Titus 2:13, 14 Proof that Jesus is The Saviour&#33;

Participant

Does anybody here see what WJ is doing with regard to my posts to him?

I provide the evidence there is only ONE called “The Savior”(117), “God The Father”(117).
But instead of WJ commenting on my post, he attempts to Dr. it up
to appear that I say there is (according to WJ) two saviors?

When actuality it is he that is doing the very thing he says about me without an explanation as to why (as I have done),
he does this by attempting to separate YHVH from his “HolySpirit” and then claim they are instead a three-in-one savior?
Systems of religion and traditions of men communicate distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.

Can you, WJ, explain why you want us all to buy into this belief of yours?
Here again is my explanation, which WJ has continually ignored so far…

Jesus’ authentic Name [יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă has a direct connection to GOD’s name [יה]
in that YÄ is the first part of Jesus’ “REAL” name. GOD’s name (YÄ) is not vocalized in
the English translation of the name Jesus and therefore misses the precise exactness
and direct authentic connection to God’s Hebrew name [יה] YÄ. Jesus’ Name in Hebrew
יהשוע means: (“YÄ is salvation” [יה]+[ישע]=[יהשוע]) the salvation of [GOD the Father=117].
[יהשוע] “Jesus” REAL name authentically establishes [יהוה] “JEHOVAH” as the highest Name. (Psalm 83:18)

(Phil. 2:9,11: Wherefore [Holy Spirit] has highly exalted [Jesus] giving Him a name which
is above every name, to the glory of [GOD The Father=117].) Neither is there salvation
in any other name: for there is no other name given among men (יהשוע), whereby we must
be saved. (Acts 4:12) People speaking fluent Hebrew know that in essence, [יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă
means: “YÄ is Savior”. The Name of [GOD=26] is [יהוה=26] spoken as [YÄ=26]; and “YÄ-hä-vā”!

“The Savior”=117 is “GOD The Father”=117, (117=“יהוה האלהים” YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL- ō-Hêêm)!
117=“יהוה האלהים” is “The Savior”=117 to all who walk the ground! “JEHOVAH GOD”; and there is ‘NO’ other! (Isaiah 43:11)

Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH! (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org …(Eccl.9:12-16)

July 5, 2011 at 6:10 pm#251048

Participant

Hi All

Does anybody here see what Ed is doing with regard to my posts to him?

In answer to my question…

It is real simple, is Jesus your Savior or not?

Ed said…

Quote (Ed J @ June 30 2011,20:29)

Of course! …what a great salvation our savior Jesus Christ has wrought for us!

So once again I will post my response because Ed says “Jesus is his savior” yet he says the Father is “The Savior”.

Quote (Ed J @ July 01 2011,19:09)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 02 2011,01:25)

Quote (Ed J @ June 30 2011,20:29)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 01 2011,10:52)

But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel”: 2 Tim 1:10

It is real simple, is Jesus your Savior or not?

Hi WJ,

Of course! …what a great salvation our savior Jesus Christ has wrought for us!

Thanks for answering. Then if Jesus is your “Savior” and he is not “One God” with the Father and “One Savior” with the Father then that means you have 2 saviors.

So how does your answer agree with this quote you made…

Quote (Ed J @ June 30 2011,20:29)

And He is “The Savior” to all who walk the ground! “JEHOVAH GOD”; and there is ‘NO’ other! (Isaiah 43:11)

Hi WJ,

You clipped the answer to that question, and then ask it as if I didn't already address your point.
… please read it this time and fell free to comment on this “Bible Truth”(117).

I didn't clip anything but your answer to my big bolded question that “Jesus is your savior” yet you claim the Father is “The Savior”. Read your own post for it is clear to see by all that you are claiming you have 2 saviors!

Didn't you say this…

Quote (Ed J @ June 27 2011,16:56)

“God The Father” (JEHOVAH) is “The Savior”(=117) and “The Owner”.
Jesus (יהשוע: YÄ-shü-ă) is God's Son, owner and savior.

So by your own words you claim…

Jehovah is “The Savior” and “The Owner”.

Then you claim…

Jesus is “owner” and “savior”.

Yet you contradict yourself when you say…

Quote (Ed J @ June 30 2011,20:29)

And He is “The Savior” to all who walk the ground! “JEHOVAH GOD”; and there is ‘NO’ other! (Isaiah 43:11)

So all of his numerical mumbo jumbo is just a smoke screen to cover up his own confession that he has 2 saviors.

