- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Hi WJ,
Those who follow the teachings of Jesus have not left his body.
Those who prefer those of carnal men have.Quote (Gene @ Oct. 06 2009,09:51) Thinker ………..There is not end to the trinity teachings nearly (ALL) Christradom accepte it even if they don't understand it. So to finf fellow cohearts is easily done, just turn on any Christion TV Station or raido station there everwhere, But that does not make the teaching Right many are decieved, because the recieve (NOT) the LOVE of the TRUTH. SO they simply don't question the Doctrine and GOD send them a deluding SPirti in order to believe THE LIE , as 2 Ths 2 Shows. Many called (FEW) Chosen. The many believe the LIE of the TRINITY. IMO
gene
Gene,
I am NOT trying to prove my doctrine in this thread. I won't reply to arguments here. Nick said that I made up the view that the Messenger of YHWH was YHWH. He said that I “embarass” the trinitarians. My only purpose is to show that Nick is dead wrong. If he wants respect he should apologize for falsely accusing me.thinker
Hi TT,
Men following Tertullian have continued their wanderings ever since further and further into the murky wastelands of speculation.Come out of her.
Alec Motyer on the Messenger of the Lord:
Quote Exodus describes Moses' encounter with God as the angel of the LORD appearing to him. When we look at the other references to 'the Angel of the LORD' or 'the Angel of God', we find that he is someone very special indeed. A. B. Davidson put it this way: 'This Angel is not a created angel–He is Jehovah Himself in manifestation…identical with Jehovah, although also different.' Angels in general, writes Davidson, can represent one aspect or another of the divine nature but 'in the Angel of the Lord He is fully present.' Malachi 3:1 is a case in point, where 'The Lord (adon, the Sovereign)' and 'The messenger/Angel of the covenant' are in apposition: literally, 'Suddenly, the Lord whom you seek, the Angel of the covenant whom you desire, will come to his temple. Behold! He is coming! The LORD (yhwh) of hosts has said it!'
The coming of the Angel is the coming of Yahweh in all his sovereignty, yet Yahweh announces the coming of the Angel as though speaking of someone else. All this is amply borne out in the references to 'the Angel of the LORD' throughout the Old Testament.
http://against-heresies.blogspot.com/2009….-1.html
thinker
Thinker………Scripture says (NO) man has seen GOD at any time. Now you want us to believe that man has seen GOD , what bible do you preach from ?. That even proves that Jesus was not a GOD, because Men have seen Jesus, unless you believe like the Gnostic's believed Jesus was under disguise, he only appeared Human, so we could not recognize he was really a GOD that came from the Pelora of GODS. You cant go against what scripture plainly say and expect us to believe you thinker. “NO MAN HAS SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME” you argument is with Jesus and JOHN and Paul and not with US, we simple believe what they said, while you TRINITARIANS try to twist and wiggle your way around everything contrary to your false belief systems.
gene
Hi TT,
So some angels are in fact GOD according to your chosen experts?
Have you counted up your gods?CHRIST BEFORE BETHLEHEM
Dr. Erwin W. LutzerQuote At Christmastime it’s understandable that we focus on the birth of Christ. Many years ago when our oldest daughter was a child, she asked me this question, “Who was looking after the world when God was a baby?” The answer to that question is that Christ was looking after the world even when He was a baby. That baby had a divine nature. He was God, and continued to be God, even as an infant. As God, He existed long before that holy night in Bethlehem.
Of all of us, it can be said that our existence began at our conception and our birth. But Jesus had actual existence before Bethlehem. What was He doing? Well, He was running the world He created. He was sustaining the world. He was interacting with human beings, and He was connecting God the Father with the human beings on this planet.
Did you realize that in the Old Testament whenever you read the expression “the Angel of the Lord” it is referring to Christ, the second person of the Trinity? In Exodus chapter 3 we read about Moses, who was called from the burning bush. “And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a blazing fire from the midst of the bush. And he looked, and behold, the bush was bunting with fire, and yet the bush was not consumed. And God called to him from the midst of the bush, and said, ‘Moses, Moses.’ And he said, ‘Here I am.’”
The Angel of the Lord of verse 2 is God. And later on, when the Lord reveals Himself to Moses, He says in verse 14, “I AM that I AM.” And it is the Angel of the Lord who is claiming deity, claiming to be God. But if the Angel of the Lord is God, what makes us think that it must be the second person of the Trinity, namely Christ?
