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Nick said to Constitutionalist:
Quote Hi Con,
Poor TT believes God is a community following the trinity folly and is adding members like angels as he goes along.
None are following him and the trinitarians hide away in embarrassment.
To All,
Nick's statement above relects that he does not know what trinitarians believe. He thinks that trinitarians are hiding from me in embarassment. Fact is, I argue traditional trinitarian views on the Messenger of the LORD. Note the following from a trinitarian book titled Christ in the Old Testament,Quote …Exodus 3:2-6 seems quite conclusive in equating “the angel [messenger] of the LORD” with God. Verse 2 states that the Angel [messenger] of the LORD was in the burning bush. Verse 4 says that after Moses turned aside to see the wonder, the Lord saw him, and “God called unto him in the midst of the bush.” As George Bush notes, “The phraseology shows that the term 'Lord' here is used interchangeably with 'Angel.' “ Again, Exodus 3:6 is very clear when it records this Angel [messenger] as saying, “I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face for he was afraid to look upon God.” …note Judges 6, where Gideon's meeting with the “angel [messenger] of the LORD” is recorded. In verse 12, “the angel [messenger] of the LORD appeared to Him” and began to speak. In verse 13 Gideon replied. In verse 14 the narrative continues, “The LORD looked upon him, and said.” And so as the story unfolds, “the LORD” and “the angel [messenger] of the LORD” are used interchangeably. Again and again the Bible equates this Messenger with God (Christ in the Old Testament, James a Borland, Moody Press, p. 38, all brackets and emphasis mine).
The book I cited above is a textbook from one of my courses in Bible College. The copyright on the book cited above is 1978 and contains an excerpt from trinitarian George Bush who wrote his book in 1850. He also cites Henry Cowles who was a contemporary with Bush.
Nick needs to read more and know what trinitarians say before he goes around saying that I embarass them. Nick is not interested in facts. I have said over and over again that the Messenger was Christ. I have never added angels to the Godhead. Nick is not interested in promoting understanding. He just spouts off the way he does because he cannot defend his own position.
See the link below for a very brief summary on the identity of the messenger of the Lord.
http://www.journeyintothebible.com/jitb-en…._01.pdf
thinker
Hi TT,
It is quite plain that the confusion arising from the trinity folly is utter.
They no longer know the God of Jesus and Israel.Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 04 2009,18:55) Nick said to Constitutionalist: Quote Hi Con,
Poor TT believes God is a community following the trinity folly and is adding members like angels as he goes along.
None are following him and the trinitarians hide away in embarrassment.
To All,
Nick's statement above relects that he does not know what trinitarians believe. He thinks that trinitarians are hiding from me in embarassment. Fact is, I argue traditional trinitarian views on the Messenger of the LORD. Note the following from a trinitarian book titled Christ in the Old Testament,Quote …Exodus 3:2-6 seems quite conclusive in equating “the angel [messenger] of the LORD” with God. Verse 2 states that the Angel [messenger] of the LORD was in the burning bush. Verse 4 says that after Moses turned aside to see the wonder, the Lord saw him, and “God called unto him in the midst of the bush.” As George Bush notes, “The phraseology shows that the term 'Lord' here is used interchangeably with 'Angel.' “ Again, Exodus 3:6 is very clear when it records this Angel [messenger] as saying, “I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face for he was afraid to look upon God.” …note Judges 6, where Gideon's meeting with the “angel [messenger] of the LORD” is recorded. In verse 12, “the angel [messenger] of the LORD appeared to Him” and began to speak. In verse 13 Gideon replied. In verse 14 the narrative continues, “The LORD looked upon him, and said.” And so as the story unfolds, “the LORD” and “the angel [messenger] of the LORD” are used interchangeably. Again and again the Bible equates this Messenger with God (Christ in the Old Testament, James a Borland, Moody Press, p. 38, all brackets and emphasis mine).
The book I cited above is a textbook from one of my courses in Bible College. The copyright on the book cited above is 1978 and contains an excerpt from trinitarian George Bush who wrote his book in 1850. He also cites Henry Cowles who was a contemporary with Bush.
Nick needs to read more and know what trinitarians say before he goes around saying that I embarass them. Nick is not interested in facts. I have said over and over again that the Messenger was Christ. I have never added angels to the Godhead. Nick is not interested in promoting understanding. He just spouts off the way he does because he cannot defend his own position.
See the link below for a very brief summary on the identity of the messenger of the Lord.
http://www.journeyintothebible.com/jitb-en…._01.pdf
thinker
Mal'ak is used nowhere in scripture as God.Quote English word Angels: Hebrew: Mal'ak: Messenger, representative, unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy.