July 5, 2011 at 7:04 pm#251054

Participant

Hi WJ,

Your funny. :laugh: :laugh:
You keep repeating the same old stuff.

I keep presenting more and more Scriptures;
and what you do? You keep ignoring them; why?
Will you address this verse? I want to hear your 'spin' on it…

Jer.14:8-9 O the hope of Israel, “the savior” thereof in time of trouble,
why shouldest thou be as a stranger in the land, and as a wayfaring man that turneth aside
to tarry for a night? Why shouldest thou be as a man astonied, as a mighty man that
cannot save? yet thou, O LORD, in the midst of us, and we are called by thy name; leave us not.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

July 5, 2011 at 7:15 pm#251057

Participant

Hi WJ,

We mustn't forget these verses either (please comment on them as well)…

2Cor.5:19 To wit, that [JEHOVAH GOD] was in Christ, reconciling
the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and
hath committed unto us the word(HolySpirit) of reconciliation.
Eph.4:4-6 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord,
one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who
is above all, and through all, and in you all.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

July 5, 2011 at 8:54 pm#251064

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 04 2011,18:31)

Hi Keith,

Yes, I apparently did miss your response, though I'm not sure how I could have possibly missed all that red type!

Let me rephrase my question, for I was responding to Kathi's mention of Rev 3:14 when I asked it:

Keith, WHOSE creation does REVELATION 3:14 say Jesus is the ruler/beginning of?

Mike

Of course you always have to rephrase your questions when a valid answer is given to you that you can’t dispute. So now what you have done is to isolate a passage of scripture from the rest of the scriptures to prove your false teaching that Jesus is not “theos/god”.

Your interpretation of Revelation 3 :14 is just a smoke screen because the Greek word “archē” can also be translated “the origin or originator of the creation of God”.

The NET translation renders it…

“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write the following: “This is the solemn pronouncement of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, “the originator of God’s creation”:

This is why they translated it that way…

Or “the beginning of God’s creation”; or “the ruler of God’s creation.” From a linguistic standpoint all three meanings for ἀρχή (arch) are possible. The term is well attested in both LXX (Gen 40:13, 21; 41:13) and intertestamental Jewish literature (2 Macc 4:10, 50) as meaning “ruler, authority” (BDAG 138 s.v. 6). Some have connected this passage to Paul’s statements in Col 1:15, 18 which describe Christ as ἀρχή and πρωτότοκος (prwtotoko”; e.g., see R. H. Mounce, Revelation [NICNT], 124) but the term ἀρχή has been understood as either “beginning” or “ruler” in that passage as well. The most compelling connection is to be found in the prologue to John’s Gospel (1:2-4) where the λόγος (logos) is said to be “in the beginning (ἀρχή) with God,” a temporal reference connected with creation, and then v. 3 states that “all things were made through him.” The connection with the original creation suggests the meaning “originator” for ἀρχή here. BDAG 138 s.v. 3 gives the meaning “the first cause” for the word in Rev 3:14, a term that is too philosophical for the general reader, so the translation “originator” was used instead. BDAG also notes, “but the mng. beginning = ‘first created’ is linguistically probable (s. above 1b and Job 40:19; also CBurney, Christ as the ᾿Αρχή of Creation: JTS 27, 1926, 160-77).” Such a meaning is unlikely here, however, since the connections described above are much more probable. NET

The fact that John may be distinguishing between God the Father and God the Son in no way means Jesus is not “God” like the Father.

For instance Mike if the scripture said “the Father is the beginning or originator of the creation of Jesus (Col 1:16, 17)”, would that mean that the Father is not God? Is the Father also not the “beginning, ruler, or origin of the creation of God? The creation is “Of” Jesus also isn't it?

Your doctrine is little different from the “Unitarians” that claim all things were made by God the Father through Jesus by being just a thought or plan since to you he had no active role in the creation of all things but is just a funnel. He might as well just be a thought and plan that God the Father made all things through.

So in other words in Revelation 3:14 John could be saying the creation belongs to Jesus and he is the God of the creation or he could be making the distinction between the Father and the Son who both are the “origin, originator, or ruler of the creation of God. That would also agree with the scripture you ignored when you reworded your question…

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. Col 1:16, 17

Do you see it Mike? The creation was by Jesus and for Jesus, and not only that but by Jesus all things consist, so that means Jesus is also the originator and owner of it.