Just stay with me! In the first chapter of Zechariah, the prophet is having a vision and the Angel of the Lord appears. We read, “The Angel of the Lord answered and said, ‘Oh Lord of Hosts, how long wilt Thou have no compassion for Jerusalem, and for the cities of Judah, with which Thou has been indignant these seventy years?’” And the Lord answered the Angel who was speaking with gracious words.
What’s happening here? The Angel of the Lord is interceding. Now follow carefully. The Angel of the Lord can be shown in the Old Testament to be nothing less than God. And yet we have Scripture like this that show Him to be distinct from Jehovah. There is only one explanation – it must be the second member of the Trinity, it must be Christ. And you have the Angel of the Lord talking to Jehovah God.
Then who could this be; who is doing this intercession but the second person of the Trinity? And just like in the New Testament, you have Jesus Christ talking to God the Father. In the same way in the Old Testament, Christ who is the “Angel of the Lord” is speaking to God the Father.
Interestingly, the Angel of the Lord never appears again in all of Scripture after the incarnation. You find Him only in the Old Testament. Now in the New Testament as well as in the Old Testament, you have many references to ‘an angel of the Lord.’ The Bible says that an angel, the angel Gabriel, came to Mary. But that is an angel of the Lord. The Angel of the Lord is always a reference to the second person of the Trinity. It is a reference to Christ. Theologians call it a theophany, that is, a manifestation of God in the Old Testament.
But there were thousands, perhaps millions of angels in the Bethlehem skies to welcome the birth of the Son of God… a fitting tribute to the King of Kings.
Let’s look briefly at three ministries that the Angel of the Lord performed in the Old Testament and that Christ still does today.
First of all, in the Old Testament as in the New Testament, He revealed God. Interestingly, in the New Testament in John 8:58 when Jesus was being accused. He said, “Before Abraham was, I AM.” And that’s why they took up stones to stone Him; they knew He had claimed to be God, Jehovah. The “I AM” of the Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament is the “I AM” of the incarnate Christ in the New Testament.
And may I add that if Jesus had not come to explain God, if there was no Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament, and if there was no Christ incarnate in the New Testament, we would have no idea as to what God is like. We would look at earthquakes, famines, hurricanes, and tornadoes and we would see the angry side of nature; we’d never know that God is love. We would never know that we could be reconciled to God. All that we could do is to grope in our blindness. How thankful we are that Christ explains God to us!
Secondly, He intercedes. If He is the revealer, He is also the intercessor. We read in Zechariah 3 that the Angel of the Lord is interceding on behalf of Joshua the high priest.
What does Jesus do for us today? He intercedes for us. The Bible says, “…it is Christ that died, yea rather that is risen again and is even now at the right hand of the throne of God, Who makes intercession for us. “
Third, He comforts His people.
In Genesis 16 we find the first time in all the Old Testament where the Angel of the Lord appears. There’s a woman by the name of Hagar who is living in the home of Abraham and Sarah. Sarah is barren; she can have no children. And yet God said, “Abraham, you are going to be the father of a multitude.”
So one day Sarah says to Abraham – and this was the custom in those days – “I am unable to bear children for you; have children with my servant, Hagar.” So Abraham accepted her suggestion and Hagar became pregnant. She bore a son called Ishmael and the conflict in the home was absolutely overwhelming. So Sarah begins to despise Hagar, and sends her out of the house.
Here is this lonely woman, kicked out of her house, alone, going through the desert, and she comes to a well. The Bible says that the Angel of the Lord appeared to Her. He said, “Hagar, don’t be discouraged; let Me comfort you. I want you to know that you will bear a child and I am going to bless him, too and make him also a father of a multitude.”
God saw this destitute, disappointed, rejected woman. And He sees you today in your apartment which is far too small. And He sees you in the midst of a family with all of its struggles and hassles. And He has eyes that look into your room and even into your ghetto, whatever that might be, and God sees you there.
The Angel of the Lord in the Old Testament comforted those who were hurting. And in the New Testament, Jesus does the same thing. “Come unto Me all ye who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest.”
I know what you’re thinking. You’re saying, “Well, Pastor Lutzer, why the incarnation? Why didn’t the Angel of the Lord just keep on ministering to people, comforting them, interceding for them, revealing God to them? Why Bethlehem? Why Christmas?”
Here’s where the news becomes breathtaking. It’s because there were some things the Angel of the Lord could not do unless He assumed human form: therefore the Word would become flesh. For this I want you to turn to the book of Hebrews and find four or five ministries that Christ can have only as man, that He could never have had as the Angel of the Lord. What a wonder the incarnation is!
