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Mike
now this is power;
Expulsion
In March 1980 Franz and his wife took leave of absence from the world headquarters for health reasons and moved to Alabama, where he took up laboring work on a property owned by a fellow Witness. The following month a committee of the Governing Body raised concerns over the spreading of “wrong teachings” emanating from headquarters staff and began questioning headquarters staff on their beliefs. Staff were also questioned about comments Franz had made that may have contradicted Watch Tower doctrine.[12][13] On 8 May 1980 Franz was told that he had been implicated as an apostate.[14] He was called back to Brooklyn on 20 May for two days of questioning[15] by the Chairman's Committee. Franz claimed the discussion concerned allegations that some Witnesses were meeting privately to discuss various teachings of the Watch Tower Society that may have constituted apostasy.
On 21 May 1980 Franz was called to a Governing Body session, questioned for three hours about his Bible viewpoints and commitment to Watch Tower doctrines[2][16] and agreed to a request to resign from the Governing Body and headquarters staff. Franz refused the Watch Tower Society's offer of a monthly stipend as a member of the “Infirm Special Pioneers”.[17] The Governing Body investigation resulted in the disfellowshipping of several other headquarters staff.[18][19][20]
On 1 September 1980 the Governing Body distributed a letter to all Circuit and District overseers stating that apostates need not be promoting doctrines to be disfellowshipped. The letter stated that individuals who persisted in “believing other doctrine despite scriptural reproof” were also apostatizing and therefore warranted “appropriate judicial action”.[15][21]
On 18 March 1981 Franz's employer in Alabama submitted a letter of disassociation from Jehovah's Witnesses. A Watchtower article on 15 September 1981 announced a change of policy on disassociation, directing that those who formally withdrew from the religion were to be treated by Witnesses as a disfellowshipped wrongdoer[22] and Franz, who continued to socialize and eat with his employer, was summoned to a judicial hearing on 25 November and disfellowshipped for disobeying the edict.[2][23][24]
Franz subsequently wrote two books—Crisis of Conscience (1983) and In Search of Christian Freedom (1991)—presenting detailed accounts of his experiences as a Jehovah's Witness, a Governing Body member, and his experiences throughout various levels of the organization.Mike
here is more on dates ;Failed predictions
Watch Tower Society publications have claimed that God has used Jehovah's Witnesses (and formerly, the International Bible Students) to declare his will[318][319] and has provided advance knowledge about Armageddon and the establishment of God's kingdom.[320][321][322] Raymond Franz, who became a critic of the religion, has cited publications that claimed that God has used Jehovah's Witnesses and the International Bible Students as a modern-day prophet.[note 6] Jehovah's Witnesses' publications have made various predictions about world events they believe were prophesied in the Bible.[323][324] Failed predictions have led to the alteration or abandonment of some doctrines.[325][326] Critics highlight failed predictions that the Watch Tower Society had claimed were “beyond doubt” or “approved by God”.[327] The Watch Tower Society rejects accusations that it is a false prophet.[328] It says that unlike Old Testament prophets, its interpretations of the Bible are not inspired or infallible,[329][330][331] and that its predictions were not claimed as “the words of Jehovah.”[328] It states that some of its expectations have needed adjustment as a part of progressive revelation and of its eagerness for God's kingdom, adding that Witnesses are always ready to accept such adjustments and that it would be “foolish to take the view that expectations needing some adjustment should call into question the whole body of truth.”[332][333] George D. Chryssides has suggested that with the exception of statements about 1914, 1925 and 1975, the changing views and dates of the Jehovah's Witnesses are largely attributable to changed understandings of biblical chronology than to failed predictions.[334]they are good politicians ,see their explanation ,this is true for individuals because most of us are perpetual students ,and guided by scriptures understanding ,BUT WHEN IT COMES TO WELL ORGANIZED RELIGION CLAIMING THEY HAVE GODS SPIRIT TO GUIDE THEM AND THEN MAKE THOSE MISTAKES THAT NOT EVEN ONE APOSTLES ON HIS OWN DID NOT DO ,NOT COUNTING WHAT SCRIPTURES SAY ABOUT DOING JUST THAT .(TELLING THE RETURN OF CHRIST )
Quote I don't know, Pierre. Do YOU think he did? If not, then perhaps you should research into why the JWs believe it, and if they are wrong, PROVE it scripturally. –Mike
Quote One question at a time. PROVE to me that the JWs are going AGAINST SCRIPTURE about 1914 first. –Mike.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 12 2012,09:30) Quote (david @ Feb. 11 2012,11:35) Mike, it's hard to argue with someone when you don't know what they believe. 🙂 What do you believe?