Would anyone or anything other than God rule the creation of God? Can anyone but God hold all things together since by Jesus all things consist. (Col 1:17)

John some 20 years later in his prologue in the book of John states that the Word that was with God and was God was the source/origin by which all things came into being and he clarifies it by saying…

”…without him was not any thing made that was made.”

Once again that makes Jesus as well as the Father the Source/origin of all things since nothing came into existence without Jesus. In fact once again, nothing came into being without the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. Read Genesis 1.

July 5, 2011 at 8:55 pm#251065

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 04 2011,18:31)

Your “Jesus created” scriptures are a matter of translating the word “dia” as “by” instead of “through”.

Hi mike

Of course when it fits your doctrine, right? It doesn’t matter if you translate the word “dia” as “by” or “through”. That argument has been debunked in “The anti-Jesus is God fallacies” thread because if something comes through someone then that something is also coming from the one that it is coming through. Now read that real slow and you might be able to comprehend it.

I can say all things come to us from Jesus through the Father God. Does that mean the Father is not God?

For from him and ”through (dia) him” and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen. Rom 11:36

As you see Paul uses the same language here for the Father God as he does in 1 Cor 8:6 for Jesus.

Once again, since everything comes to us from the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit then I can also say that all things come to us through the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. Nothing can come to us through someone unless it is coming from the one it is coming through. Your theology isolates Jesus as being the one from which all things come to us. Your theology makes Jesus some sort of funnel or empty vessel that the Father merely works through. Your theology denys Jesus own words when he says “he also does the works that he sees his Father do”. (John 5:19, 26) Your theology denies over 150 scriptures that tell us Jesus is the source of all things to the creation. Here is just a few…

Grace and peace to you ”from God our Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ”. 1 Cor 1:3

Grace be to you and peace ”from God our Father, AND from the Lord Jesus Christ”. 2 Cor 1:2

To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, ”from God our Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ”. Col 1:2

Does “Grace”, “Mercy” and “Peace” come from Jesus Christ or not?
Your theology denies that all things are in Jesus own hands.

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Matt 28:18

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him]. Matt 11:27

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him. Luke 10:22

Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God; John 13:3
All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. John 15:16

Your theology says that “all things” are not “literally” in Jesus hands like when you said…

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 08 2011,14:49)

No Keith, it is YOU who has “lost the debate” by insisting “only true God” must be taken literally

No Mike, stop sticking your head in the sand, for the above scriptures clearly state all things belong to Jesus and are in his own hands.

July 5, 2011 at 8:55 pm#251066

Participant

Hi Mike

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 04 2011,18:31)

But 1 Cor 8:6 makes it clear by contrast that God is who things are BY while Jesus is who things are THROUGH.

Don’t forget to match that scripture with Romans 11:36 and explain to us how all things can come through someone and not be coming from that someone that it is coming through including our life, light, wisdom, power, grace, peace, mercy and love which according to the scripture comes from Jesus also.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 04 2011,18:31)

The prayer in Acts 4 also makes it unmistakeably clear who exactly created ALL THINGS, and Jesus' rank in comparison TO that ONE. (I believe Jesus is that One's SERVANT)

Once again you are using “selective theology” or “eisegesis” and not interpreting the scripture in context of the entire Bible. Your interpretation of the verse contradicts the scriptures that state all things including judgment has been given to Jesus in the scriptures above, not to mention 1 Cor 15:24-28 which clearly states Jesus has not yet subjected himself or the Kingdom to the Father. Just because the scripture makes a distinction between God the Father and Jesus does not mean Jesus is not God or the creator no more than a builder of an house is not the creator just as the owner. But not only does the scripture tell us all things were made by/through Jesus but that it was made “for him” and by him all things consist. Col 1:16, 17

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 04 2011,18:31)

As for my second question: If there isn't a scripture that says Jesus is the source of all things, you shouldn't claim that he is. It is similar to you claiming Jesus has all POWER, when the word means AUTHORITY.

