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t8
Quote And thus whatever Jesus is, we will be. That is impossible to be the only begotten Son too, sorry to burst your bubble.
Define “partake of divine nature” with scripture, please.
Quote If you call him Theos because of his nature, then you can't forgot that we will be as he is and he will call us brothers. We will not be brothers by nature but by adoption. Did you not know that?
Galatians 4:5 NAS
so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.Romans 9:4 NAS
who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,Romans 8:23 NAS
And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.Romans 8:15 NAS
For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba ! Father !”Please adjust your theology
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ July 31 2011,20:44) The unity of the Father and the Son made the plan and to carry it out, the Father sent His Son.
I'm aware of the many scriptures that say the Father sent His Son. I am unaware of the scripture(s) that contain the rest of the information you claimed. Perhaps you could point me to the scripture(s) that tell us how the Father AND the Son made a plan for the Son to be sent to earth?Thanks in advance,
mikeQuote (Lightenup @ July 31 2011,21:16)
Gen 40:1
Pharoah is called adown, not adonay
see here:
http://classic.net.bible.org/verse.p….verse=1
Then check it in Biblos.com, for NETBible doesn't specify the plurality or singularity of the word “adon” in any scripture…………from what I could tell when I put this info together. Biblos does.Quote (Lightenup @ July 31 2011,21:16)
Notice the capitol letter, that is the Lord as deity, in Isaiah 21:8…
From Barnes: My lord, I stand continually upon the watch-tower – This is the speech of the watchman, and is addressed, not to Yahweh, but to him that appointed him.From Wesley's Notes: My lord – The watchman speaks to the prophet, who had set him in this station.
Kathi, do you think God asked Isaiah to post a watchman for His OWN benefit? Did God not already know who would approach and when?
Quote (Lightenup @ July 31 2011,21:16)
Psalms 136:3 is not the same Lord as in Gen 40:1
Check This Biblos.com link against the link above. You'll see it is the same “la adonei” used in both scriptures.I won't bother with the Gen 18 one – for what's the point?
peace,
mikeQuote (Lightenup @ July 31 2011,21:23) There is literally only one Savior in the ultimate sense who was both the Father and the Son.. In the less than ultimate sense, there were others. Not sure why you are making such a big deal about this.
Kathi
Hi Kathi,This was more for Keith, Jack and Ed. But if you read my next post to Ed, you'll understand why this is important.
I'll take your answer to mean, “YES Mike, there WERE other saviors mentioned in scripture besides Jehovah.”
mike
Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 01 2011,15:29) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 01 2011,05:18) Quote (Ed J @ July 30 2011,15:27) 3) False!
Okay Ed,Here we go taking BABY steps for you:
Hosea 13:4
“But I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me.1. Ed J, do the words “no savior except me” mean that there has never been any other savior mentioned in scripture besides Jehovah? YES or NO?
2. Do those words exclude Moses, Samson, Saul, Jesus and many others from being the saviors that God Himself SENT? YES or NO?
mike
Hi Mike,1) JEHOVAH was “The Savior” behind all those saving acts.
2) Of course not.God bless
Ed J
Hi Ed,I'll conclude from your answer to #2 that your answer to #1 is, “Although there could be no other savior without Jehovah being behind them, YES, there WERE other saviors mentioned in the scriptures”.
As for #2: If you agree that the words, “you shall acknowlege NO SAVIOR except me” do NOT exclude Moses, Samson, Saul, Jesus and many others WHO ARE NOT JEHOVAH HIMSELF from being saviors, then how do you conclude that the words, “you shall acknowledge NO GOD except me” WOULD exclude Jesus, Satan, or others from being gods?
Here is the bottom line Ed. If Jesus can still be a savior in light of the words of Hosea 13:4, then Jesus can also still be a god in light of those same words.
You and Jack and Keith try to make this into a double standard. You think “no savior but me” makes it acceptable for there to be other saviors. You are capable of understanding that God is speaking emphatically, indicating that without Him, there could be no other savior.
But when it comes to the “no God but me” part of that scripture, all of a sudden you can't seem to understand it as an emphatic way for God to point out that He is the ULTIMATE God, and without Him, there could be no other gods.
Ed, Jesus is a god, whether you like it or not. So is Satan, who Jehovah Himself called “the god of Ekron”. And Jehovah could not POSSIBLY be “the God OF gods” if there were no other gods at all.
Can YOU understand this Ed? Because Jack and Keith have been PRETENDING that they can't for at least two years now.
Oh, and btw: NO, I don't consider myself to be a god.
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2011,21:50) Since we all now KNOW of the existence of OTHER saviors in the scriptures, what exactly is it that makes them “shadow saviors” while Jesus is “the real McCoy”? 1. Was not Jesus SENT by his God to be a savior just like all of the other ones?
