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Quote But Keith and SF were implying that Titus 2:13 taught that Jesus was God Almighty Himself, and I'm sure you don't think it means Jesus is the only UNbegotten God, do you?
When did I imply this? Since im super late in finding this thread, can you tell me from what thread did i imply this? It must have been that because it seems you directed the arguement towards me since you “bumped” me.Titus 2
10Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
This whole scripture is in reference to Jesus Christ our Lord.
The Subject of these verses are applied to Jesus christ starting from verse 10.
according to Mike, God has not appeared to men, and God has never been seen.
verse 11: implies that he has appeared to all men.
It further emphasizes on verse 12: how to live “godly” which was “taught” by this appearance.Verse 13 Strictly implies that there will be a great APPEARING in which we long for and hope for, Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
The bible doesnt cliam that God will Appear (according to Mike's theology of God being a seperate person from Jesus.)verse 14: Clearly continues speaking of the acts and promises of Jesus Christ, who is the subject of the matter because:
> Jesus died (gave himself up for us)
> Jesus redeemed us from sin as promised (might redeem us)
> Jesus purifies us (and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.)So in the end since the Verse is cristosentric, its safe to conclude that everything in this verse refers to Jesus and Jesus alone as the “great God” and “Saviour”. Period
1. (If you believe that God is a seperate person) God cannot appear physically for he is spirit and invisible.
2. God has not promised to appear in the New Testament
3. the Son of God is promised to appear clearly throughout the NT.
4. The Context and Pretext of verse 13 speaks of the acts of Christ.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 26 2010,06:53) Do you remember Isaiah 9:6? THE Almighty God Jehovah had already foretold 700 years before Jesus came as flesh that he would be called “mighty god”. So, even if Paul WAS calling Jesus “our great god and savior”, then he would have only been fulfilling the prophecy spoken by Jehovah through Isaiah. But don't forget that this same Jehovah later went on to clarify that this “mighty god” that Isaiah prophesied about was someone OTHER THAN and LESSOR TO Himself. (Micah 5:4, Ezekiel 34:24, Jeremiah 30:9)
Any way you slice it, Titus 2:13 is NOT a “Jesus is God” proof text.
peace and love,
mike
Mike,
Wouldnt the above in bold be a Conjecture in Paul's Intentions?
There is no other evidence nor support within the same chapter of Titus to suggest that Paul's statement was in reference to prophecy in Isaiah 9:6.And if we were to put paul under a psycho-analysis based on what he has written: Than I would say that would be false, because when Paul refers to the OT, he always qoutes it, as he did commonly in the book of Romans.
Quote (shimmer @ Dec. 20 2010,00:34) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 20 2010,09:05) About the cross, oh my, don't get me going…I get so irritated at those who criticize the cross as a symbol of Christianity…and those that claim that it was a stake and not a cross beam, as if that really matters. Imagine the logistics of hanging someone on a stake…it would have to be longer for the arms to go overhead and also to be sunk deeper in the ground to hold it steady. If it were cross shaped, then the tree log wouldn't have to be so long and the hole to sink it in wouldn't have to be so deep because the balance would have been easier to achieve. Obviously, I see the cross as an altar of the most precious sacrifice, not as some torture stake. God has had man make elaborate altars in the OT and so, an altar is not a symbol of offense to Him, nor was He having men make an altar with concern that it would become a graven image or idol that some would worship. The Christian cross is merely a memorial of the sacrifice that won the victory over death. See there…you got me going 
I can remember I made a post once saying it was wrong to wear a cross. But I brought a bracelet a couple of weeks ago, from the Christian bookshop. It's a cross and I wear it happily. It shows in a way… well to me… that I am a Christian.Sorry, carry on kathi=)
Good Karmarie,
I'm glad for you. Wear it with thankfulnessQuote (SimplyForgiven @ Dec. 20 2010,02:41) Titus 2
10Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
This whole scripture is in reference to Jesus Christ our Lord.
The Subject of these verses are applied to Jesus christ starting from verse 10.
according to Mike, God has not appeared to men, and God has never been seen.
verse 11: implies that he has appeared to all men.