But you claim the Father is the “source” of all things and you do not have a scripture for that do you? You are just making another weak straw man argument to make the word of God of none effect. If one has all authority then he has all power. Besides you are misleading because the Greek word for “power” is “exousia” which also means;

1) power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases
a) leave or permission
2) physical and mental power
a) the ability or strength with which one is endued, which he either possesses or exercises
3) the power of authority (influence) and of right (privilege)
4) the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed)

And Jesus has all of it, not to mention once again you are denying Jesus own words when he said…

”All things that the Father hath are mine”:

And…

All things are delivered unto me of my Father:

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 04 2011,18:31)

Nor can you dissuade me from pointing out that everything Jesus DOES have he has only because it was GIVEN TO HIM by his God – just like all of us.

Nothing can persuade you that Jesus has it all including his own words. You serve a Jesus that is still in the flesh and not the “Sovereign”, “All Powerful” Jesus of the Bible.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 04 2011,18:31)

And you certainly can't dissuade me by bringing up John 1:1, which we both know calls Jesus a god who was with THE God.

Yes of course you believe in, bow down to, and serve another “theos\god” when the scriptures teach there is “only one theos/god” that we believe in, serve and bow down too.

Your theology has “a theos\god” before the “one theos\god” when the scriptures clearly speak against having other “theos\gods that we serve and bow down too.

Thou shalt have “no other gods” (elohiym) BEFORE ME. Exod 20:3

And…

“But I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt. “You shall acknowledge no God ('elohiym) but me, no Savior except me”. Hosea 13:4

And…

…and that “there is none other God (theos) but one”. 1 Cor 8:4

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 04 2011,18:31)

And finally, YES! I do still stand by my statement that all things come FROM the hands of God and THROUGH the hands of Jesus.

But according to you the Father didn’t give anything into Jesus hands. You are only blowing hot air by saying that all things comes “through” Jesus own hands yet they are not coming from Jesus own hands. It is truly sad that you do not believe Jesus is the source of your salvation, eternal life, faith, grace, mercy and peace. When the scriptures tell us all those things come from Jesus.

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 04 2011,18:31)

Now, I asked you two simple questions. You have answered one by acknowledging that no scripture says Jesus is the source of all things.

Stop distorting the truth Mike. I said that there are no scriptures that say the Father is the source of all things. Yet you believe he is, don’t you? So read the over 150 scriptures I posted in the “Anti-Jesus is God fallacies” thread and see for yourself that all things come to us from Jesus own hands

I have constantly said Jesus is the “source of all things to the creation”, yet you have to misrepresent me because that is your way isn’t it Mike?

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 04 2011,18:31)

Please answer the other one I've clarified above.

I already have answered your reworded question with the same answer!

July 5, 2011 at 9:16 pm#251068

Participant

Good verses. So how do those verses contradict Jesus being “The Savior” of the world?

July 5, 2011 at 9:29 pm#251070

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 06 2011,08:16)

Good verses. So how do those verses contradict Jesus being “The Savior” of the world?

Hi WJ,

I really did not think you were going to oppose clear and concise Scriptures.
All those verses do clearly show “God The Father”(117) is “The Savior”(117).
It's clear and concise “Bible Truth”(117); do you dispute “God's Truths”?
“God saved” the world through his “Christ”. (John 3:16 / 2Cor.5:19)

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

July 5, 2011 at 10:00 pm#251071

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ July 05 2011,16:29)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 06 2011,08:16)

Good verses. So how do those verses contradict Jesus being “The Savior” of the world?

Hi WJ,

The scriptures also claim Jesus is in the Father and is “purifying UNTO HIMSELF” a peculiar people”. So your point that God was in Christ doesn't negate Jesus being in the Father and is also “The Savior”

This scripture says “Jesus” saved us with his own life, power and blood…

while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior”, Jesus Christ, “WHO GAVE HIMSELF“ for us, that ”THAT HE” might redeem us from all iniquity, and ”purify UNTO HIMSELF a peculiar people, zealous of good works”. Tit 2:13, 14

That means Jesus is “The Savior” of the world.

So that means the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are “The Savior” of the world since you can't have the one without the other.

Why are you trying to seperate the Father from Jesus?

The NT Bible only teaches there is “One God” and “One Savior”. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are One!

July 5, 2011 at 11:05 pm#251073

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 06 2011,09:00)

Quote (Ed J @ July 05 2011,16:29)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 06 2011,08:16)

Good verses. So how do those verses contradict Jesus being “The Savior” of the world?

Hi WJ,

This scripture says “Jesus” saved us with his own life, power and blood…

That means Jesus is “The Savior” of the world.

So that means the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are “The Savior” of the world since you can't have the one without the other.

Why are you trying to seperate the Father from Jesus?

