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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 30 2011,15:15) Theos/god is a “masculine noun” but “Keith is a “proper name”. See how incomplete and deceptive your example is?
Oh my yes! I'm such a deceptive creature – thanks for catching me!
Let's try one that might not enable you to play word games:
Btw, they only quote the word “gods”, not “called gods” as you've mistakenly quoted them. Which is as normal as me quoting “towers” in the sentence, “There are many structures called 'towers', but only one Eiffel Tower”.
There Keith, was that “less deceptive” of me?
Quote (Ed J @ July 30 2011,15:27) 3) False!
Okay Ed,Here we go taking BABY steps for you:
Hosea 13:4
“But I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me.1. Ed J, do the words “no savior except me” mean that there has never been any other savior mentioned in scripture besides Jehovah? YES or NO?
2. Do those words exclude Moses, Samson, Saul, Jesus and many others from being the saviors that God Himself SENT? YES or NO?
mike
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 30 2011,08:51) Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2011,00:00) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2011,22:30) Quote (Lightenup @ July 27 2011,23:20) Pierre,
Here is your scripture:See my notes in parenthesis:
Isaiah 19:20
It will become a sign and a witness to the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt; for they will cry to the LORD (Jehovah our God, the unity of the Father and the Son) because of oppressors, and He (still Jehovah) will send them a Savior and a Champion, and He (this would be the Son as the Christ) will deliver them.
So then Jehovah the Son SENT Jesus the Christ to be a savior?
Mike,
The Lord of lords, the Son, agreed to be sent and was sent by the Father, the God of gods.Kathi
Kathi,You'd better check you own post again. Your first post says that the Father/Son unity SENT the Son. But your latter post says Jesus was sent ONLY by the Father.
Which is it?
What a tangled web we weave……………………
Bump for KathiQuote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2011,21:50) Since we all now KNOW of the existence of OTHER saviors in the scriptures, what exactly is it that makes them “shadow saviors” while Jesus is “the real McCoy”? 1. Was not Jesus SENT by his God to be a savior just like all of the other ones?
2. Was he not empowered by his God?
3. Did he not follow the commands of his God?
All I want is TRUTHFUL answers to these particular questions. I don't want to hear, “Jehovah consists of the Father and the Son” or “Jesus sustains all things”. These things are neither here nor there as far as these questions are concerned. Please ONLY deal with exact and honest answers to the three numbered questions.
peace,
mike
Bump for the Three AmigosQuote (mikeboll64 @ July 31 2011,17:45) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 30 2011,08:51) Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2011,00:00) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2011,22:30) Quote (Lightenup @ July 27 2011,23:20) Pierre,
Here is your scripture:See my notes in parenthesis:
Isaiah 19:20
It will become a sign and a witness to the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt; for they will cry to the LORD (Jehovah our God, the unity of the Father and the Son) because of oppressors, and He (still Jehovah) will send them a Savior and a Champion, and He (this would be the Son as the Christ) will deliver them.
So then Jehovah the Son SENT Jesus the Christ to be a savior?
Mike,
The Lord of lords, the Son, agreed to be sent and was sent by the Father, the God of gods.Kathi
Kathi,You'd better check you own post again. Your first post says that the Father/Son unity SENT the Son. But your latter post says Jesus was sent ONLY by the Father.
Which is it?
What a tangled web we weave……………………
Bump for Kathi
The Father and the Son are always in unity…in agreement. They agreed that the Son would go and therefore the Son was sent by the Father.The unity of the Father and the Son made the plan and to carry it out, the Father sent His Son.
Kathi
Quote The Father and the Son are always in unity…in agreement. They agreed that the Son would go and therefore the Son was sent by the Father. The unity of the Father and the Son made the plan and to carry it out, the Father sent His Son.
and so all the angels and men who have participate either partly or fully in their lives are not counted Like moses ,John the baptist Paul,Peter just to name a few
Ps 8:4 what is man that you are mindful of him,
the son of man that you care for him?
Ps 144:3 O LORD, what is man that you care for him,
the son of man that you think of him?
Heb 2:6 But there is a place where someone has testified:
“What is man that you are mindful of him,
the son of man that you care for him?Jn 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
Pierre
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 30 2011,10:54) Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2011,00:05) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2011,22:19) Quote (Lightenup @ July 27 2011,22:48) BTW, that Hebrew word for Lord, the first Lord in 'Lord of lords,' is Adonay. The word used ONLY for our deity Lord.
