- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (Lightenup @ June 26 2011,18:53) Mike,
Does the Father save us apart from the Son?Quote I await your explanation as to why Jesus is many times distinguished as someone OTHER THAN and LESSOR TO “the only true God” and our “one God”. I have already been through this with you Mike.
Kathi
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.He who makes is one, and he through whom the thing was made is another. – Tertullian
Kathi, all things came FROM our “ONE God”. Paul calls our ONE God “the Father”. Do you agree with Paul? YES or NO?
Mike,
Paul calls them both deity in that verse…both theos and kurios are words that are often used to apply to deity and in this verse that is the case. I think that is what Paul is saying.Kathi, all things came FROM our “ONE God”. Paul calls our ONE God “the Father”. Do you agree with Paul? YES or NO?
Mike,
You question is misleading because you are acting like one part of the sentence that Paul says is the only part. When you use the complete thought of Paul's which includes the one Lord part, then I will answer your question.Good night and sweet dreams Mike,
KathiQuote No scripture says that Jesus is the Father, as in His Father but Jesus is the one who gives eternal life and in that sense is a Father. So you say that “no scripture says that Jesus is the Father.” (We agree that no scripture says he is “the” Father, as in “the” heavenly father who is repeatedly called the Father, yet there is Is 9:6, where Jesus is prophetically called everlasting Father.)
Yet, Jehovah is called the Father many many many times.
Jesus is called the “son” many many many times.THAT is the relationship.
One is the Father. One is the Son. Both have names. One is called Jehovah (YHWH) about 7000 times. The other is called Jesus many times.
It seems YOUR definition of “father” is “one who gives eternal life.”
Quote Jesus is the one who gives eternal life and in that sense is a Father. You are right that he can be called Father, and is that one time, but my guess is that Jehovah is specifically called Father hundreds of times, and when we refer to “the” Father, or “the” God of the Bible, it is the one who is specifically called “Father” those hundreds of times.
Do you have a specific verse in Gen 18?
David,
Gen 18 mentions Jehovah many times. They are all referring to one of the three that appeared walking towards Abraham and eating with him, etc. That Jehovah is the Son and not the Father.David,
There are many senses in which one can be called a father, not just one who gives eternal life.Quote (Lightenup @ June 27 2011,09:21) t8, Quote Even Jesus is a son of the Most High except that he is the only begotten and firstborn. A big exception there t8. A difference between deity and non deity.
God is a 'Him' on one side of the equation but on the other side of the equation, the Father is a mighty God, the Son is a mighty God, and with their Spirit they make the Father the Almighty God. He always was the Almighty God and always had a Son. As I see it.
Hi Gordon.We will partake of divine nature and our lowly bodies will be transformed into a body like his. In addition to that, he will call us brothers/brethren.
What he is, we will become.
If Jesus is part of your understanding of God, then get ready to add the redeemed into this God too. This is the next logical step to your current understanding.
Quote (david @ June 27 2011,10:47) That's why we have names. If I refer to you as Gordon, chances are you won't respond to me.
You never know.I tried it out in my previous post.
t8, that gun makes me….nervous. Why don't you just put it down. Lower the gun….slowly. That's it. Put it on the ground. Now back away. Slowly.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 27 2011,14:54) David,
Gen 18 mentions Jehovah many times. They are all referring to one of the three that appeared walking towards Abraham and eating with him, etc. That Jehovah is the Son and not the Father.
We are told that 3 “men” visited Abraham.“At this point the men [2 of them actually] turned from there and got on their way to Sodom; but as for Jehovah, he was still standing before Abraham.”
How was Jehovah standing before Abraham, now that the men, the angels, had left?
You note at the beginning of the next chapter that it says: “Now the two angels arrived at Sodom by evening.”
So only two angels left the presence of Abraham and went to Sodom, not three. The logical answer, then, must be that one angel remained behind, standing before Abraham, and this angel represented Jehovah. Jehovah’s angelic representative had not yet withdrawn and disappeared from Abraham’s presence but was still standing before him and was able to be viewed by Abraham.