The NT Bible only teaches there is “One God” and “One Savior”. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are One!

Hi WJ,

I'm not trying to separate Jesus from YHVH, I'm simply spelling out their different functions.
It is you who seems to want to separate YHVH into a separate person,
and then add him back as a third to YHVH and his Son.

Titus 2:13-14 is referring to YHVH and his Son…

Titus 2:13-14 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God(YHVH: See Isaiah 64:5)
and our Savior Jesus Christ(a personal Pentecost: See John 14:23 & Hebrews 9:28); Who(Jesus) gave himself for us, that
he(YHVH) might redeem us(See: Isaiah 47:4) from all iniquity, and purify unto himself(YHVH) a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

The Bible doesn't say something in one verse and something else in another?
YOU NEED ONLY TO COMPARE Titus 2:13-14 DIRECTLY with 2Cor.5:19.
(NOTE: I have provided verse cross-references for you.)

To wit, that (YHVH)God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself(YHVH),
not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us
(HolySpirit)”The Word” of reconciliation. (2Cor.5:19)
Do you have anything to say concerning this?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

July 6, 2011 at 3:11 am#251098

terraricca

Participant

Quote

No Mike, stop sticking your head in the sand, for the above scriptures clearly state all things belong to Jesus and are in his own hands.

why is then that Jesus turn all things to his father and submit to him ,so that all is of God the father??

Pierre

July 6, 2011 at 3:21 am#251101

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ July 04 2011,23:21)

Solomon was considered David's servant yet Solomon was David's son and King of Israel like David was. So, your argument about one being called a servant and therefore not equal is empty.

Is it? Was Solomon still the servant of David after he was exalted to king? Because Jesus is still the servant of his God, even after his exaltation to highest position available to any creation – the right hand of HIS OWN GOD.

Malachi 1:6
“A son honors his father, and a servant his master. If I am a father, where is the honor due me? If I am a master, where is the respect due me?” says the LORD Almighty.

Jesus is both a son AND a servant to the One who said these words, Kathi. Jesus shows honor to his Father and respect to his Master. His Father and Master are one and the same – Jehovah Almighty.

Luke 12:47
“That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows.
Hmmmm…………..that doesn't sound like “equality” to me. Does it to you?

Quote (Lightenup @ July 04 2011,23:21)

Talking about the Son of God:
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him.

The word “BY” in the first part is rightfully translated as “THROUGH”, as in the last part. We know the word “dia” could mean either, so we must look to 1 Cor 8:6 to see which it should be. In that scripture, Paul clearly distinguishes the One FROM whom all things are as someone OTHER THAN the one THROUGH whom all things are.

We cannot faithfully go back later and use a definition of a word that would make one scripture contradict many other ones. So since the word could be “through” OR it could be “by”, we have to consider if either of those translations would contradict other scriptures. And the “by” translation does this. Therefore, since scripture cannot be broken, Paul's intent in Col 1:16 was “through”.

And as your buddy Tertullian says, “He who makes is One, and he THROUGH WHOM the thing is made is another.” God made, Kathi. He did that THROUGH Jesus, who is “another”.

Quote (Lightenup @ July 04 2011,23:21)

In Acts 4 you can see the one God (who includes the Father and the Son as in Deuteronomy) and then the one they knew as the Christ…the Son according to the flesh. The Son according to His humanity is included in the one God that created the world.

This one is perfect for the Bizzaro thread! And just HOW do you KNOW this, Kathi? Verse 24 says they prayed to “GOD”, and verse 30 says they prayed THROUGH God's Holy Servant Jesus.

So exactly how do support the claim you just made? Oh that's right, you're not too big on scriptural support these days. You prefer to just claim the things you've imagined as if they are facts – even when the very scriptures refute them.

Quote (Lightenup @ July 04 2011,23:21)

Also, the Lamb of God was the Son according to His humanity but not separate from His divinity.

I asked if the Lamb of God was God the Father. Would you answer the question directly?

July 6, 2011 at 3:33 am#251105

Blocked

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 05 2011,14:54)

No Keith. 3:14 has Jesus saying he is the [something] of the creation BY GOD. WHY would he distinguish “GOD” as someone OTHER THAN himself?

And about Col 1:16, read my most recent response to Kathi.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 05 2011,14:54)

Would anyone or anything other than God rule the creation of God?