You are mistaken, Kathi. Ask Jack. He quoted Barnes or someone who made the same claim you did, and I showed him TWO scriptures where “adonay” was used for someone other than God in the OT.I just tried searching for that info, but couldn't find it right away. I wish t8's search would take you to the actual PAGE of the thread, instead of just showing the threads the words are in.
(And yes Ed, I did the F3 thing.
)
Mike,
I would like to see your scriptures. Can you find them, please?Kathi
Hi Kathi,In Genesis 40:1, Pharaoh is called adonai.
In Isaiah 21:8, Isaiah is called by this title.
In Psalm 136:3, the “adonai” in “Lord of lords” is the same “adonai” Pharoah is called in Gen 40:1.
The same applies with Genesis 18:3, when Abraham calls one of the three men by this title. But I know you won't consider this as an exception to the rule, for you think one of the three men WAS “God the Son” anyway.
Gen 40:1
Pharoah is called adown, not adonay
see here:
http://classic.net.bible.org/verse.p….verse=1Notice the capitol letter, that is the Lord as deity, in Isaiah 21:8…
Isaiah 21:6 For thus the Lord says to me,
“Go, station the lookout, let him report what he sees.7“When he sees riders, horsemen in pairs,
A train of donkeys, a train of camels,
Let him pay close attention, very close attention.”8Then the lookout called,
“O Lord, I stand continually by day on the watchtower,
And I am stationed every night at my guard post.9“Now behold, here comes a troop of riders, horsemen in pairs.”
And one said, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon;
And all the images of her gods are shattered on the ground.”10O my threshed people, and my afflicted of the threshing floor!
What I have heard from the LORD of hosts,
The God of Israel, I make known to you.Gill says that the lookout is Isaiah:
Quote Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
For thus hath the Lord said unto me,…. This is a confirmation of the above prophecy from the Lord himself, he showing to the prophet, in a visionary way, the ruin of Babylon, and the means and instruments of it:go, set a watchman; not Habakkuk, as Jarchi; nor Urias, as the Septuagint; nor Jeremiah, as others; but himself, who, in a way of vision, represented a watchman on the walls of Babylon; and which was no way unsuitable to his character and office as a prophet:
let him declare what he seeth; what he sees coming at a distance, or at hand, let him faithfully and publicly make it known: these are not the words of the king of Babylon to one of his watchmen; but of the Lord of hosts to his prophet.
Psalms 136:3 is not the same Lord as in Gen 40:1
Genesis 18: IS the Lord of lords, the Son of God. The Son is Adonay, the deity.
Quote Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
For thus hath the Lord said unto me,…. This is a confirmation of the above prophecy from the Lord himself, he showing to the prophet, in a visionary way, the ruin of Babylon, and the means and instruments of it:go, set a watchman; not Habakkuk, as Jarchi; nor Urias, as the Septuagint; nor Jeremiah, as others; but himself, who, in a way of vision, represented a watchman on the walls of Babylon; and which was no way unsuitable to his character and office as a prophet:
let him declare what he seeth; what he sees coming at a distance, or at hand, let him faithfully and publicly make it known: these are not the words of the king of Babylon to one of his watchmen; but of the Lord of hosts to his prophet.
Thanks for looking for those verses. They do not prove that adonay is used for someone other than the true Lord.
Kathi
Pierre,
Quote and so all the angels and men who have participate either partly or fully in their lives are not counted Like moses ,John the baptist Paul,Peter just to name a few
No, they are not also part of Jehovah as God.Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 30 2011,09:58) Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2011,00:04) Asked and answered. There is one ultimate Savior who is both the Father and the Son.
I was looking for clarification by your own words that you acknowledge that our Ultimate Savior SENT other saviors.I want you to CLEARY state the truth of the matter that “only Savior” means “Ultimate Savior” (which you HAVE done)……………..BUT NOT LITERALLY THE ONLY SAVIOR, PERIOD (which you have yet to CLEARLY state).
There is literally only one Savior in the ultimate sense who was both the Father and the Son.. In the less than ultimate sense, there were others.Not sure why you are making such a big deal about this.
KathiQuote (mikeboll64 @ July 31 2011,17:46) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2011,21:50) Since we all now KNOW of the existence of OTHER saviors in the scriptures, what exactly is it that makes them “shadow saviors” while Jesus is “the real McCoy”? 1. Was not Jesus SENT by his God to be a savior just like all of the other ones?