Human beings as Mal'ak:
Genesis 42:3; 32:6; Numbers 20:14; 21:21; 22:5; 24:12; Deuteronomy 2:26; Joshua 6:17; 6:25; 7:22; Judges 6:35; 7:24; 9:31; 11:12; 11:13; 11:14; 11:17; 11:19; 1Samuel 6:21; 11:3; 11:4; 11:7; 11:9; 16:19; 19:11; 19:14; 19:15; 19:16; 19:20; 19:21; 23:27; 25:14; 25:42; 2Samuel 2:5; 3:12; 3:14; 3:26; 5:11; 11:4; 11:19; 11:22; 11:23; 11:25; 11:27; 1Kings 19:2; 20:2; 20:5; 20:9; 22:13; 2Kings 1:2; 1:5; 1:16; 5:10; 6:32; 6:33; 7:15; 9:18; 10:8; 14:8; 16:7; 17:4; 19:9; 19:14; 19:23; 1Chronicles 14:1; 19:2; 19:16; 2Chronicles 18:2; 36:15; Nehemiah 6:3; Job 1:14; 33:23; 13:17; Isaiah 14:32; 18:2; 37:9; 37:14; 42:19; 44:26; Jeremiah 27:3; 23:16; 23:40; 30:9; Nahum 2:13; Haggai 1:13; Malachi 2:7; 3:1
Wicked human beings as Mal'ak:
Proverbs 13:17; 16:14; 17:11;
Ambassadors are Mal'ak:
2Chronicles 25:21; Isaiah 18:2; 30:4; 33:7; Ezekiel 17:15
Human beings and English word Angels/Angel of the LORD together as Mal'ak:
2Kings 1:3
English word Angels and/or Angel of the LORD is used as Mal'ak over 102 times in scripture.
Easton's Bible Dictionary: Messenger: (Heb. mal'ak, Gr. angelos), an angel, a messenger who runs on foot, the bearer of despatches.
International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia: Messenger: Mes’-en-jer: The regular Hebrew word for “messenger” is mal’akh, the Greek aggelos. This may be a human messenger or a messenger of God, an angel. The context must decide the right translation, the prophet is called God’s messenger. The Greek apostolos, “apostle,” is rendered “messenger.” Translations literally, from Hebrew basar, “to tell good news,” “he that brought the tidings.”
And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush [was] not consumed. And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here [am] I. And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest [is] holy ground. Moreover he said, I [am] the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2-6
Quote …Exodus 3:2-6 seems quite conclusive in equating “the angel [messenger] of the LORD” with God. Verse 2 states that the Angel [messenger] of the LORD was in the burning bush. Verse 4 says that after Moses turned aside to see the wonder, the Lord saw him, and “God called unto him in the midst of the bush.” As George Bush notes, “The phraseology shows that the term 'Lord' here is used interchangeably with 'Angel.' ” Again, Exodus 3:6 is very clear when it records this Angel [messenger] as saying, “I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face for he was afraid to look upon God.” …note Judges 6, where Gideon's meeting with the “angel [messenger] of the LORD” is recorded. In verse 12, “the angel [messenger] of the LORD appeared to Him” and began to speak. In verse 13 Gideon replied. In verse 14 the narrative continues, “The LORD looked upon him, and said.” And so as the story unfolds, “the LORD” and “the angel [messenger] of the LORD” are used interchangeably. Again and again the Bible equates this Messenger with God (Christ in the Old Testament, James a Borland, Moody Press, p. 38, all brackets and emphasis mine).
And the [BOLD][Mal'ak][/BOLD] angel of the [BOLD][Yĕhovah][/BOLD] LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush [was] not consumed. And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this grea
t sight, why the bush is not burnt. And when the [BOLD][Yĕhovah][/BOLD] LORD saw that he turned aside to see, [BOLD]['Elohiym][/BOLD]God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here [am] I. And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest [is] holy ground. Moreover he said, I [am] the [BOLD]['elohiym][/BOLD] God of thy father, the [BOLD]['elohiym][/BOLD] God of Abraham, the [BOLD]['elohiym][/BOLD] God of Isaac, and the [BOLD]['elohiym][/BOLD] God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon [BOLD]['elohiym][/BOLD] God. Exodus 3:2-6[BOLD]['Elohiym][/BOLD]: [BOLD]Is a Title[/BOLD], while it can apply to the ONE true God, it can also apply to rulers, judges, divine ones, angels, gods, goddesses, false gods, works or special possessions.
[BOLD][Yĕhovah][/BOLD]: The ONE true God.
