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Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2011,22:28) Quote (Lightenup @ July 27 2011,22:53) Together the Father and the Son agreed to have the Father send the Son to be the Savior of the world. 
Why didn't you just say that they agreed the Son would go? If they both agreed on it, then why did one SEND the other? This gets more amusing all the time.Anyway, is there LITERALLY only one Savior in scripture, Kathi? Or has the Ultimate Savior sent OTHER saviors at various times? Keith? Jack? Ed?
Asked and answered. There is one ultimate Savior who is both the Father and the Son.What is your problem with them agreeing that one of them should be sent by the other.
In church, the members send the missionary. They are both in agreement that this should be done.
Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2011,22:19) Quote (Lightenup @ July 27 2011,22:48) BTW, that Hebrew word for Lord, the first Lord in 'Lord of lords,' is Adonay. The word used ONLY for our deity Lord.
You are mistaken, Kathi. Ask Jack. He quoted Barnes or someone who made the same claim you did, and I showed him TWO scriptures where “adonay” was used for someone other than God in the OT.I just tried searching for that info, but couldn't find it right away. I wish t8's search would take you to the actual PAGE of the thread, instead of just showing the threads the words are in.
(And yes Ed, I did the F3 thing.
)
Mike,
I would like to see your scriptures. Can you find them, please?Kathi
Quote (terraricca @ July 28 2011,12:32) Quote (Lightenup @ July 28 2011,23:20) Pierre,
Here is your scripture:See my notes in parenthesis:
Isaiah 19:20
It will become a sign and a witness to the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt; for they will cry to the LORD (Jehovah our God, the unity of the Father and the Son) because of oppressors, and He (still Jehovah) will send them a Savior and a Champion, and He (this would be the Son as the Christ) will deliver them.Any time you see the name Jehovah which is the name of the unity of the Father and the Son, you can assume the agreement of the Father and the Son for that is part of their perfect unity…agreement in all things. The Father is not a 'dictator father' to the Son, they have a mutual submission…one as Father to Son and the other as Son to Father. Jehovah our God would also have us to submit one to another.
Seek to understand Pierre,
Kathi
KathiIsa 19:20 It will be a sign and witness to the LORD Almighty in the land of Egypt. When they cry out to the LORD because of their oppressors, he will send them a savior and defender, and he will rescue them.NIV
Isa 19:20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them. KJV
where you get your thinking I have no idea ,but you have much imagination,
scriptures say that Christ as received all authority to fulfill his fathers will and only wen he is finish doing that he turn all things over to his father,
you have NO scriptures to back up your dreams
Pierre
Pierre,
The church sends missionaries from within the church all the time. The compound unity sends one of it's members…what is hard about that? That member goes to another country but is still a member of the sending church and comes back every so often to be with the sending church.A man and wife can decide together that the husband sends his wife to go take care of her dying father.
I don't know why you have a problem with understanding this.
KathiQuote (terraricca @ July 28 2011,12:36) Quote (Lightenup @ July 28 2011,23:12) Quote (terraricca @ July 27 2011,23:58) Quote (Lightenup @ July 28 2011,22:53) Mike,
you said in your post above to Keith:Quote God is the “ULTIMATE SAVIOR”, because no one else would have the power to even save a single hair on their head if not for Him. This is what it means, guys. Not that God is LITERALLY the ONLY Savior, but that He is the ULTIMATE Savior. The God that is the ultimate savior is Jehovah our God which is the unity of both the Father and the Son.
Salvation belongs to both as one Jehovah God. Jehovah God is the name of two persons…the Father and the Son.
Together the Father and the Son agreed to have the Father send the Son to be the Savior of the world.
Kathi
kathi where are your scriptures
Pierre,
You don't believe that Jehovah sent the Son into the world? You really need scriptures for this? Do you not already know this elementary principle?Kathi
KathiQuote The God that is the ultimate savior is Jehovah our God which is the unity of both the Father and the Son. any scriptures for your quote ??
Pierre
Pierre,
See my only post on this page…I have shown you many times already.Quote (terraricca @ July 28 2011,05:25) Quote (Ed J @ July 27 2011,22:48) Quote (terraricca @ July 27 2011,03:26) edj Quote Mike,
The Father and the Son together acted in unity as the one savior. Salvation belongs to both and they are one.God the ruler over all,Christ his son ,100000000 angels the Army,human believers and prophets #? (are the earthly active members)
all are part of God will and so participant in being the saviors of creation,(some bigger parts than others)All guided by the WILL of God (holy spirit )
SO THERE IS ONLY ONE SAVIOR “GOD”
Pierre
Hi Pierre,Read Isaiah 43:11 and Isaiah 45:21 and get back to me.