2. Was he not empowered by his God?
3. Did he not follow the commands of his God?
All I want is TRUTHFUL answers to these particular questions. I don't want to hear, “Jehovah consists of the Father and the Son” or “Jesus sustains all things”. These things are neither here nor there as far as these questions are concerned. Please ONLY deal with exact and honest answers to the three numbered questions.
peace,
mike
Bump for the Three Amigos
1. NO
2. According to His flesh, yes, according to His deity nature, He, Himself was the power of God.
3. He did follow all commands of His God, according to His flesh and He followed all commands of His Father, according to His deity.Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2011,21:20) Pierre, Quote and so all the angels and men who have participate either partly or fully in their lives are not counted Like moses ,John the baptist Paul,Peter just to name a few
No, they are not also part of Jehovah as God.
Kathibut it says in scriptures we all are gods
so ?
By nature we are no gods Pierre. There lies the difference. Men or angels can have authority and in that way they may be considered as gods, but by nature they are no gods.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2011,21:34) By nature we are no gods Pierre. There lies the difference. Men or angels can have authority and in that way they may be considered as gods, but by nature they are no gods. Kathi
Kathiwe are not but the angels are,right? are they not spirits ?
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2011,14:23) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 30 2011,09:58) Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2011,00:04) Asked and answered. There is one ultimate Savior who is both the Father and the Son.
I was looking for clarification by your own words that you acknowledge that our Ultimate Savior SENT other saviors.I want you to CLEARY state the truth of the matter that “only Savior” means “Ultimate Savior” (which you HAVE done)……………..BUT NOT LITERALLY THE ONLY SAVIOR, PERIOD (which you have yet to CLEARLY state).
There is literally only one Savior in the ultimate sense who was both the Father and the Son.. In the less than ultimate sense, there were others.Not sure why you are making such a big deal about this.
Kathi
Kathi,Mike has to make a big deal about it because he is running from his Savior Jesus Christ.
“The Father sent the Son THE SAVIOR of the world” (1 John).
Jack
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2011,14:23) who was both the Father and the Son.
Correction.“THEY were the Father and Son.”
It sounds like you are referring to one person, but then address two. Hence the correction.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2011,14:34) By nature we are no gods Pierre. There lies the difference. Men or angels can have authority and in that way they may be considered as gods, but by nature they are no gods. Kathi
It is true that men and angels are called theos/elohim in an authoritative sense. But it is also true that we can partake of divine nature, and that our current lowly bodies will be transformed into a body like his. And thus whatever Jesus is, we will be.If he is the son, then we are sons. If you call him Theos because of his nature, then you can't forgot that we will be as he is and he will call us brothers.
My point is that your doctrine pertaining to Christ has consequences for your understanding about what we will become also.
For me, Jesus is the son of God, and we are the sons of God. Thus those who believe what is written have no difficulty with identifying with him with the true revelation of him being the son of God and we being like him as the sons of God.
But if he is the Almighty God to you, then you need to factor in the redeemed and what they will become. Secondly, we will be one with God and Jesus, another reason to be careful as to what you make Jesus to be.
Can your doctrine handle these true points taken from scripture? I say no, it cannot. Because your doctrine besides being contradictory as to the Father being the one true God, also contradicts what scripture says we will become.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 01 2011,05:18) Quote (Ed J @ July 30 2011,15:27) 3) False!
Okay Ed,Here we go taking BABY steps for you:
Hosea 13:4
“But I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me.1. Ed J, do the words “no savior except me” mean that there has never been any other savior mentioned in scripture besides Jehovah? YES or NO?
2. Do those words exclude Moses, Samson, Saul, Jesus and many others from being the saviors that God Himself SENT? YES or NO?
mike
Hi Mike,1) JEHOVAH was “The Savior” behind all those saving acts.
2) Of course not.Do you consider yourself a god?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (t8 @ Aug. 01 2011,04:16) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 01 2011,14:23) who was both the Father and the Son.
Correction.“THEY were the Father and Son.”
It sounds like you are referring to one person, but then address two. Hence the correction.
t8, it would help you to learn how a compound unity is spoken about in the singular at times and in plural at times. Since a compound unity is about a oneness that contains more than one.If the subject of the sentence is written in the singular sense, the pronoun that refers back to it should be written in the singular sense. My sentence was just fine. You changed it incorrectly. I was referring to one unity, not one person.
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