2. Was he not empowered by his God?
3. Did he not follow the commands of his God?
All I want is TRUTHFUL answers to these particular questions. I don't want to hear, “Jehovah consists of the Father and the Son” or “Jesus sustains all things”. These things are neither here nor there as far as these questions are concerned. Please ONLY deal with exact and honest answers to the three numbered questions.
peace,
mikeQuote (Lightenup @ July 31 2011,21:28) 1. NO
Hi Kathi,
Please explain your answer of “NO” to the first question.Quote (Lightenup @ July 31 2011,21:28) 2. According to His flesh, yes, according to His deity nature, He, Himself was the power of God.
So then Jesus did NOT have his “deity nature” at all while on the earth? Because on the earth, he WAS empowered by God, right?Quote (Lightenup @ July 31 2011,21:28) 3. He did follow all commands of His God, according to His flesh and He followed all commands of His Father, according to His deity.
I see. So then Jehovah is NOT STILL the God of Jesus? I wonder why Jesus calls Him “my God” many times in Revelation.OH! THAT'S RIGHT! It is the “human nature” of Jesus who calls Jehovah “my God”…………..not the “deity nature”!
We'll look into that later, and see how it stacks up with the words of John's revelation. But for now:Kathi, which “nature” of Jesus was the savior of all mankind?
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 01 2011,19:33) Quote (Lightenup @ July 31 2011,21:16)
Gen 40:1
Pharoah is called adown, not adonay
see here:
http://classic.net.bible.org/verse.p….verse=1
Then check it in Biblos.com, for NETBible doesn't specify the plurality or singularity of the word “adon” in any scripture…………from what I could tell when I put this info together. Biblos does.Quote (Lightenup @ July 31 2011,21:16)
Notice the capitol letter, that is the Lord as deity, in Isaiah 21:8…
From Barnes: My lord, I stand continually upon the watch-tower – This is the speech of the watchman, and is addressed, not to Yahweh, but to him that appointed him.From Wesley's Notes: My lord – The watchman speaks to the prophet, who had set him in this station.
Kathi, do you think God asked Isaiah to post a watchman for His OWN benefit? Did God not already know who would approach and when?
Quote (Lightenup @ July 31 2011,21:16)
Psalms 136:3 is not the same Lord as in Gen 40:1
Check This Biblos.com link against the link above. You'll see it is the same “la adonei” used in both scriptures.I won't bother with the Gen 18 one – for what's the point?
peace,
mike
Mike,
Compare these 'Lord/lord” lexicons.Gen 40:1 is Strong's 113, not #136 (emphatic form)
http://biblos.com/genesis/40-1.htm
http://www.studylight.org/isb….=1&l=en
Just click on the word 'lord.'
Psalms 136:3
'Lord' is Strong's #113 for the Lord of lordsIn Deut 10:17, the word for Lord is strong's #136.
I don't know why David used #113 and it is #136 in Deut 10:17 For Lord of lords. That is a mystery but both can apply to deity.
Anyway, you have not proven that #136 does not apply to deity.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 02 2011,08:52) That is impossible to be the only begotten Son too, sorry to burst your bubble.
You didn't burst my bubble. The bubble floated way above your head. It might have looked like it burst, but the light might have blinded your vision.Jesus is the son of God. And we are are the sons of God. So we are like him. I didn't say that we would have first place in everything, or that we would be called Yeshua. That is reserved for Christ as he is the prototype. But like most successful prototypes, it is not long before you have many others to follow.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 02 2011,08:52) We will not be brothers by nature but by adoption. Did you not know that?
And do you not know that we can partake of divine nature.Yes we are adopted, I know that.
Q: What happens when we are adopted?
A: We become the sons of God. Not the lesser sons of God, but the sons of God.And one of the precious promises is we will be like him. Our bodies will be transformed into a body like his. First is the carnal, then the spiritual. He calls us brothers. As sons, we are given the privileges that go with being sons.
Being adopted doesn't mean that God doesn't love us any less, or that we end up somehow a lesser version of a son, or have less nature than a son. It just means that we are grafted into the family of God without deserving it, or deserving of that birth right.
In fact we cannot even imagine the great things that God has waiting for those that love him. He is not going to hold back on us. We are not second class sons because we are adopted.
Hi t8,
you said:Quote And one of the precious promises is we will be like him. Our bodies will be transformed into a body like his. First is the carnal, then the spiritual. He calls us brothers. As sons, we are given the privileges that go with being sons. Being adopted doesn't mean that God doesn't love us any less, or that we end up somehow a lesser version of a son, or have less nature than a son. It just means that we are grafted into the family of God without deserving it, or deserving of that birth right.
In fact we cannot even imagine the great things that God has waiting for those that love him. He is not going to hold back on us. We are not second class sons because we are adopted.