1914, Christ returned:
1. True,
2. Not true,
3. Don't know
David,Pierre made a claim that the JWs think Jesus' second coming was in 1914. That is not what the JWs think – as you should know. I have told him that their belief is that Jesus began to rule in heaven in 1914.
And I have read their Revelation and Daniel books. I know how they come to that conclusion. But my point here is not to defend the 1914 claim itself, but to prove that Pierre can not honestly just go around making false claims about this organization, while saying the false claim he made up about them is wrong.
Now, I have told him that the JWs don't believe 1914 was Jesus' second coming. Yet he has skimmed right over that, instead of saying, “Oops, sorry”, and moved on to another claim about 1975.
I won't let him do that. He made a false claim against the JWs concerning 1914, and he needs to own up to that action.
THEN……………. AFTER WE BOTH KNOW THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT CHRIST BEGINNING TO RULE IN HEAVEN IN 1914 (and not coming to earth), he must first show what exactly it is the JWs claim before he can show them wrong.
My guess is that he doesn't even know how they've come to that conclusion in the first place. My guess is that he is riding the bandwagon.
And it is not up to ME to show what the JWs believe, because I'm not the one claiming their belief to be false. If HE wants to claim it as false, then HE needs to show what the claim even is, and scripturally show HOW it is false.
It still seems quite odd to me, Mike, that you avoided that simple question, which I numbered, so, all you had to do was write down a number.It also seems illogical to me to make someone prove to you, something that you yourself already believe.
All this makes me think you probably do believe 1914 is an accurate belief of JW's.
Correct me if I am wrong. (I don't want to start a discussion on this, I just want to know.)
Quote Pierre made a claim that the JWs think Jesus' second coming was in 1914. That is not what the JWs think – as you should know. Mike, I think that's sort of a technicality (parousia: coming/presence). I don't think that is what he was really the point being made because he also asked:
“Did Christ start to rule in heaven in 1914 Mike”?–Pierre
To which you answered:
Quote I don't know, Pierre. Do YOU think he did? If not, then perhaps you should research into why the JWs believe it, and if they are wrong, PROVE it scripturally. Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 11 2012,18:12) Mike this is 1914 ;
God's kingdom
Witness publications teach that God's kingdom is a literal government in heaven, ruled by Jesus Christ and 144,000 Christians drawn from the earth.[174] The kingdom is viewed as the means by which God will accomplish his original purpose for the earth, transforming it into a paradise without sickness or death.[175] It is said to have been the focal point of Jesus' ministry on earth[176] and established in heaven in 1914.[177] They believe 1914 marks the restoration of God's rule over earth after being halted for 2520 years since 607 BCE, the date they uniquely assign to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians.[178]this comes to the question did not God ruled before ? and if so as they say, what make it different ?? beside being that so many years have gone by???
Pierre,Revelation 12:10
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:“Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Christ.
For the accuser of our brothers,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.Did God not have a Kingdom before this? Haven't we just discussed this in Jack's thread, Pierre? Haven't you argued against Jack that Satan IS the current ruler of the world?
So answer your own question: Does that mean that God doesn't rule until Satan is disposed of?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 12 2012,21:04) Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 11 2012,18:12) Mike this is 1914 ;
God's kingdom
Witness publications teach that God's kingdom is a literal government in heaven, ruled by Jesus Christ and 144,000 Christians drawn from the earth.[174] The kingdom is viewed as the means by which God will accomplish his original purpose for the earth, transforming it into a paradise without sickness or death.[175] It is said to have been the focal point of Jesus' ministry on earth[176] and established in heaven in 1914.[177] They believe 1914 marks the restoration of God's rule over earth after being halted for 2520 years since 607 BCE, the date they uniquely assign to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians.[178]this comes to the question did not God ruled before ? and if so as they say, what make it different ?? beside being that so many years have gone by???
Pierre,Revelation 12:10
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:“Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Christ.
For the accuser of our brothers,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.Did God not have a Kingdom before this? Haven't we just discussed this in Jack's thread, Pierre? Haven't you argued against Jack that Satan IS the current ruler of the world?
So answer your own question: Does that mean that God doesn't rule until Satan is disposed of?
MikeGOD AS ALWAYS RULED,this is why things are fulfilled,and revelation 12 as been fulfilled
Many years but I do not believe that 1914 is what the JW are claiming,do you ?
Quote (david @ Feb. 11 2012,20:41) It still seems quite odd to me, Mike……………..
What seems quite odd to me, David, is that I have spent a lot of my time defending YOUR religion from prejudicial people here over the last three years or so – yet you seem like it makes good sense to try and stab ME in the back, instead of supporting me.
Perhaps JWs like you are why so many people out there don't like them.