God bless
eD j (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
edjIsa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD,
and apart from me there is no savior.Isa 45:21 Declare what is to be, present it—
let them take counsel together.
Who foretold this long ago,
who declared it from the distant past?
Was it not I, the LORD?
And there is no God apart from me,
a righteous God and a Savior;
there is none but meGod the ruler over all,Christ his son ,100000000 angels the Army,human believers and prophets #? (are the earthly active members)
all are part of God will and so participant in being the saviors of creation,(some bigger parts than others)All guided by the WILL of God (holy spirit )
SO THERE IS ONLY ONE SAVIOR “GOD”
so those scriptures are confirming what I have written
thanks ed
Pierre
Hi Pierre,Your welcome.
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2011,12:53) From Gill:
thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hands of their enemies; such were judges, Othniel, Ehud, Barak, Gideon, &c. and this was, done for them, not on account of their merits, but the abundant unmerited mercy of the Lord towards them.I concur. How about you, Kathi? Ed? Keith? Jack?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2011,12:49)
YOUR answer to MY question will easily answer your question for you.
Hi Mike,FALSE! …you're trying to connect two different ideas together.
Other saviors does not mean other gods; THAT WAS MY POINT!
I know Moses was one and Gideon was another savior to Israel.God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (mikeboll64 @ July 29 2011,14:28) has the Ultimate Savior sent OTHER saviors at various times? Keith? Jack? Ed?
Yes Mike. “The Savior”(117) = “GOD The Father”(117)Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2011,01:05) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2011,22:19) Quote (Lightenup @ July 27 2011,22:48) BTW, that Hebrew word for Lord, the first Lord in 'Lord of lords,' is Adonay. The word used ONLY for our deity Lord.
You are mistaken, Kathi. Ask Jack. He quoted Barnes or someone who made the same claim you did, and I showed him TWO scriptures where “adonay” was used for someone other than God in the OT.I just tried searching for that info, but couldn't find it right away. I wish t8's search would take you to the actual PAGE of the thread, instead of just showing the threads the words are in.
(And yes Ed, I did the F3 thing.
)
Mike,
I would like to see your scriptures. Can you find them, please?Kathi
Mike,
Were you thinking of Ezra 10:3? In some translations it is translated as lord and in others as Lord. So that is inconsistent.Studylight.org has this Lord as Strong's 136
http://www.studylight.org/lex….ion=nsnand at this link it has it as Strong's 113.
http://interlinearbible.org/ezra/10-3.htmKathi
Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2011,17:00) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2011,22:30) Quote (Lightenup @ July 27 2011,23:20) Pierre,
Here is your scripture:See my notes in parenthesis:
Isaiah 19:20
It will become a sign and a witness to the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt; for they will cry to the LORD (Jehovah our God, the unity of the Father and the Son) because of oppressors, and He (still Jehovah) will send them a Savior and a Champion, and He (this would be the Son as the Christ) will deliver them.
So then Jehovah the Son SENT Jesus the Christ to be a savior?
Mike,
The Lord of lords, the Son, agreed to be sent and was sent by the Father, the God of gods.Kathi
Kathi,Exactly! Jesus said that if He had asked His Father for legions of angels to deliver Him His Father would have given it.
Jesus did not have to die. But He did and Mike cannot appreciate it.
“The life I now live I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me” (Galatians 2:20)
Jack
Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2011,00:00) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2011,22:30) Quote (Lightenup @ July 27 2011,23:20) Pierre,
Here is your scripture:See my notes in parenthesis:
Isaiah 19:20
It will become a sign and a witness to the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt; for they will cry to the LORD (Jehovah our God, the unity of the Father and the Son) because of oppressors, and He (still Jehovah) will send them a Savior and a Champion, and He (this would be the Son as the Christ) will deliver them.
So then Jehovah the Son SENT Jesus the Christ to be a savior?
Mike,
The Lord of lords, the Son, agreed to be sent and was sent by the Father, the God of gods.Kathi
Kathi,You'd better check you own post again. Your first post says that the Father/Son unity SENT the Son. But your latter post says Jesus was sent ONLY by the Father.
Which is it?
What a tangled web we weave……………………
Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2011,00:04) Asked and answered. There is one ultimate Savior who is both the Father and the Son.
I was looking for clarification by your own words that you acknowledge that our Ultimate Savior SENT other saviors.I want you to CLEARY state the truth of the matter that “only Savior” means “Ultimate Savior” (which you HAVE done)……………..BUT NOT LITERALLY THE ONLY SAVIOR, PERIOD (which you have yet to CLEARLY state).