Mal'ak is used nowhere in scripture as God. Mal'ak of Yĕhovah appeared in the burning bush. There is nothing interchangable here.
The opening verse the Hebrew word Yĕhovah for the English word LORD sets the precedence, it means the ONE true God. Where the Hebrew word 'Elohiym is used for the English word Lord further down in the other verses can be interchanged with the word Angel, it strengthens the argument that it was an Angel in the bush and not God:
Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 05 2009,13:55) Nick said to Constitutionalist: Quote Hi Con,
Poor TT believes God is a community following the trinity folly and is adding members like angels as he goes along.
None are following him and the trinitarians hide away in embarrassment.
To All,
Nick's statement above relects that he does not know what trinitarians believe. He thinks that trinitarians are hiding from me in embarassment. Fact is, I argue traditional trinitarian views on the Messenger of the LORD. Note the following from a trinitarian book titled Christ in the Old Testament,
No hiding or embarassment here. I unabashedly stand with TT.Lead on TT,
The possibilities for your multiple personality community god are endless for you and your followers.
Catholic dogmas rule OK?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 05 2009,16:45) Lead on TT,
The possibilities for your multiple personality community god are endless for you and your followers.
Catholic dogmas rule OK?
The Messenger Himself said, “I am the God of your fathers.” Moses turned away because he was afraid to look upon God.You don't even possess the humility to admit that you were wrong in saying that I made up my theology. You are not qualified to be a moderator.
thinker
Hi TT,
Our God is the God of the Israelites and Jesus.
You offer strange new community gods.
Babylon revisited?To All:
I am leading on as Nick requested.Matthew Henry on the Messenger of Jehovah in Exodus 3:
Quote The angel of the Lord, that spake in this place, is afterwards called Jehovah. How could this be said if the Son of God be not God coequal with the Father? (Matthew Henry Commentary on the Bible, Nelson Publishers, vol. 1, p. 134, all bold mine) Wycliffe on the same passage:
Quote This was not just an angel, but a manifestation of Jehovah Himself (v. 4; cf. Gen. 16:7; 22:11; 31:11-13; 48:15,16). Wycliffe Bible Commentary, Moody Press, p. 54, bold mine I will not be answering arguments on this thread. I am doing this elsewhere. I am just “leading on” with more documentation like Nick asked.
thinker
Another trinitarian on the identity of the Messenger of the Lord when He appeared to Hagar:
…Consequently, the “angel [messenger] of the Lord” met her and constrained her to return to Abram. This is the first occurrence of this phrase in the Bible, and the context indicates (verse 13) that this “angel” [messenger] was indeed God Himself, that is, another preincarnate appearance of the Messiah, (The Genesis Record, Henry M. Morris, Baker Book House, p. 330, brackets mine).
This was a textbook that was required for a course I took in Genesis. Copyright date is 1979.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 06 2009,05:36) Hi TT,
So you search for support outside of Scripture?
The trinity apostasy is very popular.
Nick,
It is beside the point. You said that I made up the interpretation that the Messenger of the Lord was God. You said that trinitarians are hiding in embarassment. You will think twice before spouting off again.The Messenger said to Moses, “I am the God of your fathers.” And He said to Hagar, “I will multiply your seed.”
And you can't refute it.