If you want to discuss 1914 with me, then start a thread or join my discussion with Pierre. You can then offer YOUR beliefs and ask me mine. But if your goal is to take sniper shots at the hand that's trying to help YOU, then bugger off. I don't really care what you think is “odd” or “illogical” where I'm concerned.
I KNOW that Jesus has not returned yet. And not I, you, Pierre, or the JW elders know whether or not Jesus' reign in heaven began in 1914.
But that is not the point. The point is that Pierre says with certainty that the JWs MUST be wrong on this point – without showing scriptural reasons as to WHY they are wrong.
And THAT, David, is what this discussion is about. (Notice Pierre's last posts to me. Notice that he is simply posting anti-JW rhetoric that he copied from some web site instead of SCRIPTURALLY showing me why the JWs are wrong about 1914.)
THIS behavior is what I'm fighting against – whether it is against YOUR organization, the Catholics, black people, or whoever. Simple-minded generalization of any group in an attempt to berate them without proof or cause irritates me. And I will always stand up to this kind of petty, bandwagon mentality.
Now, would you be so kind as to either join the discussion about 1914, or butt out?
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 11 2012,21:11) Many years but I do not believe that 1914 is what the JW are claiming,do you ?
I don't know what they are claiming, Pierre. YOU are the one who insists they're wrong. So, show me what they're claiming and why it is scripturally wrong.Quote What seems quite odd to me, David, is that I have spent a lot of my time defending YOUR religion from prejudicial people here over the last three years or so – yet you seem like it makes good sense to try and stab ME in the back, instead of supporting me. –Mike
Mike, you are doing some nasty psychological things here.
Anyway, do you not think it's odd that you can't answer a question that would take you 5 seconds? For some reason, it makes more sense to you to spend a lot of time responding to me, without answering my question.
As for joining in your discussion with Pierre, you will notice that I have been involved in this discussion for quite a while. I just wanted to start with the obvious question of: WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE?
Yet, you refuse to respond, but are now, in fact, trying to use intimidation or fear to get me to back down.
Quote And THAT, David, is what this discussion is about. (Notice Pierre's last posts to me. Notice that he is simply posting anti-JW rhetoric that he copied from some web site instead of SCRIPTURALLY showing me why the JWs are wrong about 1914.) I commend you for taking the high road and holding Pierre accountable. I was simply wanting a straightforward answer to a simple question from you.
Quote I KNOW that Jesus has not returned yet. And not I, you, Pierre, or the JW elders know whether or not Jesus' reign in heaven began in 1914. An answer!
If you know this, then you must know it scripturally, for that is what you demand from others.
And if you know it to be true, scripturally, then I still fail to see the point in why you want it from Pierre.
Mike, I wasn't stabbing you in the back. I was looking for what I thought was a simple answer to a simple question. I wasn't saying you were wrong or right, just wanting to know what you thought.
You seem to OVER REACT.
Quote (david @ Feb. 11 2012,21:31) I commend you for taking the high road and holding Pierre accountable. I was simply wanting a straightforward answer to a simple question from you.
FINALLY! Something that you should have said to me from the start – instead of attacking me for defending your organization.Listen carefully, David: I don't want to discuss 1914. I don't want to discuss the prophsies in Revelation. I find those discussions to be boring and pointless, because every generation of man thinks they were written exclusively for their own time period.
Over a year ago, Pierre even faxed me his timeline and info regarding the beast of the earth, the beast of the sea, etc. I politely told him that I'm just not interested in the guessing game of trying to pinpoint years and nations and religious groups involved in those prophesies.
So……………ONCE AGAIN……….. I'm not on this thread to defend the JWs claim about 1914. I'm on this thread to keep the petty nay-sayers honest – nothing more.
If they want to claim the JWs are wrong about this or wrong about that, then they should be able to prove WHY they are wrong. It is not for me to prove they are right, because I'm not the one CLAIMING they are right. But if THEY want to claim with certainty that they are wrong, I want to see their reasons.
Otherwise, it is nothing but a slam fest for the sake of slamming other servants of God.
Can you understand this now? So, IF Pierre ever gets around to showing why 1914 COULDN'T POSSIBLY be the year in which Jesus began ruling in heaven, then I might delve back into the Daniel and Revelation books from the JWs, and take a closer look at what scriptures led them to their conclusions. At that point, I might agree with Pierre, or I might agree with the JWs. Or I might just say “I don't know”.
But the point is that I wouldn't have allowed him (or the other hate mongerers here) to just spout baseless crap about the JWs without making them put their money where their mouths are.