There are other places in the Bible that are much more clear and make it obvious that despite at first glance seeming like it is speaking of Jehovah, it is actually speaking of Jehovah's representative, an angel.
(We are quite off topic.)
David,
Quote “At this point the men [2 of them actually] turned from there and got on their way to Sodom; but as for Jehovah, he was still standing before Abraham.”
The third 'man,' who we know was not a man in reality but only in appearance, was Jehovah…the Son of God. The Father and Son both share the name 'Jehovah.' They are both deity. The Son would naturally represent His Father…He is the Word of God and is the wisdom and power of God. In other places in the Bible, the Son is called the 'angel of the Lord' but not as a created angel. The Son was not created, He was begotten at one point from within the Father. He was always within the Father before that.
And yes, we are off topic. So if you want to continue on this, then I will make a new topic for Jehovah, the Son.Hi All
It is amzing to me all the chatter still about Jesus being “a savior” by proxy when it is clear that Jesus is “The Savior” to those that believe and not just “a savior”.
The argument about us having more than one “Savior” is contrary to the scriptures.
It is real simple, Jesus is God and Savior to all the creation because Jesus is the “source” of all things and all things “COME FROM JESUS OWN HANDS”!
Neither t8, Mike or David have answered my points in the OP or my points to David. So I will repost my response to David and ask that t8, Mike and David answer my big bolded question.
t8, Mike and David have with their own words admitted that Jesus is “theos/god” and “savior” but then they play these word games with “theos/god” and “savior” by calling Jesus “a theos/god” and “a savior” yet the NT declares Jesus to be “the theos/god” and “the theos/savior”.
So contextually Jesus is “the theos/god” and “the savior” because of what I had mentioned in my opening concerning Titus 2:13, 14 and in the “Anti-Jesus is God fallacies” thread.
The scriptures tell us “Jesus has all authority and Power” (Math 28:18) and that “Jesus upholds all things by the word of his power” (Heb 1:3) and that “by him (Jesus) all things consist”, (Col 1:17) and that “all things come to us from Jesus hands” (John 13:3 & John 16:15).
So once again, if they deny Jesus as the source of all that we have including being “The Saviour” to us then they are denying 150 + scriptures Here…
However I doubt they will answer these points but instead will continue with their false teachings concerning who and what Jesus is.
Quote (david @ June 24 2011,22:54) Repeatedly the Scriptures refer to God as Savior. At Isaiah 43:11 God even says: “Besides me there is no savior.”
Since Jesus is also referred to as Savior, are God and Jesus the same? Not at all.
Titus 1:3, 4 speaks of “God our Savior,” and then of both “God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.” So, both are saviors.
Jude 25 shows theRepeatedly the Scriptures refer to God as Savior.
At Isaiah 43:11 God even says: “Besides me there is no savior.”
Since Jesus is also referred to as Savior, are God and Jesus the same? Not at all.
t8, Mike and DavidThen you are making Paul out to be a liar when he says…
while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior”, Jesus Christ, “WHO GAVE HIMSELF“ for us, that ”THAT HE” might redeem us from all iniquity, and ”purify UNTO HIMSELF” a peculiar people, zealous of good works”. Tit 2:13, 14
There is no mention of the Father here…words like “WHO GAVE HIMSELF“, ”That HE” might redeem us from all iniquity, and ”purify UNTO HIMSELF clearly contradicts your agency claim.
Quote (david @ June 24 2011,22:54) Titus 1:3, 4 speaks of “God our Savior,” and then of both “God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.” So, both are saviors.
So then you have 2 saviors! The NT scriptures do not teach that we have more than “one savior”. Can you have the Father as savior without Jesus? Can you have the Father and Jesus as savior without the Holy Spirit? No because they are ‘One”.Quote (david @ June 24 2011,22:54) Jude 25 shows the relationship, saying: “God, our Savior THROUGH Jesus Christ our Lord.”