Number one, He could not be our Savior. God could not forgive our sins, finally and eternally, until He became one of us, to become a sacrifice for us. We read, “Jesus upholds all things by the word of His power, and when He made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high” (Hebrews 1:3).
Why couldn’t the Angel of the Lord simply wipe out people’s sins? Why the need for the incarnation? Because, without the shedding of blood, there is no re
mission of sins. And you could not take the Angel of the Lord and nail him to a cross, could you? And if you could, there would be no blood. There had to be someone who would become like us to redeem us. And blood had to be shed, and a sacrifice had to be made. And for that, Christ had to become one with us.Notice, to become Israel’s king He had to become a member of the human race. He had to come through the lineage that had been predicted – the lineage of David.
And then also, He had to become one of our brothers. In the book of Hebrews we read, “For both He who sanctifies, and those who are sanctified…,” that’s a reference to us,“…we are all from one Father, for which reason He…”, that is, Christ, “is not ashamed to call them His brethren.”
Isn’t this astounding? Do you realize what benefits come to those who believe in Christ? We have God as our Father; we have Christ as our brother.
He also had to become man to become our high priest. Later on in the book of Hebrews it says that “we do not have a high priest who cannot be touched with the feelings of our infirmities.” No, we have somebody who partook of flesh and blood, somebody who was hungry and thirsty, who knew the power of rejection. Somebody who hurt when stones were thrown at Him. And Somebody who felt the full effect of the whippings and the beatings that He received on His way to the cross.
The exaltation of Jesus reminds us of our own triumph. The fact that He is in heaven today is evidence that we will participate with Him as heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ.
You may wonder how to get in on all these benefits. Are they ours simply because we are human? Emphatically, No! There are multitudes who will never benefit from the coming of Jesus Christ. In fact, they will be judged by Him. You must begin by understanding the real purpose of Christ’s coming; the entry point is becoming one of His children. It’s the entry point of forgiveness, receiving the gift of eternal life.
Many years ago, I am told, during the days of Czar Nicholas of Russia, a young man whose father was a friend of the Czar was given a great responsibility. He was charged with doling out the money to the troops in the barracks. The problem was that this young man had a gambling habit. He used the troops’ money and was losing it rapidly. The troops were not being paid. An awesome debt was mounting. When he was told that Czar Nicholas himself was going to come to look at the books, he sat down and found out how much he owed and then wrote beneath it, “Too much to pay! Who can pay?” He put a gun at his side and said that at midnight he would do the only honorable thing – blow his brains out!
As he was sitting there, he fell asleep. The Czar himself walked by and had heard stories of the young man’s dishonesty. He looked at the ledger and was ready to have him arrested. But then when he saw those words, “Too much to pay! Who can pay?”, his heart was touched. The Czar himself wrote under the words in the ledger, “Nicholas can pay.” And when the young man awoke, he checked the authenticity of the signature and found that it truly was that of Nicholas. He was so overwhelmed that he became a most loyal supporter of Nicholas from that time on. Because in truth, only one person could pay, and that was Nicholas, the highest ranking representative of the government.
And that’s the bottom line of the Christmas story. Not one of us can pay. The debt is too much. Our sin is too great. But thankfully, Jesus Christ can pay and He came to pay. Not as the Angel of the Lord, but He came as man. The Word became flesh, and He died on a cross. He shed real blood that dripped onto some real dirt. He felt some real pain on a roughly hewn real cross and He died for sinners.
And for those who now say, “I have nothing to pay but I cast myself upon His mercy totally,” they receive from Him the words, “Christ can pay.” And then along with the forgiveness comes the brotherhood of Christ, comes the high priesthood of Christ, comes the exaltation with Christ.
And it’s all free when we repent of our sins and believe.
All rights reserved for all transcripts, and all material. ©2004 The Moody Church, Chicago. Permission is granted to print and/or store the contents in computer form provided the content is not changed in any way
http://www.moodychurch.org/radio/transcripts/Christbefore.html
thinker
Quote (Gene @ Oct. 06 2009,12:00) Thinker………Scripture says (NO) man has seen GOD at any time. Now you want us to believe that man has seen GOD , what bible do you preach from ?. That even proves that Jesus was not a GOD, because Men have seen Jesus, unless you believe like the Gnostic's believed Jesus was under disguise, he only appeared Human, so we could not recognize he was really a GOD that came from the Pelora of GODS. You cant go against what scripture plainly say and expect us to believe you thinker. “NO MAN HAS SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME” you argument is with Jesus and JOHN and Paul and not with US, we simple believe what they said, while you TRINITARIANS try to twist and wiggle your way around everything contrary to your false belief systems.
gene
GeneQuote (Gene @ Oct. 06 2009,12:00) Thinker………Scripture says (NO) man has seen GOD at any time. Now you want us to believe that man has seen GOD , what bible do you preach from ?