It further emphasizes on verse 12: how to live “godly” which was “taught” by this appearance.
Hi DennisonExactly.
Not to mention the Greek word for “appearing” (Strong's G2015 – epiphaneia) is found 6 times in the NT all used by Paul and in every case he is speaking of Jesus appearing.
That coupled with the GSR is proof that Jesus was Paul's Great God and Savour in whom was the “Blessed Hope” that Jesus would return again.
Funny how Mike says that the Father has not appeared to man yet here he claims the Father will appear to man.
WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 20 2010,11:57) I think that it is obvious that Paul understands that there is a Father and a Son, he has clearly made a distinction that there are two and that the Son is not the Father and the Father is not the Son
This part of what you said is clearly evident from scripture, Kathi. The “deity” part, not so much.But here's the clincher: As you have just stated, Paul knows that the Son is NOT the Father. Now, which one of those two beings did Paul say was our GOD? Only one of them, Kathi. We have but ONE GOD, THE FATHER.
While you're looking up scriptures where Paul called Jesus “God”, take notice of all the many times he refers to “God”…………AND………….”Jesus”. Not “THE FATHER” as someone other than “JESUS”. But GOD as SOMEONE OTHER THAN Jesus.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (SimplyForgiven @ Dec. 20 2010,17:03) Lets get something straight, are you stating that you (Mike) believe that Jesus is a God, but not THE God. correct yes or no?
Are you kidding me D? I've only posted this about 1000 times on this site. Don't you remember KJ getting all bent out of shape because I said “Jesus is a god in the same sense that Satan is”?And just to be clear, that “sense” is that he is a “mighty one” who is NOT THE ALMIGHTY ONE. Just like Satan is a “mighty one” who is NOT THE ALMIGHTY ONE.
John 1:18 calls Jesus the “only begotten god”, D. And John 1:1 says Jesus is “a god”. So of course Jesus is a god, or “mighty one”. After all, he's the second most powerful being in existence, right?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (SimplyForgiven @ Dec. 20 2010,17:06) Quote But Keith and SF were implying that Titus 2:13 taught that Jesus was God Almighty Himself, and I'm sure you don't think it means Jesus is the only UNbegotten God, do you?
When did I imply this? Since im super late in finding this thread, can you tell me from what thread did i imply this? It must have been that because it seems you directed the arguement towards me since you “bumped” me.
Hey D,I honestly can't remember what you said that prompted me to start this thread, but I'm thinking you must have quoted this scripture as some kind of proof that Jesus is God.
Look at the date I posted it. Maybe you can backtrack the many conversations we were having back then.
If I have misspoken, and you DON'T think Jesus is God Almighty, then I apologize and would like you to clear the air about that right now.
Because I've always understood you to think Jesus was THE GOD along with the Father.peace and love,
mikeQuote (SimplyForgiven @ Dec. 20 2010,18:41)
according to Mike, God has not appeared to men, and God has never been seen.
verse 11: implies that he has appeared to all men.
Verse 11 says God's GRACE has appeared to all men. (In the form of Jesus Christ, of course.)Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Dec. 20 2010,18:41)
The bible doesnt cliam that God will Appear (according to Mike's theology of God being a seperate person from Jesus.)
Sure it does. Many times and in many different books.Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Dec. 20 2010,18:41)
1. (If you believe that God is a seperate person) God cannot appear physically for he is spirit and invisible.
2. God has not promised to appear in the New Testament
3. the Son of God is promised to appear clearly throughout the NT.
4. The Context and Pretext of verse 13 speaks of the acts of Christ.
1. You are correct, but this scripture doesn't say anything about men seeing God Himself.
2. Hebrews 10:37, Revelation 22:12. And why are you pulling a WJ here? Why must we limit the scriptures that say YHVH is coming to the NT only?