(See also Acts 13:23.)
Well t8, Mike and David does that means that because the Father is “the savior” through Jesus that Jesus is not “The Savior? Yes the scriptures do make a distinction between the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.But the scriptures never say “They are our saviors or they are our theos/gods”, do they?
Paul makes a distinction between the Father and Jesus to head off Sabellianism but not as a means of denying that Jesus is not God or our Savior. The argument that because all things are through Jesus means that he is not God or that means we have more than one theos/god or more than one savior contradicts the scriptures and is a red herring because if all things are coming through someone then they are coming from that someone they are coming through!
All things are also “through” God the Father…
For from him and ”through him” and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen. Rom 11:36
Does that mean the Father is not God? Of course not! I can say that Jesus is my savior through the Father, but I can likewise say that the Father is my savior through Jesus.
The rest of your post is Old Testament examples of agents of salvation but none of them were the source of our salvation or eternal life, nor did they have any power of their own as Paul clearly claims Jesus has!
t8, Mike and David, the scriptures tell us “Jesus has all authority and Power” (Math 28:18) and that “Jesus upholds all things by the word of his power” (Heb 1:3) and that “by him (Jesus) all things consist”, (Col 1:17) and that “all things come to us from Jesus hands” (John 13:3 & John 16:15).
Tell me t8, Mike and David, does everything come to you from Jesus own hands or not?
WJ
Hi WJ
(117=)יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) is “The Savior”(=117)
Jesus’ authentic Name [יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă has a direct connection to GOD’s name [יה]
in that YÄ is the first part of Jesus’ “REAL” name. GOD’s name is not vocalized
in the English translation of the name Jesus and therefore misses the precise exactness
and direct authentic connection to God’s Hebrew name [יה] YÄ. Jesus’ Name in Hebrew
יהשוע means: (“YÄ is salvation” [יה]+[ישע]=[יהשוע]) the salvation of [GOD the Father=117].
[יהשוע] “Jesus” REAL name authentically establishes [יהוה] “JEHOVAH” as the highest Name. (Psalm 83:18)(Phil. 2:9,11: Wherefore [Holy Spirit] has highly exalted [Jesus] giving Him a name
which is above every name, to the glory of [GOD The Father=117].) Neither is there salvation
in any other name: for there is no other name given among men (יהשוע), whereby we must be
saved. (Acts 4:12) People speaking fluent Hebrew know that in essence, [יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă
means: “YÄ is Savior”. The Name of [GOD=26] is [יהוה=26] spoken as [YÄ=26]; and “YÄ-hä-vā”!“The Savior”=117 is “GOD The Father”=117, (117=”יהוה האלהים” YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL- ō-Hêêm)!
And He is Savior to all who walk the ground! “JEHOVAH GOD”; and there is ‘NO’ other! (Isaiah 43:11)Witnessing to the world in behalf of… (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgCan you show me where the scriptures teach there is more than “ONE Savior”? Did the Apostles ever say “OUR Saviors”?
WJ
Tell me Ed, does everything come to you from Jesus own hands or not?
If they do then that means he is “The Owner” and the source!
WJ
For all the “Anti-Jesus is the savior” crowd…
Read it carefully!
while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior”, Jesus Christ, “WHO GAVE HIMSELF“ for us, that ”THAT HE” might redeem us from all iniquity, and ”purify UNTO HIMSELF a peculiar people, zealous of good works”. Tit 2:13, 14
There is no mention of the Father here…words like “WHO GAVE HIMSELF“, ”That HE” might redeem us from all iniquity, and ”purify UNTO HIMSELF” clearly contradicts your agency claim.
WJ
Hi All
Over 150 scriptures claim Jesus is the Source of all things to all true believers…Click Here!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 28 2011,05:12) How many Saviors do you have ED? WJ
Hi WJ,Did you not read my Post? …ONE! (See Isaiah 45:21)
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