Yet Jesus said that he had seen God. Moses saw God, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Isaiah saw God!Jesus said if they saw him they were seeing God!
So what bible do you read?
WJ
Hi WJ,
Your God is too small.
God manifests in many ways in His creation but He is in heaven where His son Jesus told us to pray to Him..The trinity is not of God, but of men. It was Tetrtullian who founded the trinity. He was born to Pagan Parents in A.D. 155 and he studied Philosohpy, Greek and Latin. It is said that the trinity is his best achievement to Christianity. The first Christians did not keep that doctrine.
Deut. 4:35 ” Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightiest know that the LORD He is God; there is none else beside Him.”Deut. 6:4 “Hear O Israel; The LORD our God is ONE LORD.”
1Corinth. 8:4 “And that there is none other God, but ONE.”
Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is above all and in us all.
John 14: 28…..for my Father is greater then I.
1 Corinth. 11:3 The head of every men is Christ, the head of a Woman is man, and the head of Christ
is God.Math. 15:6 In vain do they worship Me, teaching the doctrine the commandment of men.
Rev. 18:4 Come out of her my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.
Don't you wonder W.J. and thinker and all those who keep the trinity doctrine, why those two last Scriptures were written?
Peace and Love Irene
To All,
I repeat that I am not replying to arguments in this thread. Nick said that my views of the Messenger of the Lord are not trinitarian and that trinitarians are hiding from me in embarassment. I am just “leading on” as Nick exhorted.A. A. Hodge on the Messenger of the Lord:
Quote Though no analogy exists by which we may illustrate the mysterious person of Christ, there is a most remarkable type in Exodus 3:2-6. The “flame of fire” in the midst of the “bush,” was an emblem of the presence of God indwelling the Man Christ Jesus. Observe that the One who appeared there to Moses is termed, first, “the angel of the LORD,” which declares the relation of Christ to the Father, namely, “the angel (messenger) of the covenant.” But secondly, this angel said unto Moses, “I am the God of Abraham,” that is what He was absolutely in Himself. The fire—emblem of Him who is a “consuming fire”—placed itself in a bush (a thing of the earth), where it burned, yet the bush was not consumed. A remarkable foreshadowing this was of the “fullness of the Godhead,” dwelling in Christ (Col. 2:9). That this is the meaning of the type is clear, when we read of “The good will of him that dwelt in the bush” (Deut. 33:16). http://www.pbministries.org/books…._30.htm
thinker
Hi TT,
You say you are a leader but you keep offering us the musings of other men.
Should Jesus not be your teacher?Wil pounds on the Messenger of the Lord:
Quote Several things stand out about this angel in various passages of Scripture. “The angel of the LORD” was a divine personage and “He is to be regarded as a kind of pre–incarnation of the Messiah.” The identity of “the angel of the LORD” with Yahweh is fully established in v. 13. “Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, 'You are a God who sees'; for she said, 'Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?'” The angel of the LORD is not a created being, but the divine being Himself. He is “in a class by Himself and recognized as a superior being by the writers of the Old Testament.”
This is no ordinary messenger of God. He doesn't say, “God will.” He says, “I will greatly multiply your descendents.” Examine Genesis 18:19–21 and note who is speaking and who is making the promises to Abraham. “The angel of the LORD” in chapter seventeen is “God” in chapter eighteen. The angel of the LORD is God Himself.
The angel of the LORD definitely identifies Himself with Yahweh on various occasions. In verse ten, “Moreover, the angel of the Lord said to her, 'I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they will be too many to count.'”
The angel of the LORD reveals Himself to people and THEY UNDERSTAND HIM TO BE A DIVINE PERSON (16:13).