Those are wonderful promises. It is true that we will be like Him, however…not exactly like Him. We will never have always existed like the Father and the Son and we will never have always had deity nature. That is a major difference. That is what makes them deity and us not deity.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 05 2011,01:08) Hi t8,
you said:Quote And one of the precious promises is we will be like him. Our bodies will be transformed into a body like his. First is the carnal, then the spiritual. He calls us brothers. As sons, we are given the privileges that go with being sons. Being adopted doesn't mean that God doesn't love us any less, or that we end up somehow a lesser version of a son, or have less nature than a son. It just means that we are grafted into the family of God without deserving it, or deserving of that birth right.
In fact we cannot even imagine the great things that God has waiting for those that love him. He is not going to hold back on us. We are not second class sons because we are adopted.
Those are wonderful promises. It is true that we will be like Him, however…not exactly like Him. We will never have always existed like the Father and the Son and we will never have always had deity nature. That is a major difference. That is what makes them deity and us not deity.
Kathi
t8 said that we are not second class sons because we are adopted. This is true but an adopted son is still distinct from a begotten son. A begotten son is from the loins of his father while an adopted son is not.t8 is trying to abolish the distinction between Jesus and us and he is MISREABLY failing!
Jack
I agree Jack,
The adopted sons, although equally part of the family, will never be exactly like the 'biological' son, even as much as t8 would like to make it appear so.Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 03 2011,23:42) Anyway, you have not proven that #136 does not apply to deity.
What about Barnes, Wesley, and COMMON SENSE in Isaiah?Was God requesting the watchman to let HIM know when someone approached?
Also, you forgot this question (among others
):
Kathi, which “nature” of Jesus was the savior of all mankind?Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 02 2011,12:12) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 01 2011,15:29) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 01 2011,05:18) Quote (Ed J @ July 30 2011,15:27) 3) False!
Okay Ed,Here we go taking BABY steps for you:
Hosea 13:4
“But I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me.1. Ed J, do the words “no savior except me” mean that there has never been any other savior mentioned in scripture besides Jehovah? YES or NO?
2. Do those words exclude Moses, Samson, Saul, Jesus and many others from being the saviors that God Himself SENT? YES or NO?
mike
Hi Mike,1) JEHOVAH was “The Savior” behind all those saving acts.
2) Of course not.God bless
Ed J
Hi Ed,I'll conclude from your answer to #2 that your answer to #1 is, “Although there could be no other savior without Jehovah being behind them, YES, there WERE other saviors mentioned in the scriptures”.
As for #2: If you agree that the words, “you shall acknowlege NO SAVIOR except me” do NOT exclude Moses, Samson, Saul, Jesus and many others WHO ARE NOT JEHOVAH HIMSELF from being saviors, then how do you conclude that the words, “you shall acknowledge NO GOD except me” WOULD exclude Jesus, Satan, or others from being gods?
Here is the bottom line Ed. If Jesus can still be a savior in light of the words of Hosea 13:4, then Jesus can also still be a god in light of those same words.
You and Jack and Keith try to make this into a double standard. You think “no savior but me” makes it acceptable for there to be other saviors. You are capable of understanding that God is speaking emphatically, indicating that without Him, there could be no other savior.
But when it comes to the “no God but me” part of that scripture, all of a sudden you can't seem to understand it as an emphatic way for God to point out that He is the ULTIMATE God, and without Him, there could be no other gods.
Ed, Jesus is a god, whether you like it or not. So is Satan, who Jehovah Himself called “the god of Ekron”. And Jehovah could not POSSIBLY be “the God OF gods” if there were no other gods at all.
Can YOU understand this Ed? Because Jack and Keith have been PRETENDING that they can't for at least two years now.
Oh, and btw: NO, I don't consider myself to be a god.
peace,
mike
Hi Mike,Do you believe there actually was a god who was “the god of Ekron”?
Do you also believe that YHVH destroyed this god?Do you then therefore also believe Jesus was a god (according to Mike) before YHVH?
And that was the reason Jesus had to die? Your logic may seem to dictate such a conclusion; no?Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Please address this point I make about your logic, will you Mike?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Lightenup @ Aug. 05 2011,02:03) I agree Jack,
The adopted sons, although equally part of the family, will never be exactly like the 'biological' son, even as much as t8 would like to make it appear so.Kathi
Well, now we know why the screen for children to be adopted
and just don't hand them over to anyone.Really, you need to talk to some parents that have adopted and the children they have adopted, to them there is no difference, further, ask a brother or sister of one that has been adopted. One that speaks of unity, can surely divide quickly.
So the child that ask for bread will be given fish?
Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 06 2011,19:55) Hi Mike, Do you believe there actually was a god who was “the god of Ekron”?
Do you also believe that YHVH destroyed this god?
Hi Ed,Jehovah has not destroyed the god of Ekron. He lives still. You know him by the name “Satan”.
Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 06 2011,19:55) Do you then therefore also believe Jesus was a god (according to Mike) before YHVH?
And that was the reason Jesus had to die? Your logic may seem to dictate such a conclusion; no?
No, I do not believe this. I believe that Jesus is the only begotten god, as John 1:18 teaches us.Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 06 2011,19:55) Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Please address this point I make about your logic, will you Mike?
I'm trying to do that right now, Ed. But you apparently aren't listening. Did you read my last post to you? Do you agree that God sent OTHER saviors even as He said He is the ONLY savior? How do you conclude from those facts that God meant He was the ULTIMATE Savior and not literally the ONLY One, but you can't come to the same conclusion about “only god”?Was Paul lying when he said Satan is the god of this age? Did he lie when he said there are gods many and lords many, both in heaven and on earth? Did Jesus lie when he pointed out that even men have been called gods? Was Moses lying when he said that God passed judgment on the gods of Egypt – the ones who matched many of the signs and wonders that Moses performed?
This can all be resolved if you would directly answer only 2 simple questions:
1. Ed, did God send OTHER saviors even though He said He was the ONLY one? YES or NO?
2. Could Jehovah be the God OF gods if there literally were no other gods for Him to be the God OF? YES or NO?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 08 2011,02:23) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 06 2011,19:55) Hi Mike, Do you believe there actually was a god who was “the god of Ekron”?
Do you also believe that YHVH destroyed this god?
Hi Ed,Jehovah has not destroyed the god of Ekron. He lives still. You know him by the name “Satan”.
Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 06 2011,19:55) Do you then therefore also believe Jesus was a god (according to Mike) before YHVH?
And that was the reason Jesus had to die? Your logic may seem to dictate such a conclusion; no?
No, I do not believe this. I believe that Jesus is the only begotten god, as John 1:18 teaches us.Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 06 2011,19:55) Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Please address this point I make about your logic, will you Mike?
I'm trying to do that right now, Ed. But you apparently aren't listening. Did you read my last post to you? Do you agree that God sent OTHER saviors even as He said He is the ONLY savior? How do you conclude from those facts that God meant He was the ULTIMATE Savior and not literally the ONLY One, but you can't come to the same conclusion about “only god”?Was Paul lying when he said Satan is the god of this age? Did he lie when he said there are gods many and lords many, both in heaven and on earth? Did Jesus lie when he pointed out that even men have been called gods? Was Moses lying when he said that God passed judgment on the gods of Egypt – the ones who matched many of the signs and wonders that Moses performed?
This can all be resolved if you would directly answer only 2 simple questions:
1. Ed, did God send OTHER saviors even though He said He was the ONLY one? YES or NO?
2. Could Jehovah be the God OF gods if there literally were no other gods for Him to be the God OF? YES or NO?
mike
Hi Mike,1. God is “The Savior”, who sent those who he chose: to do his will.
2. Are you suggesting that YHVH also sent and chose satan to do his will?
Do you see that those two ideas (saviors and gods), do not connect up together.Deut.10:17-20 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and LORD of Lords, a great God,
a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward: He doth execute
the judgment of the fatherless and widow, and loveth the stranger, in giving him food and raiment.
Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt. Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God;
him shalt thou serve, and to him shalt thou cleave, and swear by his name. (You say you are not a god; correct?)Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 02 2011,12:12) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 02 2011,08:29)
Do you consider yourself a god?NO, I don't consider myself to be a god.
A. Do the 'owners' in this world consider YHVH to be their “OWNER”?
B. Do the (so called) god's of this world consider YHVH to be their “GOD”?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ Aug. 07 2011,12:01) Do you see that those two ideas (saviors and gods), do not connect up together.
No, I don't.What you are doing is playing with words, Ed.
The question was whether or not God SENT OTHER saviors. Your answer was you playing a game.
The CORRECT answer is “YES Mike, ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES THEMSELVES, God DID send OTHER saviors.”
Can you agree to that DIRECT answer, Ed? If not, then bugger off, for I have neither the time nor the patience to play your word games.
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 08 2011,05:15) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 07 2011,12:01) Do you see that those two ideas (saviors and gods), do not connect up together.
No, I don't.What you are doing is playing with words, Ed.
(I)The question was whether or not God SENT OTHER saviors. Your answer was you playing a game.
(II)The CORRECT answer is “YES Mike, ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES THEMSELVES, God DID send OTHER saviors.”
(III)Can you agree to that DIRECT answer, Ed? If not, then bugger off, for I have neither the time nor the patience to play your word games.
mike
Hi Mike,You still have time.
What you are doing is: tying unrelated ideas together.
I have answered both of your questions (1 & 2),
and you have answered neither of my questions (A or B).
Nevertheless, I will still answer your current questions (I, II & III).I) Yes.
II) Correct.
III) You have now detached saviors from gods, as YOU should!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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