3. Correct.
4. So do many scriptures that begin with “I thank the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”. So what's your point? Many, many scriptures mix the love and actions of God with the love and actions of Christ, D.mike
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Dec. 20 2010,18:55) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 26 2010,06:53) Do you remember Isaiah 9:6? THE Almighty God Jehovah had already foretold 700 years before Jesus came as flesh that he would be called “mighty god”. So, even if Paul WAS calling Jesus “our great god and savior”, then he would have only been fulfilling the prophecy spoken by Jehovah through Isaiah. But don't forget that this same Jehovah later went on to clarify that this “mighty god” that Isaiah prophesied about was someone OTHER THAN and LESSOR TO Himself. (Micah 5:4, Ezekiel 34:24, Jeremiah 30:9)
Any way you slice it, Titus 2:13 is NOT a “Jesus is God” proof text.
peace and love,
mike
Mike,
Wouldnt the above in bold be a Conjecture in Paul's Intentions?
There is no other evidence nor support within the same chapter of Titus to suggest that Paul's statement was in reference to prophecy in Isaiah 9:6.And if we were to put paul under a psycho-analysis based on what he has written: Than I would say that would be false, because when Paul refers to the OT, he always qoutes it, as he did commonly in the book of Romans.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Dec. 20 2010,18:55)
Mike,
Wouldnt the above in bold be a Conjecture in Paul's Intentions?
Not at all, D. No matter what the intentions of Paul, it would have fulfilled a Biblical prophecy. I was not saying that Paul would have said it ONLY TO fulfill that prophecy.Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Dec. 20 2010,18:55)
And if we were to put paul under a psycho-analysis based on what he has written: Than I would say that would be false,
Would you like to do that D? I would love to. I even tried it with Keith a while back. I wanted to go through each of the NT writer's books and get a picture of whether they thought Jesus was God, or someone other than God. I had listed a few scriptures already when Keith bailed from the debate – as so often happens with him.Let's start with Romans, and go through every letter that Paul wrote, okay? I'll post the scriptures that show Jesus as someone other than the being Paul calls our “ONE God, the Father”, and you list the scriptures in which you think Paul is saying that Jesus IS God, okay?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 21 2010,07:32) Funny how Mike says that the Father has not appeared to man yet here he claims the Father will appear to man. Revelation 21 NIV
3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.Revelation 22 NIV
4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.Remember Keith, the scriptures say no man HAS ever seen God. It doesn't say no man WILL ever see God, right?
peace and love,
mikeListen guys, these are the facts as attested to by the 50+ Trinitaian scholars who translated the CEV, and the Greek words themselves:
Titus 2:13 COULD have Paul calling Jesus “our great god”, or the scripture COULD have Paul talking about “our great God…….AND……….our Savior Jesus Christ”.
Add in the fact that we KNOW Jesus would be called “mighty god”, and no matter which translation you use, this scripture is ABSOLUTELY ambiguous in the “Jesus is God Almighty” department, and cannot in any good conscience be used as a “proof text”. Fair enough?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 20 2010,20:34) Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 20 2010,11:57) I think that it is obvious that Paul understands that there is a Father and a Son, he has clearly made a distinction that there are two and that the Son is not the Father and the Father is not the Son
This part of what you said is clearly evident from scripture, Kathi. The “deity” part, not so much.But here's the clincher: As you have just stated, Paul knows that the Son is NOT the Father. Now, which one of those two beings did Paul say was our GOD? Only one of them, Kathi. We have but ONE GOD, THE FATHER.
While you're looking up scriptures where Paul called Jesus “God”, take notice of all the many times he refers to “God”…………AND………….”Jesus”. Not “THE FATHER” as someone other than “JESUS”. But GOD as SOMEONE OTHER THAN Jesus.
peace and love,
mike
Mike,
The deity of Christ is not as clear as you would like it and the Spirit will lead you into that truth because it is the Spirit that testifies of the Son. For the verses that seem ambiguous to you can be cleared up by the response and writings of the early church. You have said that you agree with the Nicene Creed which states that the Son is 'very God of very God' and you have said that Christ is your Lord so therefore He who is your Lord is also your very God of very God.When you tell us that the Son is “the mighty one” then that puts Him in a group of many. When you say that He is the only begotten God, that distinguishes Him from the many gods. I think that you would be better off to clarify Him as the only begotten God/god instead of clarifying Him as 'a mighty one.' Even the NWT translates 'theos' in John 1:1 and John 1:18 as god and not mighty one. So, I think you are perfectly good to clarify the Son as the only begotten god/God which sets Him apart from the unbegotten God. That was how the early church writers often distinguished the two. IMO
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 21 2010,06:39) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Dec. 20 2010,17:03) Lets get something straight, are you stating that you (Mike) believe that Jesus is a God, but not THE God. correct yes or no?
