- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Hi All
Titus 2:13, 14 is proof that Jesus is One God and One Saviour with the Father and the Holy Spirit because the scriptures clearly teach there is “Only One True God” and “One Saviour”
So since this discussion has started between t8 and I in a thread that is off topic, I thought I would bring it here.
WJ
Quote (t8 @ June 23 2011,18:19) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 24 2011,09:31) How many Saviors do you have?
YHWH saved me through Jesus Christ.YHWH is the true saviour. Therefore one saviour who uses multiple agencies.
t8First of all does that mean that Jesus is not “The True Saviour”? Assuming that you believe YHVH exclusively means the Father, then you are clearly contradicting this verse…
while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior”, Jesus Christ, “WHO GAVE HIMSELF“ for us, that ”that HE might redeem us” from all iniquity, and ”purify UNTO HIMSELF a peculiar people, zealous of good works”. Tit 2:13, 14
There is no mention of the Father here…words like “WHO GAVE HIMSELF“, ”That HE” might redeem us from all iniquity, and ”purify UNTO HIMSELF” clearly contradicts your agency claim.
Moses and all the rest were “agents” of salvation but were never the “Source” of salvation.
You can create all those smoke screens and diversions all you want but you cannot hide the fact that Jesus Christ is “The Saviour” of all mankind not by proxy, and that the scriptures clearly say there is “Only One Saviour”!
Quote (t8 @ June 23 2011,18:19) Agencies = Jesus who died for me, the evangelist who led me to faith, angels who save me from calamities.
Oh I see, so now angels and the one who led you to Christ are your Saviours also? Puke!!!How is it that you deny these clear scriptures that say Jesus Christ is our Saviour?
Today in the town of David ”a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ” the Lord. Luke 2:11
They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is ”the Savior of the world”.” John 4:42
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and ”he is the Saviour of the body”. Eph 5:23
For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for ”the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ”: Who (Jesus) shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, ”according to the working whereby “HE” (Jesus) is able even to subdue all things unto himself”. Phil 3:20, 21
Can you see it t8? That Jesus by his own power is able to not only save our soul and spirit but also our bodies, and not only that but Jesus by his own power is able to subdue all things unto himself. If Jesus is not God then Paul speaks blasphemous words when he says he will subdue all things unto himself and not to the Father. But the truth is “The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are One God and One Saviour because you can’t have one without the other.
Are you to proud to admit the truth that Jesus is the “SOURCE” of salvation to all mankind?
Until you accept and believe all the scriptures instead of your selective theology that doesn’t see the big picture of scriptures, then your theology will always be contradictory to the scriptures and full of big gaping holes.
This is good, and pleases ”God our Savior”, 1 Tim 2:3
(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in ”the living God, who is the Savior of all men”, and especially of those who believe. 1 Tim 4:10
Paul doesn’t say “God our Saviours”, does he? Then in the next epistle to Timothy he says…
but it has now been revealed through ”the appearing of our Savior, (not our Saviors) Christ Jesus”, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 2 Tim 1:10
Who has destroyed death and brought life and immortality? Hello, it is Jesus the source of everything to the creation. …Please refer to the “Anti-Jesus is God fallacies” thread!
So you see, here is how it goes, Trinitarians can say “Our theos/God is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit”, but the Henotheist and Polytheist say “Our theos/gods are the Father and the Son, and that the Holy Spirit is not a person.
Trinitarians say “Our theos/god is our Saviour”, but the Henotheist and the Polytheist say “Our theos/gods are our Saviours!
The first is scriptural and the latter is not!
WJ
Quote (t8 @ June 23 2011,18:19) How many Saviors do you have? Let me answer your own question.
You have three according to your doctrine.
The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Not true, because the difference is Trinitarians believe “They are our theos/god” and “They are our Saviour” because you cannot have the “One” without the other, for they are “One”.But your theology says “I have 2 theos/gods and 2 saviours (or many saviours) for with your own mouth you said…
Quote (t8 @ June 23 2011,18:19) Agencies = Jesus who died for me, the evangelist who led me to faith, angels who save me from calamities.
Meaning more than one Saviour and…Quote (t8 @ June 14 2011,17:49) Actually I believe that Jesus is theos/god.
Meaning more than one “theos/god. Remember I was the one that asked the question first and so it is that you say you have more than one theos/god and in fact you believe in many “theos/gods” and in many “saviours” even though the scriptures clearly teach there is only “one true theos/god and one saviour.Quote (t8 @ June 14 2011,17:49) You also have to admit to other agencies such as the person who preached the gospel to you, and angels who save you and protect you from physical calamities.