Are you kidding me? Did not DAVID rule over the creation of God? Doesn't makind in general rule over the animals? We KNOW from scripture that the God OF Jesus made him both Lord and Christ. See Keith? Our ONE true God MADE Jesus His ANOINTED ONE. That same God GRANTED Jesus authority to rule His creation for Him. And there is also the very REAL possibility that Jesus is saying he is the BEGINNING of the creation of God – meaning “the first thing God ever created”.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 05 2011,14:54)

Once again that makes Jesus as well as the Father the Source/origin of all things since nothing came into existence without Jesus.

Hmmmmm…………….what does the prayer in Acts 4 say about it, Keith?

July 6, 2011 at 3:46 am#251107

Blocked

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 05 2011,14:55)

That argument has been debunked in “The anti-Jesus is God fallacies” thread because if something comes through someone then that something is also coming from the one that it is coming through.

He who makes is One, and he THROUGH WHOM the thing is made is another. – Tertullian

You can PRETEND these words are not true, Keith. After all, you PRETEND all kinds of nonsense in an effort to support your comically flawed, man-made doctrine. But nonetheless, no matter what you pretend, the words of Tertullian are basic common sense to those of us who aren't blinded by the god of this age.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 05 2011,14:55)

For from him and ”through (dia) him” and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen. Rom 11:36

OR………………….“For FROM Him and BY Him and TO Him are all things.”

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 05 2011,14:55)

No Mike, stop sticking your head in the sand, for the above scriptures clearly state all things belong to Jesus and are in his own hands.

No Keith, what scripture clearly states is that anything and everything Jesus has at all was a GIFT to him FROM his own God, who Jesus says is also OUR God.

I noticed you didn't post any of the scriptures that say, “Grace and peace from the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ”, did you?

Keith, you are truly blinded if you think for one second that God Almighty has a God of his own.

July 6, 2011 at 4:01 am#251108

Lightenup

Participant

Mike,
I said:

Quote

I meant to say “the Son according to His divinity is included in the one God that created the world. Sorry.

The Lamb of God was not God the Father, the lamb was the man who was the Messiah.

I don't know why you mention what Tertullian says. Most people realize that there are two persons spoken of in 1 Cor 8:6. Both were part of creating and both together make up Jehovah our God. Jehovah our God is God of gods (the Father) and Lord of lords (the Son).

As far as Solomon goes I'm sure that Solomon did not expect David to now serve him when he became king but continued to serve his father. A good son would always serve his father. I would expect any good son to serve their father even if they were the president or king, etc. Jesus was and is the perfect son ALWAYS ready to serve His Father. Being His Father's servant/son doesn't make Him less than the Father in nature.

In regards to Acts 4, the one being referred to as the Lord would be Jehovah our God because they credit Him with creation and Deutoronomy tells us who Jehovah our God is…the God of gods (the Father) and the Lord of lords (the Son). The man who was the true Messiah did not exist before creation and was not the one they would refer to as the Lord who created. But it was by the man who was the true Messiah that was God, as the Son, incarnated with the man and called Jesus that made it possible for them to perform miracles. This chapter in Acts 4 is about the Messiah Jesus, the one that they knew as a divine man and who they did miracles through His name.

I have already shown you scripture in Deuteronomy. And you can see that the Jesus that is spoken about was the Son as the Messiah that was crucified in Acts 4. The Messiah is distinct from the God of gods and Lord of lords in a sense that the Lord of lords that created had not yet become the Messiah at the time of creation. The people were praying through the Messiah.

psalm 136:1 Give thanks to Jehovah, for He is good, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 2 Give thanks to the God of gods, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 3 [/B]Give thanks to the Lord of lords, For His lovingkindness is everlasting.[/B] 4 To Him who alone does great wonders, For His lovingkindness is everlasting ; 5 To Him who made the heavens with skill, For His lovingkindness is everlasting ; 6 To Him who spread out the earth above the waters, For His lovingkindness is everlasting ; 7 To Him who made the great lights, For His lovingkindness is everlasting : 8 The sun to rule by day, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 9 The moon and stars to rule by night, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 10 To Him who smote the Egyptians in their firstborn, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 11 And brought Israel out from their midst, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 12 With a strong hand and an outstretched arm, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 13 To Him who divided the Red Sea asunder, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 14 And made Israel pass through the midst of it, For His lovingkindness is everlasting ; 15 But He overthrew Pharaoh and his army in the Red Sea, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 16 To Him who led His people through the wilderness, For His lovingkindness is everlasting ; 17 To Him who smote great kings, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 18 And slew mighty kings, For His lovingkindness is everlasting : 19 Sihon, king of the Amorites, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 20 And Og, king of Bashan, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 21 And gave their land as a heritage, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 22 Even a heritage to Israel His servant, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 23 Who remembered us in our low estate, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 24 And has rescued us from our adversaries, For His lovingkindness is everlasting ; 25 Who gives food to all flesh, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 26 Give thanks to the God of heaven, For His lovingkindness is everlasting.