The writers of the Old Testament call Him Yahweh (LORD). In a time of crisis the angel of the LORD visited Gideon to give encouragement (Judges 6:11–24). It climaxes with worship in verse 20–21, “The angel of God said to him, 'Take the meat and the unleavened bread and lay them on this rock, and pour out the broth.' And he did so. Then the angel of the Lord put out the end of the staff that was in his hand and touched the meat and the unleavened bread; and fire sprang up from the rock and consumed the meat and the unleavened bread. Then the angel of the Lord vanished from his sight.” Note carefully what happens next. “When Gideon saw that he was the angel of the Lord, he said, 'Alas, O Lord God! For now I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face.' The Lord said to him, 'Peace to you, do not fear; you shall not die.' Then Gideon built an altar there to the Lord and named it The Lord is Peace. To this day it is still in Ophrah of the Abiezrites” (vv. 2–24).
The doctrine of the trinity of the Godhead is here implied. This theophany is in perfect accordance with the earlier foreshadowing. He is perfectly equal with God––essentially one with God, yet a distinct person from Yahweh (cf. 16:10; 17:20). Judges 2:1 has an interesting observation about the exodus. “Now the angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim. And he said, 'I brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land which I have sworn to your fathers; and I said, ‘I will never break My covenant with you, and as for you, you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars.’ But you have not obeyed Me; what is this you have done?”
The angel of the LORD appeared to Manoah and his wife promising them a son (Judges 13:2–23). The passage reaches its climax in verses 19–22. Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, for we have seen God” (v. 22). The angel of the LORD is God….…A theophany is a manifestation of God in visible and bodily form before the incarnation of Jesus Christ. The theophanies are chiefly appearances of the angel of the LORD, who is clearly distinct from angelic beings. They are actual occurrences, not imaginary, not hallucinatory experiences. They take place in historical settings initiated only by God.
Who is this angel of the LORD? The earliest church fathers and most conservative evangelical Bible scholars agree that the angel of the LORD is no one other than Jesus Christ, the Word of God, the second person of the God–head. These theophanies are preincarnate appearances of God the Son in human form. The angel of the LORD appeared only in the Old Testament. Theophanies are unknown in the New Testament after the permanent incarnation of Christ.
In the fullness of time, “the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. . . No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him” (John 1:14, 18). When you look into the face of the Lord Jesus Christ, you see the face of God. In Him, we have the perfect vision of what God is like. Jesus said, “He who has seen Me has seen the Father.”
——————————————————————————–
Wil Pounds is the Field Director for the Honduras Baptist Dental Mission in Tegucigalpa and central Honduras. Previous to God directing them to Honduras, Wil and Ann served as missionaries in Panama, Ecuador and pastored churches in the U. S. They made numerous trips to Honduras with medical and evangelism teams before assuming their new field responsibilities.
http://www.reformationonline.com/angel.htm
Did you notice how many times the people to whom the Messenger appeared said that they had seen God Himself?
thinker
Genesis 16:7-16
Quote An agel of the LORD found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, the spring on the road to Shur, 8. and said, “Hagar, slave of Sarai, where have you come from, and where are you going?” And she said, “I am running away from my mistress Sarai.” 9. And the angel of the LORD said to her, “Go back to your mistress, and submit to her harsh treatment.” 10. And the angel of the LORD said to her, “I will greatly increase your offspring, and they shall be too many to count.” “And the angel of the LORD said to her, “I will greatly increase your offspring..” … Does that sound familiar? It should — that’s exactly what the LORD our GOD promised father Abraham. How can an angel speak in the first person so as if he is not just speaking for GOD, but is speaking as GOD?
Immediately after the angel leaves, Hagar praises the LORD, saying “You Are El-roi,” by which she meant, says the Tanakh, “Have I not gone on seeing after He saw me!” There’s this interesting phrase that appears quite often in the footnotes of the Tanakh — “meaning of Hebrew uncertain.” This notates Hagar’s exclamation above. Is the meaning really so uncertain? Who is worried about dying because GOD has spoken with and seen them? …Isn’t it usually the other way around — men think they will die for having seen GOD (or in this case, for seeing GOD’s presence in the angel of the LORD)? Why would Hagar say, “Have I not gone on seeing after He saw me!” … I find it quite likely Hagar was astonished that she was still alive after seeing and speaking with GOD… who appeared to her as this “angel of the LORD.” This angel of the LORD spoke as GOD and not for GOD. He did not say ‘the LORD says.’ He said, “I will greatly increase your offspring.”
I would like to know where in the Holy Scriptures where it says GOD cannot appear as a man.”
http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008….2%80%99
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 11 2009,15:16) Hi TT,
Your source has a very small god.
It is your god that is small. You say He cannot become a man.thinker
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