Quote (Lightenup @ July 29 2011,00:05) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2011,22:19) Quote (Lightenup @ July 27 2011,22:48) BTW, that Hebrew word for Lord, the first Lord in 'Lord of lords,' is Adonay. The word used ONLY for our deity Lord.
You are mistaken, Kathi. Ask Jack. He quoted Barnes or someone who made the same claim you did, and I showed him TWO scriptures where “adonay” was used for someone other than God in the OT.I just tried searching for that info, but couldn't find it right away. I wish t8's search would take you to the actual PAGE of the thread, instead of just showing the threads the words are in.
(And yes Ed, I did the F3 thing.
)
Mike,
I would like to see your scriptures. Can you find them, please?Kathi
Hi Kathi,In Genesis 40:1, Pharaoh is called adonai.
In Isaiah 21:8, Isaiah is called by this title.
In Psalm 136:3, the “adonai” in “Lord of lords” is the same “adonai” Pharoah is called in Gen 40:1.
The same applies with Genesis 18:3, when Abraham calls one of the three men by this title. But I know you won't consider this as an exception to the rule, for you think one of the three men WAS “God the Son” anyway.
Quote (Ed J @ July 29 2011,00:42) Hi Mike, FALSE! …you're trying to connect two different ideas together.
Other saviors does not mean other gods; THAT WAS MY POINT!
I know Moses was one and Gideon was another savior to Israel.
Not FALSE at all, Ed.If Hosea speaks of God being the ONLY Savior AND the ONLY God, and you KNOW that God is not the ONLY LITERAL SAVIOR…………….then why would you take the “God” part LITERALLY and not the “Savior” part?
The fact is that BOTH are statements of emphasis, claiming, not that God is the ONLY God and ONLY Savior, but the ULTIMATE one in both categories.
Ed, how is Jehovah the “God OF gods” if there are no other gods for Him to be the God OF?
Please DIRECTLY answer this question WITHOUT using unscriptural phrases such as “so-called gods” and “false gods”.
mike
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 29 2011,08:45) Jesus said that if He had asked His Father for legions of angels to deliver Him His Father would have given it.
Does God Almighty have to ask his own God for help, Jack?Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2011,22:50) Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ July 28 2011,11:15) The old testament “saviors” were shadows of the REAL Savior which is Jesus Christ.
Well Jack,This is exactly what I expected you and Keith to say. Just like you have to invent the phrases “so-called gods” and “false gods” when those phrases don't exist in scripture, you will now invent “shadow saviors”.
MikeAnd that is exactly how I thought you would answer. But we didn’t invent the phrase “so-called gods” for 100s of experts in Biblical Hebrew and Greek did in the following translations…
For even if there are ”so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), NKJV
There may be “so-called gods” both in heaven and on earth, and some people actually worship many gods and many lords. NLT
For even if there are ”so-called gods”, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), NIV
For although there may be ”so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— ESV
For even if there are ”so-called gods”whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, NASB
For although there may be ”so-called gods”in heaven or on earth–as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”—RSV
If after all there are ”so-called gods”, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), NET
And rightfully so because according to context it should be translated that way especially because Paul said “literally” ” THERE IS NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE. (1 Cor 8:4) Was Paul speaking literally or figuratively?
You can’t accept Paul’s point that to “others” there were idols, lords and gods but to us there is only One God. Therefore other gods were “so-called” gods by others. That is the truth of the context and it is too bad that Paul disagrees with your Henotheistic and Polytheistic views.
In those days there were Saints that were martyred for not calling “Caesar” Lord, and to the Jews and the Romans that would be an acknowledgement that he was God to them. In light of that it is no wonder Paul said Jesus is the “One Lord” and in fact clarifies that when he says no man can say that Jesus is “Lord” but by the Holy Spirit and if they confessed Jesus as Lord to the Romans that was confessing Jesus as God and denying that Ceasar was deity.Even the JW's NWT reads…
Now concerning the eating of foods offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that “there is no God but one”. 5 For even though “there are those who are “CALLED gods”,” whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 1 Cor 8:4, 5
Notice the JW's didn't say “figuratively there is no God but one”.
Mike wasn’t it you that recently made a claim that modern day translators have made strides in Greek translation because there is more available data today? So why don’t you accept these modern translations? Is it because you have an agenda?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 30 2011,13:42)
But we didn’t invent the phrase “so-called gods” for 100s of experts in Biblical Hebrew and Greek did……
So then you ADMIT those phrases WERE invented by men, and not actually IN the scriptures themselves, right?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 30 2011,13:42)
And rightfully so because according to context it should be translated that way especially because Paul said “literally” ” THERE IS NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE. (1 Cor 8:4) Was Paul speaking literally or figuratively?