Are you kidding me D? I've only posted this about 1000 times on this site. Don't you remember KJ getting all bent out of shape because I said “Jesus is a god in the same sense that Satan is”?And just to be clear, that “sense” is that he is a “mighty one” who is NOT THE ALMIGHTY ONE. Just like Satan is a “mighty one” who is NOT THE ALMIGHTY ONE.
John 1:18 calls Jesus the “only begotten god”, D. And John 1:1 says Jesus is “a god”. So of course Jesus is a god, or “mighty one”. After all, he's the second most powerful being in existence, right?
peace and love,
mike
So Jesus is a God but not the God??
Its a simple, direct answer MIke, thats all im looking for.What difference does your belief have with Greek mythology that believes in many gods, and one supreme God such as Zues.
I believe that the scriptures express, that there is only One God.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 21 2010,06:45) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Dec. 20 2010,17:06) Quote But Keith and SF were implying that Titus 2:13 taught that Jesus was God Almighty Himself, and I'm sure you don't think it means Jesus is the only UNbegotten God, do you?
When did I imply this? Since im super late in finding this thread, can you tell me from what thread did i imply this? It must have been that because it seems you directed the arguement towards me since you “bumped” me.
Hey D,I honestly can't remember what you said that prompted me to start this thread, but I'm thinking you must have quoted this scripture as some kind of proof that Jesus is God.
Look at the date I posted it. Maybe you can backtrack the many conversations we were having back then.
If I have misspoken, and you DON'T think Jesus is God Almighty, then I apologize and would like you to clear the air about that right now.
Because I've always understood you to think Jesus was THE GOD along with the Father.peace and love,
mike
Its very clear that i believe Jesus is God.What I dont get, or dont remember is the “why” you started this thread, maybe i had more to what i said before.
And I dont believe Jesus is God “along” or “beside” or “coequal” with the Father.
Jesus is God, the Father is in HIm, as he is in the FAther, they are the same person, there isnt a time they were ever seperated.Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 21 2010,07:08) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Dec. 20 2010,18:41)
The bible doesnt cliam that God will Appear (according to Mike's theology of God being a seperate person from Jesus.)
Sure it does. Many times and in many different books.Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Dec. 20 2010,18:41)
1. (If you believe that God is a seperate person) God cannot appear physically for he is spirit and invisible.
2. God has not promised to appear in the New Testament
3. the Son of God is promised to appear clearly throughout the NT.
4. The Context and Pretext of verse 13 speaks of the acts of Christ.
1. You are correct, but this scripture doesn't say anything about men seeing God Himself.
2. Hebrews 10:37, Revelation 22:12. And why are you pulling a WJ here? Why must we limit the scriptures that say YHVH is coming to the NT only?
3. Correct.
4. So do many scriptures that begin with “I thank the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”. So what's your point? Many, many scriptures mix the love and actions of God with the love and actions of Christ, D.mike
So you believe that the bible claims that God will appear many times in different books, Please explain this to me.1. They did see Him as Jesus. and Jesus claims that no one has ever seen the light but Himself because he dwells in the Light. Scriptures states that No man has ever seen God himself, but the Son has.
You cant make claims and theologies and doctrine based on what scriptures “doesnt say”. I thought francis already correted you on this in the debate about creeds?2. I didnt Limit God in anyway, its a fact that the NT doesnt state that God will return or does it?
heb10:37For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry-
Rev 22:12both of these scripture are about Jesus and his promise to return. and You know very welll that we discussed rev 22:12 in depth. even John expcted for JESUS to return.
26He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
This is a bogus answer mike.4. So God gave himself up according to your theolgoy? did he also redeem the people? did he cast away their sin?