thinker
To All,
I continue to “lead on” by the prompting of Nick:John MacArthur comments on the Angel of the LORD noting that…
Quote This special individual spoke as though He were distinct from Yahweh, yet also spoke in the first person as though He were indeed to be identified as Yahweh Himself, with Hagar recognizing that in seeing this Angel, she had seen God (v. 13). Others had the same experience and came to the same conclusion (cf. Ge 22:11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18; 31:11, 12, 13; Ex 3:2, 3, 4, 5; Nu 22:22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35; Jdg 6:11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23; 13:2, 3, 4, 5; 1Ki 19:5, 6, 7). The Angel of the Lord, who does not appear after the birth of Christ, is often identified as the pre-incarnate Christ (Ed note: NT verses with phrase “angel of the Lord” appear but none are equated with Divinity as is the Angel in this OT passage and those surveyed below). (MacArthur, J.: The MacArthur Study Bible Nashville: Word or Logos) Warren Wiersbe comments that…
Quote This is the first appearance in Scripture of the Angel of the Lord, who is generally identified as our Lord Jesus Christ. In Genesis 16:10, the angel promised to do what only God can do; and in Genesis 16:13, Hagar called the angel “God.” These pre-Incarnation visits of Jesus Christ to the earth were to meet special needs and to accomplish special tasks. The fact that the Son of God took on a temporary body, left heaven, and came down to help a rejected servant-girl surely reveals His grace and love. His servants Abraham and Sarah had sinned against the Lord and against Hagar, but the Lord did not desert them. (Wiersbe, W. W. Be Obedient. Wheaton, Ill.: Victor Books) John Gill writes that this…
Quote This is the first time that mention is made of an angel in Scripture, but is not to be understood of a created angel, but of a divine Person, as appears from Genesis 16:10 (“I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they shall be too many to count” = essentially the same covenant promise Jehovah gave to Abraham in Genesis 22:17), the uncreated angel, the Logos or Son of God, called the Angel of God's presence, and the Angel of the covenant, Isa 63:9, Mal 3:1; who often appeared in an human form before his incarnation, being sent by his divine Father on one account or another; and hence called an angel, a messenger, or one sent, as in the fulness of time he was sent in human nature to be the Redeemer of his people; though many of the Jewish writers take this angel to be a man sent of God. Gersom {n} says he was one of the prophets that lived in those times, and observes, that some of their Rabbins say {o} he was Shem, the son of Noah; and Maimonides {p} suggests, that this angel was but a mere man, by comparing this passage with that in Ge 37:15, “a certain man found him”, &c. but the context most clearly confutes this notion, and proves him to be the almighty and omniscient God; since he promises to do what none but the omnipotent Being could do, and declares such things as none but the omniscient God could know: and when it is said he “found Hagar”, it is not to be understood as if it was a chance matter, or the fruit and effect of search and inquiry, or as if he had not seen her before; but rather it shows that his eye was upon her, and he had a concern for her, and at a proper time and place appeared to her at once, and unawares, and unthought of by her. And the place where he found her was (Gill, J. Exposition of the Entire Bible) Wenham in his commentary note on Genesis 16:7 writes that…
Quote The Angel of the Lord is mentioned 58 times in the OT, “the angel of God” 11 times. Angels of the Lord appear either singly as here or in groups. When first seen, they are usually taken to be men, but by the end of the encounter one of them is realized to be God (Genesis18:2, 22; Jdg 6:11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22; 13:3-22). When, as here, the text simply speaks of a single Angel of the Lord, this must be understood as God himself appearing in human form, a nearly always to bring good news or salvation. The Angel of the Lord appears frequently in Genesis and in the Book of Judges but rarely in the literature dealing with later periods. The exact relationship between the Angel and God himself has been the subject of much inconclusive discussion. The (Early Church) Fathers identified him with the Logos. …Within Genesis, the angel of the Lord tends to appear at moments of dire personal crisis (cf. Ge 21:17; 22:11, 15). (Wenham, G. J. Vol. 2: Word Biblical Commentary : Genesis 16-50. Word Biblical Commentary. Dallas: Word) http://www.preceptaustin.org/angel_of_the_lord.htm
thinker
Hi TT,
You will find far more who support the confusion of a trinity god.
But Jesus never taught of any trinity.
Why do you not listen to him?Quote (thethinker @ Oct. 05 2009,17:22) To All,
I continue to “lead on” by the prompting of Nick:John MacArthur comments on the Angel of the LORD noting that…
Quote This special individual spoke as though He were distinct from Yahweh, yet also spoke in the first person as though He were indeed to be identified as Yahweh Himself, with Hagar recognizing that in seeing this Angel, she had seen God (v. 13). Others had the same experience and came to the same conclusion (cf. Ge 22:11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18; 31:11, 12, 13; Ex 3:2, 3, 4, 5; Nu 22:22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35; Jdg 6:11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23; 13:2, 3, 4, 5; 1Ki 19:5, 6, 7). The Angel of the Lord, who does not appear after the birth of Christ, is often identified as the pre-incarnate Christ (Ed note: NT verses with phrase “angel of the Lord” appear but none are equated with Divinity as is the Angel in this OT passage and those surveyed below). (MacArthur, J.: The MacArthur Study Bible Nashville: Word or Logos) Warren Wiersbe comments that…