But none of them are called “The Saviour of the world” and none of them gave their own life and blood. And surely none of them are the “Source” of our salvation and life! But Jesus is.Quote (t8 @ June 23 2011,18:19) You have 3 saviours, they are Father, Son, Spirit. So you have saviours (plural).
No not at all, because my theology says they are “One theos/god” and “One saviour” because you cannot have salvation or theos/god without the three.Quote (t8 @ June 23 2011,18:19) Let's hear you say that you have saviours, because your idea of God is THEM and THEY.
Remember that we came to that fair, reasonable, and mutual agreement.
I have said “they are my theos/god” and “they are my saviour” as the scriptures teach.It is you that says “they are my theos/gods” and “they are my saviours”.
Quote (t8 @ June 23 2011,18:19) It is best to use English grammar correctly isn't it?
Of course but my grammar is based on the scriptures and yours is not.Quote (t8 @ June 23 2011,18:19) But for US, there is one God the Father, (HIM).
Ha Ha, stop playing the word games with the word “theos/god”, because to you it is not one theos/god. Remember you said…Quote (t8 @ June 14 2011,17:49) Actually I believe that Jesus is theos/god.
Meaning that you have more than one “theos/god.Quote (t8 @ June 23 2011,18:19)
And for you, there is one God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, (THEY).
True! That is scriptural for they are “One” because you can’t have “One” without the other, and the scriptures say there is only one true god and one saviour.
WJ
WJ
Tit 2:13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God ,and Savior Jesus Christ,
Tit 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God’s elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
2Ti 4:1 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge:
2Ti 4:2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desiresare you sure that Paul does not make a clear distinction between who is God and Christ ? Tit 1:4 To Titus, my true son in our common faith:
Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.
or is his words in verses 2Tim 4;3 apply to your comments, I made it bold.
Pierre
Repeatedly the Scriptures refer to God as Savior.
At Isaiah 43:11 God even says: “Besides me there is no savior.”
Since Jesus is also referred to as Savior, are God and Jesus the same? Not at all.
Titus 1:3, 4 speaks of “God our Savior,” and then of both “God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.” So, both are saviors.
Jude 25 shows the relationship, saying: “God, our Savior THROUGH Jesus Christ our Lord.”
(See also Acts 13:23.)At Judges 3:9, the same Hebrew word (moh‧shi′a‛, rendered “savior” or “deliverer”) that is used at Isaiah 43:11 is applied to Othniel, a judge in Israel, but that certainly did not make Othniel Jehovah, did it? A reading of Isaiah 43:1-12 shows that verse 11 means that Jehovah alone was the One who provided salvation, or deliverance, for Israel; that salvation did not come from any of the gods of the surrounding nations.
Without God, there is no saviour. There is no anything. He is the ultimate everything, including saviour. How did he save us?
THROUGH…THROUGH,………THROUGH Jesus.
So, this obviously makes Jesus also our saviour, for if it wasn't for his actions, we would not be saved.
Just calling someone “saviour” does not make them God. Otherwise, there would be a few God's in the Bible, including certain men who at times saved people.
David,
But if you call someone your savior who saves you from your sins and one who also gives you eternal life, then they would be your God. Jesus saves us from our sins and gives us eternal life.That is a big assumption LU.
If a person lays his life down for me so I can live, does that make that person God?
If a person delivers me from slavery, does that make him God?
If a person dies for my sins, as the sacrificial lamb required by the Law, does that make him God?It is a very human response to say, wow that is the most amazing salvation therfore he must be God.
But ask yourself, at what point does one become God because of salvation that comes through him? At no point is the answer, because all that God sends to save, is his agency. Jesus, Moses, Angels, have all been sent to save and protect.
And rightly so, how is God, an eternal spirit going to lay his life down. Wake up. If God could die, then it would be game over for all living beings. That would be pulling the pug on all life.
Rather, such a great salvation was commissioned by God. It was his will that we were chosen to be saved. He then sent his son into the world to die for us.
If you need proof, you only need to see what Jesus said before he hung on the cross.
“Remove this cup from me, but not MY will but YOUR will”.
Jesus acknowledged that his sacrifice is the will of God, rather than something he planned of his own accord. In addition, Jesus came in the name of his father and not his own name.
So knowing that it was God who willed that his son lay his life down, it compliments the scripture that says that God or YHWH is the saviour becauyse salvation came from God.
It really is so simple to understand, but pride leads men to devise doctrines that only confuse the issue.
So back to what I said before:
“If a person dies for my sins, as the sacrificial lamb required by the Law, does that make him God?”
No in the case of scripture it makes him the sacrificial lamb.
Revelation 7:10
And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”See how salvation is attributed to God AND the Lamb?