Thank your for the commendation. Now if you could only give me the “Oops, sorry” in the other thread, for saying you could “make things awkward” for me before reading my prior post to Wakeup, then I think we might be back to an even keel.
Good day to you
Quote FINALLY! Something that you should have said to me from the start – instead of attacking me If asking a simple question is attacking, then Jesus attacked a lot of people.
Quote Listen carefully, David: I don't want to discuss 1914. I believe I conveyed the same thought. I just wanted to know what you thought about it, in a one word answer.
Quote It is not for me to prove they are right, because I'm not the one CLAIMING they are right. I thought you did say they were right about many things, so I simply wanted to know where you stood on this one, in a one word answer.
Quote Can you understand this now? A ONE WORD ANSWER WOULD HAVE MADE ME UNDERSTAND WHAT I WAS WONDERING ABOUT. I didn't want to discuss 1914 either, as I've said before in this thread.
I retract the “make things awkward” statement.
Quote (david @ Feb. 12 2012,15:45) Quote FINALLY! Something that you should have said to me from the start – instead of attacking me If asking a simple question is attacking, then Jesus attacked a lot of people.
Hi David, agreed!Hey wait a minute: then why do you believe the questions
that I ask you about your organization to be attacks;
is this not a bit hypocritical on your part, David?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgMike
Let's make it clear and I have say this over ,to me the JW areno less no more than any false organized religion,this is because they have the profil not of Chist but of a world class business organization ,
Also to keep progressing in front of their own proselites they have to come up with new stuf,if they want to bring new members in,many adepts are not well informed of the passed .
Of that organization not like Paul who was proud in the work he did in Christ by always telling the truth and interpreting the word with integrity scriptures say that the saint were no liars ,no lies were found in them.this is the character of the true Gods people,I am well aware that you know more about the JW than you want to say,but you have access to most of what they preach any way,but this is not for me to push.
I also want to say that Satan did lie once ,and he was called a liar,and he was a high placed angel ,
It is not the position that some one occupied that make him more believable, or truthfull to any way some one who lies about God scriptures his a liar,or a deceiver ,well
It is my bed time so will look for your reply in a few hoursQuote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 12 2012,04:01) Are you not a witness to God also, Wakeup? And what they do is show where many false religions are teaching unscriptural things, such as the Trinity Doctrine. Don't you also try to do the same, Wakeup? Quote Can you answer me this Mike. how can the very elect elders make five wrong importend predictions?
Yes Wakeup. Men, including you and me, make mistakes sometimes. If we are smart, we will learn from those mistakes and not do it anymore.They still have their own understanding of Daniel and Revelation (as do most people), but they have learned not to make predictions anymore.
Now, do you have a question as to what they teach as an organization? Can you point us to something they teach that is against the scriptures? If not, then hush.
Mike b.you said they have learned not to make predictions anymore.
What does this tell you?
That they are in error in the past;144000 elders in error.
Does the holy spirit make errors? For they claim to be in the Holy spirit.This only makes them liars.How can you have any confidence, in the rest of their teachings??
How can they claim to be the true witnesses,if they lie after lies.They have made the 1914 prediction; they should retract that also,and dont make anymore predictions,for the Holyspirit is not in them.Their teachings are full of holes.
Why are you trying to make my post look like a hate mongering post? Is this your strategy,to defend them?
you have their tactics in you.You ask me what they teach; I know what they teach,and you should know too, so why ask me.Some in my fam.are jw.
The whole world knows they are false prophets,exept the jws.
They think they only are Gods people. (which god, is the question)wakeup.
Wakeup,
When you get to the part where you're going to show me something they teach that is not scriptural, let me know, okay?
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 12 2012,00:08) Mike Let's make it clear and I have say this over ,to me the JW areno less no more than any false organized religion,this is because they have the profil not of Chist but of a world class business organization ,
Oh, you mean like Jesus and his disciples, who took donations and carried a money bag around with them? You mean like when Jesus said to take nothing because a worker deserves his wages?Pierre, my last post to Wakeup applies also to you.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 13 2012,07:54) Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 12 2012,00:08) Mike Let's make it clear and I have say this over ,to me the JW areno less no more than any false organized religion,this is because they have the profil not of Chist but of a world class business organization ,
Oh, you mean like Jesus and his disciples, who took donations and carried a money bag around with them? You mean like when Jesus said to take nothing because a worker deserves his wages?Pierre, my last post to Wakeup applies also to you.
Mikeyou use bad analogy ,to discredit what I say,so now answer me to this ;were in scriptures does it calls for to make a men made world wide organization to help to distribute that organization publication in Gods name
??so that ;now the power levels are changed to ;first God second Christ third the organization ,last the believers.
upward would be in reverse; so again were are the scriptures for this
?
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