I thought Jesus is the one who “did” all these things literally?And so many scriptures always includes Lord Jesus and the Father always togethor. and if their actions are used interchangably than that can only mean they come from the same person.
Mike,
In the End its clear that Titus 2:13 speaks of Christ solely, unless you want to ADD what scripture doesnt say, which is a fallacy.Quote (Lightenup @ Dec. 21 2010,15:56) When you say that He is the only begotten God, that distinguishes Him from the many gods.
Very well then, Kathi. But I will save the capital G for God Most High.And just as “only begotten god” distinguishes Jesus from all other gods – as well he should be – “God Almighty” would not only distinguish Jehovah from all other gods as well, but also from “the only begotten god”. Agreed?
One of them is unbegotten and Almighty, the other is begotten and mighty. But they are TWO, Kathi. One is not a part of the being of the other.
mike
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Dec. 21 2010,18:44) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 21 2010,06:45) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Dec. 20 2010,17:06) Quote But Keith and SF were implying that Titus 2:13 taught that Jesus was God Almighty Himself, and I'm sure you don't think it means Jesus is the only UNbegotten God, do you?
When did I imply this? Since im super late in finding this thread, can you tell me from what thread did i imply this? It must have been that because it seems you directed the arguement towards me since you “bumped” me.
Hey D,I honestly can't remember what you said that prompted me to start this thread, but I'm thinking you must have quoted this scripture as some kind of proof that Jesus is God.
Look at the date I posted it. Maybe you can backtrack the many conversations we were having back then.
If I have misspoken, and you DON'T think Jesus is God Almighty, then I apologize and would like you to clear the air about that right now.
Because I've always understood you to think Jesus was THE GOD along with the Father.peace and love,
mike
Its very clear that i believe Jesus is God.What I dont get, or dont remember is the “why” you started this thread, maybe i had more to what i said before.
And I dont believe Jesus is God “along” or “beside” or “coequal” with the Father.
Jesus is God, the Father is in HIm, as he is in the FAther, they are the same person, there isnt a time they were ever seperated.
Hi SF,John 17:21 That they all may be one(in spirit); as thou, Father(HolySpirit), art in me(John 1:33-34),
and I in thee(1Pt.1:11), that they also may be one in us(John 14:23): that the world may believe that thou
hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may
know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.When God's spirit becomes resident in us (Eph4:4-6),
does that mean we also (according to SF) become God (John 1:33-34)?Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Dec. 22 2010,05:29) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Dec. 21 2010,18:44) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Dec. 21 2010,06:45) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Dec. 20 2010,17:06) Quote But Keith and SF were implying that Titus 2:13 taught that Jesus was God Almighty Himself, and I'm sure you don't think it means Jesus is the only UNbegotten God, do you?
When did I imply this? Since im super late in finding this thread, can you tell me from what thread did i imply this? It must have been that because it seems you directed the arguement towards me since you “bumped” me.
Hey D,I honestly can't remember what you said that prompted me to start this thread, but I'm thinking you must have quoted this scripture as some kind of proof that Jesus is God.
Look at the date I posted it. Maybe you can backtrack the many conversations we were having back then.
If I have misspoken, and you DON'T think Jesus is God Almighty, then I apologize and would like you to clear the air about that right now.
Because I've always understood you to think Jesus was THE GOD along with the Father.peace and love,
mike
Its very clear that i believe Jesus is God.What I dont get, or dont remember is the “why” you started this thread, maybe i had more to what i said before.
And I dont believe Jesus is God “along” or “beside” or “coequal” with the Father.
Jesus is God, the Father is in HIm, as he is in the FAther, they are the same person, there isnt a time they were ever seperated.
Hi SF,John 17:21 That they all may be one(in spirit); as thou, Father(HolySpirit), art in me(John 1:33-34),
and I in thee(1Pt.1:11), that they also may be one in us(John 14:23): that the world may believe that thou
hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may
know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.When God's spirit becomes resident in us (Eph4:4-6),
does that mean we also (according to SF) become God (John 1:33-34)?Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed J
WHO IS TALKING TO YOU?
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