Quote (david @ June 25 2011,14:58) Without God, there is no saviour. There is no anything. He is the ultimate everything, including saviour. How did he save us? THROUGH…THROUGH,………THROUGH Jesus.
It is very simple to understand isn't it.But confusion reigns when the pride of man creates doctrines in order to be clever, but only end up causing confusion.
That is perhaps one reason why children are great in the Kingdom of God. They don't mess with the truths of God. When they hear them, they take them as they are.
In fact that is why we love children. They are so innocent that they say what we think is the funniest things, which is often just simple truth. We laugh because of the beautiful simplicity of their words. Once innocence is lost, adults learn to be cunning and embed an agenda using bias. This is often what shapes their doctrine more so than honesty.
Jesus said if we wish to be great in the Kingdom of God, we only need to become like one of these little ones.
Quote (david @ June 24 2011,22:54) Repeatedly the Scriptures refer to God as Savior. At Isaiah 43:11 God even says: “Besides me there is no savior.”
Since Jesus is also referred to as Savior, are God and Jesus the same? Not at all.
Titus 1:3, 4 speaks of “God our Savior,” and then of both “God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.” So, both are saviors.
Jude 25 shows theRepeatedly the Scriptures refer to God as Savior.
At Isaiah 43:11 God even says: “Besides me there is no savior.”
Since Jesus is also referred to as Savior, are God and Jesus the same? Not at all.
DavidThen you are making Paul out to be a liar when he says…
while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior”, Jesus Christ, “WHO GAVE HIMSELF“ for us, that ”THAT HE” might redeem us from all iniquity, and ”purify UNTO HIMSELF” a peculiar people, zealous of good works”. Tit 2:13, 14
There is no mention of the Father here…words like “WHO GAVE HIMSELF“, ”That HE” might redeem us from all iniquity, and ”purify UNTO HIMSELF clearly contradicts your agency claim.
Quote (david @ June 24 2011,22:54) Titus 1:3, 4 speaks of “God our Savior,” and then of both “God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.” So, both are saviors.
So then you have 2 saviors! The NT scriptures do not teach that we have more than “one savior”. Can you have the Father as savior without Jesus? Can you have the Father and Jesus as savior without the Holy Spirit? No because they are ‘One”.Quote (david @ June 24 2011,22:54) Jude 25 shows the relationship, saying: “God, our Savior THROUGH Jesus Christ our Lord.”
(See also Acts 13:23.)
Well David does that mean that because the Father is “the savior” through Jesus that Jesus is not “the savior. Yes the scriptures do make a distinction between the Father, Jesus and the Holy SpiritBut the scriptures never say “They are our saviors or they are our theos/gods”, do they?
Paul makes a distinction between the Father and Jesus to head off Sabellianism but not as a means of denying that Jesus is not God or our Savior. The argument that because all things are through Jesus means that he is not God or that means we have more than one theos/god or more than one savior contradicts the scriptures and is a red herring because if all things are coming through someone then they are coming from that someone.
All things are also “through” God the Father…
For from him and ”through him” and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen. Rom 11:36
Does that mean the Father is not God? Of course not! I can say that Jesus is my savior through the Father, but I can likewise say that the Father is my savior through Jesus.
The rest of your post is Old Testament examples of agents of salvation but none of them were the source of our salvation or eternal life, nor did they have any power of their own as Paul clearly claims Jesus has!
David, the scriptures tell us “Jesus has all authority and Power” (Math 28:18) and that “Jesus upholds all things by the word of his power” (Heb 1:3) and that “by him (Jesus) all things consist”, (Col 1:17) and that “all things come to us from Jesus hands” (John 3:5 & John 16:15).
Tell me David, does everything come to you from Jesus own hands or not?
WJ
Quote David,
But if you call someone your savior who saves you from your sins and one who also gives you eternal life, then they would be your God.hi LU,
I was going to say the exact same thing as T8. This is your assumption, your definition. Your ideas. I don't remember reading any definition of “God” in the Bible that said “Savior=God.”If The Almighty God decides to Save us “THROUGH” … “THROUGH” “ThROugh” someone else, then that is his choice. Why do you not allow God to do this? Why have you limited what God can and cannot do? Does not scripture say he saved us “THROUGH” Jesus? Is it your ideas about what it means to be a savior that are coloring your understanding? What are these ideas based on? What do you think it means that God saved us “Through” Jesus? I think it means he used Jesus to save us. Hence, The Father saved us “through” Jesus and hence the Father can be called our savior.