Quote This is the first appearance in Scripture of the Angel of the Lord, who is generally identified as our Lord Jesus Christ. In Genesis 16:10, the angel promised to do what only God can do; and in Genesis 16:13, Hagar called the angel “God.” These pre-Incarnation visits of Jesus Christ to the earth were to meet special needs and to accomplish special tasks. The fact that the Son of God took on a temporary body, left heaven, and came down to help a rejected servant-girl surely reveals His grace and love. His servants Abraham and Sarah had sinned against the Lord and against Hagar, but the Lord did not desert them. (Wiersbe, W. W. Be Obedient. Wheaton, Ill.: Victor Books) John Gill writes that this…
Quote This is the first time that mention is made of an angel in Scripture, but is not to be understood of a created angel, but of a divine Person, as appears from Genesis 16:10 (“I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they shall be too many to count” = essentially the same covenant promise Jehovah gave to Abraham in Genesis 22:17), the uncreated angel, the Logos or Son of God, called the Angel of God's presence, and the Angel of the covenant, Isa 63:9, Mal 3:1; who often appeared in an human form before his incarnation, being sent by his divine Father on one account or another; and hence called an angel, a messenger, or one sent, as in the fulness of time he was sent in human nature to be the Redeemer of his people; though many of the Jewish writers take this angel to be a man sent of God. Gersom {n} says he was one of the prophets that lived in those times, and observes, that some of their Rabbins say {o} he was Shem, the son of Noah; and Maimonides {p} suggests, that this angel was but a mere man, by comparing this passage with that in Ge 37:15, “a certain man found him”, &c. but the context most clearly confutes this notion, and proves him to be the almighty and omniscient God; since he promises to do what none but the omnipotent Being could do, and declares such things as none but the omniscient God could know: and when it is said he “found Hagar”, it is not to be understood as if it was a chance matter, or the fruit and effect of search and inquiry, or as if he had not seen her before; but rather it shows that his eye was upon her, and he had a concern for her, and at a proper time and place appeared to her at once, and unawares, and unthought of by her. And the place where he found her was (Gill, J. Exposition of the Entire Bible) Wenham in his commentary note on Genesis 16:7 writes that…
Quote The Angel of the Lord is mentioned 58 times in the OT, “the angel of God” 11 times. Angels of the Lord appear either singly as here or in groups. When first seen, they are usually taken to be men, but by the end of the encounter one of them is realized to be God (Genesis18:2, 22; Jdg 6:11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22; 13:3-22). When, as here, the text simply speaks of a single Angel of the Lord, this must be understood as God himself appearing in human form, a nearly always to bring good news or salvation. The Angel of the Lord appears frequently in Genesis and in the Book of Judges but rarely in the literature dealing with later periods. The exact relationship between the Angel and God himself has been the subject of much inconclusive discussion. The (Early Church) Fathers identified him with the Logos. …Within Genesis, the angel of the Lord tends to appear at moments of dire personal crisis (cf. Ge 21:17; 22:11, 15). (Wenham, G. J. Vol. 2: Word Biblical Commentary : Genesis 16-50. Word Biblical Commentary. Dallas: Word) http://www.preceptaustin.org/angel_of_the_lord.htm
thinker
But Jack, surely all those here who disagree who do not have a single credential knows more than the ones you quote and the many 100s of Greek and Hebrew Scholars and Commentators?Surely these qualified men you quote who have dedicated their entire lives to the Lord and the study of the Scriptures must be wrong.
Why just look at all the novices that disagree with them, surely we should follow them!
The Majority of the inspired scriptures were written by men who were well educated in their day!
Moses for example who was responsible for the Pentateuch was trained by the very best in Egypt.
Most all of the Prophets went to the school of the Prophets!
Paul who wrote 2/3rds of the NT was trained by the best of his day.
So yes God can use the foolish things of the world to confound the wise, including the foolish that are wise in their own eyes!
And of course the majority of Christianity disagrees with these novices that say “come out from among them”.
Yet the scriptures say…
“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us“: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 1 John 2:19
WJ
Thinker ………..There is not end to the trinity teachings nearly (ALL) Christradom accepte it even if they don't understand it. So to finf fellow cohearts is easily done, just turn on any Christion TV Station or raido station there everwhere, But that does not make the teaching Right many are decieved, because the recieve (NOT) the LOVE of the TRUTH. SO they simply don't question the Doctrine and GOD send them a deluding SPirti in order to believe THE LIE , as 2 Ths 2 Shows. Many called (FEW) Chosen. The many believe the LIE of the TRINITY.
IMO
gene
Quote (Gene @ Oct. 05 2009,17:51) Thinker ………..There is not end to the trinity teachings nearly (ALL) Christradom accepte it even if they don't understand it. So to finf fellow cohearts is easily done, just turn on any Christion TV Station or raido station there everwhere, But that does not make the teaching Right many are decieved, because the recieve (NOT) the LOVE of the TRUTH. SO they simply don't question the Doctrine and GOD send them a deluding SPirti in order to believe THE LIE , as 2 Ths 2 Shows. Many called (FEW) Chosen. The many believe the LIE of the TRINITY. IMO
gene
But what it does mean is that you are not of us! Christianity that is!WJ
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