Deut 10:12 “Now, Israel, what does Jehovah your God require from you, but to fear Jehovah your God, to walk in all His ways and love Him, and to serve Jehovah your God with all your heart and with all your soul, 13 and to keep Jehovah's commandments and His statutes which I am commanding you today for your good ? 14 “Behold, to Jehovah your God belong heaven and the highest heavens, the earth and all that is in it. 15 “Yet on your fathers did Jehovah set His affection to love them, and He chose their descendants after them, even you above all peoples, as it is this day. 16 “So circumcise your heart, and stiffen your neck no longer. 17 “For Jehovah your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe. 18

July 6, 2011 at 4:08 am#251109

Blocked

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 05 2011,14:55)

Your interpretation of the [prayer in Acts 4] contradicts the scriptures that state all things including judgment has been given to Jesus

What does God later GIVING things to Jesus have to do with Jesus creating? Is that your BEST rebuttal of Acts 4?

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 05 2011,14:55)

But you claim the Father is the “source” of all things and you do not have a scripture for that do you?

How about 1 Cor 8:6 and the Romans one you keep talking about? Yes Keith, there are MANY scriptures that make it abundantly clear that Jehovah is the source of all things. There are, however, no scriptures that say this about Jesus – so stop claiming what is not in scripture as if it is. You can't just claim your wishes as if they are scripturally supported when they're not………….or else I'll start calling you “Kathi”.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 05 2011,14:55)

Besides you are misleading because the Greek word for “power” is “exousia” which also means;

For two years you and Jack have been saying “all power AND authority”, and I just assumed you guys were quoting a real scripture! I'll know not to make that mistake again!

Keith, power OF CHOICE is “authority”, not physical POWER. But even so, make a choice. Has Jesus been GIVEN power BY HIS GOD, or authority? The one word cannot be construed to mean both.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 05 2011,14:55)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ July 04 2011,18:31)

Nor can you dissuade me from pointing out that everything Jesus DOES have he has only because it was GIVEN TO HIM by his God – just like all of us.

Nothing can persuade you that Jesus has it all including his own words. You serve a Jesus that is still in the flesh and not the “Sovereign”, “All Powerful” Jesus of the Bible.

What? Look at what I said, and then look at how you responded. I didn't say Jesus doesn't have things. I said that everything Jesus DOES have was a GIFT from his God.

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 05 2011,14:55)

the scriptures teach there is “only one theos/god” that we believe in, serve and bow down too.

Really? WHO exactly do the scriptures say that one IS?

July 6, 2011 at 4:18 am#251110

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ July 05 2011,22:01)

The Lamb of God was not God the Father, the lamb was the man who was the Messiah.

I agree. So how do you explain these two scriptures?

Revelation 15:3
and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb: “Great and marvelous are your deeds, Lord God Almighty. Just and true are your ways, King of the ages.

Revelation 21:22
I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

Both of these scriptures list the Lamb as someone OTHER THAN “Lord God ALMIGHTY”. So if, according to YOU, the Lamb is Jesus, but NOT separated from his divinity, then the Father must be ALMIGHTY all by Himself, right?

The rest of your post was mindless fluff that you've made up, and not worthy of scriptural discussion, nor of a response from me.

July 6, 2011 at 8:09 pm#251183

Lightenup

Participant

Mike,
The Messiah (the Lamb) according to the human nature would be who the song is 'of.' The Lord God Almighty would be the ONE Jehovah our God who is both God of gods (the Father) and Lord of lords (the Son).

Without the work of the Lamb there would be no need of a temple. The Lord God Almighty and the existence of and victory of the Lamb, is what allows us to worship and our worship is in the Lord God Almighty, (the Father and the Son) and the Lamb, (the human nature of the Son).

July 7, 2011 at 3:58 am#251209