Obviously Paul was speaking emphatically Keith. Because Paul never even as much as HINTED that Satan was a “so-called” or “false” god in 2 Cor 4:4…………did he?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 30 2011,13:42)
Even the JW's NWT reads…Now concerning the eating of foods offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that “there is no God but one”. 5 For even though “there are those who are “CALLED gods”,” whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 1 Cor 8:4, 5
Thank you for pointing that out to me. I hadn't really ever checked into how the NWT translated that verse, but it is good to see that, like in most scriptures, they didn't bow to the “expertise of popular belief” – but instead stayed true the the scripture itself. Btw, they only quote the word “gods”, not “called gods” as you've mistakenly quoted them. Which is as normal as me quoting “Keith” in the sentence, “There is only one person on HN named 'Keith' “. Me quoting your name in that sentence wouldn't make you a “so-called Keith” or a “false Keith”, would it?mike
Mike
I don' have much time but…
Now concerning the eating of foods offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that “there is no God but one”. 5 For even though “there are those who are “CALLED gods”,” whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 1 Cor 8:4, 5 Source
JW's say “Called gods” do you see it Mike? But then again maybe they changed it once they realized it doesn't match their doctrine!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 30 2011,15:06) Btw, they only quote the word “gods”, not “called gods” as you've mistakenly quoted them. Which is as normal as me quoting “Keith” in the sentence, “There is only one person on HN named 'Keith'
Theos/god is a “masculine noun” but “Keith is a “proper name”.See how incomplete and deceptive your example is?
Jesus shares the same nature and name as the Father! (Mtt 28:19) Get it?
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 31 2011,02:58) Quote (Ed J @ July 29 2011,00:42) Hi Mike, FALSE! …you're trying to connect two different ideas together.
Other saviors does not mean other gods; THAT WAS MY POINT!
I know Moses was one and Gideon was another savior to Israel.
Not FALSE at all, Ed.(1) If Hosea speaks of God being the ONLY Savior AND the ONLY God, and you KNOW that God is not the ONLY LITERAL SAVIOR…………….(2) then why would you take the “God” part LITERALLY and not the “Savior” part?
(3)The fact is that BOTH are statements of emphasis, claiming, not that God is the ONLY God and ONLY Savior, but the ULTIMATE one in both categories.
Ed, how is Jehovah the “God OF gods” (4)if there are no other gods for Him to be the God OF?
(5)Please DIRECTLY answer this question WITHOUT using unscriptural phrases such as “so-called gods” and “false gods”.
mike
Hi Mike,Thanks for re-wording your question!
1) In all those insistence's, YHVH is “The Savior” behind the saving.
2) Because modern English differs from the ancient Hebrew.
The AKJV Bible has “KING of Kings” and “LORD of Lords”
to fix the misleading Hebrew word of אלהים ĔL-ō-Hêêm.3) False! …see point #2.
4) That (and Psalm 82:6) means GOD is Father to all his children;
THERE ARE NO OTHER gods! (see Isaiah 44:8 / Isaiah 45:5 / Isaiah 45:14)5) I don't see a question in point #5?
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Lightenup @ July 30 2011,00:00) Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 28 2011,22:30) Quote (Lightenup @ July 27 2011,23:20) Pierre,
Here is your scripture:See my notes in parenthesis:
Isaiah 19:20
It will become a sign and a witness to the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt; for they will cry to the LORD (Jehovah our God, the unity of the Father and the Son) because of oppressors, and He (still Jehovah) will send them a Savior and a Champion, and He (this would be the Son as the Christ) will deliver them.
So then Jehovah the Son SENT Jesus the Christ to be a savior?
Mike,
The Lord of lords, the Son, agreed to be sent and was sent by the Father, the God of gods.Kathi
Kathihe was a very subdue Lord of lords right ?
what was his glory ,you say ?
Pierre
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 30 2011,15:15) Mike I don' have much time but…
Now concerning the eating of foods offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that “there is no God but one”. 5 For even though “there are those who are “CALLED gods”,” whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 1 Cor 8:4, 5 Source
JW's say “Called gods” do you see it Mike? But then again maybe they changed it once they realized it doesn't match their doctrine!
Keith,Or maybe it is YOU who just can't read right. Check your own link again, and tell me if you quoted the right WORD (as in “gods” – NOT “called gods”).
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