But the scriptures say “Only God” created all things “by himself!” Your doctrine teaches that God made everything through a “lesser god” or “lessor being”.
You are denying the Hebrew scriptures. Look!
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and *there is no God else beside me*; a just God and a Saviour; *there is none beside me*.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for *I am God, and there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,
I personally would like to see these scriptures, which WJ has quoted, addressed by you NH. It doesn't seem to much to ask.
Is 1:18Yes, me to.
But I doubt there will be a response, seeing that there is no explanation for their Henotheistic views in light of the scriptures.
They have 2 masters and 2 lords. 'A greater being” and “a lessor being”.
They claim they are Monotheist, however their belief that there are “many gods”, betrays them.
Especially when they try to make our Lord into one of these “gods” that was with God and by whom they say God created all things through.
Clearly there is a deep black hole in their theology, since the scriptures proclaim that “God Alone” created all things.
They refused Jesus words also when he claimed to be the “I AM”.
There you go. God created everything Through Jesus. One God in Jesus and all who are born again. BTW where is the third person in this?The “third person” whom you refer to is the Holy Spirit. My thought is that he surrounds the Father and the Son and is the essence of life.
Hi ACC,
So having laid a false unbiblical foundation you build on it further speculations?The Spirit is the Spirit of God.
Jl 2
” 28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. “
Quote (kenrch @ June 30 2007,06:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 28 2007,09:18) Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 27 2007,12:26) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 27 2007,10:55) But the scriptures say “Only God” created all things “by himself!” Your doctrine teaches that God made everything through a “lesser god” or “lessor being”.
You are denying the Hebrew scriptures. Look!
Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and *there is no God else beside me*; a just God and a Saviour; *there is none beside me*.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for *I am God, and there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,
I personally would like to see these scriptures, which WJ has quoted, addressed by you NH. It doesn't seem to much to ask.
Is 1:18Yes, me to.
But I doubt there will be a response, seeing that there is no explanation for their Henotheistic views in light of the scriptures.
They have 2 masters and 2 lords. 'A greater being” and “a lessor being”.
They claim they are Monotheist, however their belief that there are “many gods”, betrays them.
Especially when they try to make our Lord into one of these “gods” that was with God and by whom they say God created all things through.
Clearly there is a deep black hole in their theology, since the scriptures proclaim that “God Alone” created all things.
They refused Jesus words also when he claimed to be the “I AM”.
There you go. God created everything Through Jesus. One God in Jesus and all who are born again. BTW where is the third person in this?
KI think you misunderstand me
Of course all things were made by or through Jesus.
Which is proof that Jesus is God!
For John in Jn 1:3 and Paul in Col 1 and the Hebrew writer in Heb 1 were strict montheistic Jews who new the Hebrew scriptures.
Do you think they would have recorded Jesus as the executer of creation according to Heb 1:10 knowing full well that only “God” created all things “By himself”.
Look for yourself…
Isa 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that *maketh all things*; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and *there is no God else beside me*; a just God and a Saviour; *there is none beside me*.Isa 46:9
Remember the former things of old: for *I am God, and there is none else*; I am God, and *there is none like me*,If you believe that God made all things through a “lessor being” or “a smaller god” or “another being” or “a thought or a plan” then you contradict the above Hebrew scriptures.
How do you explain this?
God is One.
As far as the Holy Spirit, you do believe that the Spirit was present in the creation dont you?
Gen 1:
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
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