“Of the Great God and of [the] Savior of Us, Christ Jesus”–Titus 2:13,14
Tit 2:13—Gr., τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Χριστοῦ ᾿Ιησοῦ
(tou me‧ga′lou The‧ou′ kai so‧te′ros he‧mon′ Khri‧stou′ I‧e‧sou′)Almost all “Christians” are trinitarians. Almost all Bible translators are trinitarians. Therefore, almost all Bibles are translated with a slight bias towards trinitarian belief.
Here are some translations that went the other way:
1934 “of the great God and of our The Riverside New
Savior Christ Jesus” Testament,Boston and
New York.1935 “of the great God and of our A New Translation of the
Saviour Christ Jesus” Bible, by James Moffatt, New
York and London.1950 “of the great God and of our New World Translation of
Savior Christ Jesus” the Christian Greek
Scriptures, Brooklyn.1957 “of the great God and of our La Sainte Bible, by Louis
Savior Jesus Christ” Segond, Paris.1970 “of the great God and of our The New American Bible,
Savior Christ Jesus” New York and London.1972 “of the great God and of The New Testament in
Christ Jesus our saviour” Modern English, by
J. B. Phillips, New York.In this place we find two nouns connected by καί (kai, “and”), the first noun being preceded by the definite article τοῦ (tou, “of the”) and the second noun without the definite article.
A similar construction is found in 2Pe 1:1, 2, where, in vs 2, a clear distinction is made between God and Jesus. This indicates that when two distinct persons are connected by καί, if the first person is preceded by the definite article it is not necessary to repeat the definite article before the second person. Examples of this construction in the Greek text are found in Ac 13:50; 15:22; Eph 5:5; 2Th 1:12; 1Ti 5:21; 6:13; 2Ti 4:1. This construction is also found in LXX. (See Pr 24:21 ftn.)
According to An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, by C. F. D. Moule, Cambridge, England, 1971, p. 109, the sense “of the great God, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ . . . is possible in κοινή [koi‧ne′] Greek even without the repetition [of the definite article].”
A detailed study of the construction in Tit 2:13 is found in The Authorship of the Fourth Gospel and Other Critical Essays, by Ezra Abbot, Boston, 1888, pp. 439-457. On p. 452 of this work the following comments are found: “Take an example from the New Testament. In Matt. xxi. 12 we read that Jesus ‘cast out all those that were selling and buying in the temple,’ τοὺς πωλοῦντας καὶ ἀγοράζοντας [tous po‧loun′tas kai a‧go‧ra′zon‧tas]. No one can reasonably suppose that the same persons are here described as both selling and buying. In Mark the two classes are made distinct by the insertion of τούς before ἀγοράζοντας; here it is safely left to the intelligence of the reader to distinguish them. In the case before us [Tit 2:13], the omission of the article before σωτῆρος [so‧te′ros] seems to me to present no difficulty,—not because σωτῆρος is made sufficiently definite by the addition of ἡμῶν [he‧mon′] (Winer), for, since God as well as Christ is often called “our Saviour,” ἡ δόξα τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν [he do′xa tou me‧ga′lou The‧ou′ kai so‧te′ros he‧mon′], standing alone, would most naturally be understood of one subject, namely, God, the Father; but the addition of ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ to σωτῆρος ἡμῶν changes the case entirely, restricting the σωτῆρος ἡμῶν to a person or being who, according to Paul’s habitual use of language, is distinguished from the person or being whom he designates as ὁ θεός [ho The‧os′], so that there was no need of the repetition of the article to prevent ambiguity. So in 2 Thess. i. 12, the expression κατὰ τὴν χάριν τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ κυρίου [ka‧ta′ ten kha′rin tou The‧ou′ he‧mon′ kai ky‧ri′ou] would naturally be understood of one subject, and the article would be required before κυρίου if two were intended; but the simple addition of ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ to κυρίου makes the reference to the two distinct subjects clear without the insertion of the article.”
Therefore, in Tit 2:13, two distinct persons, Jehovah God and Jesus Christ, are mentioned. Throughout the Holy Scriptures it is not possible to identify Jehovah and Jesus as being the same individual.–NWT index 6E
I think we might be getting confused and forgetting that “savior” is a word with meaning, not just a title.
A savior is one who preserves or delivers from danger or destruction.
Jehovah is identified as the principal Savior, the only Source of deliverance. (Isa 43:11; 45:21)
He was the Savior and Deliverer of Israel, time and again. (Ps 106:8, 10, 21; Isa 43:3; 45:15; Jer 14:8)
He saved not only the nation but also individuals who served him. (2Sa 22:1-3)
*Often his salvation was through men raised up by him as saviors. (Ne 9:27)
During the period of the Judges, these special saviors were divinely selected and empowered to deliver Israel from foreign oppression. (Jg 2:16; 3:9, 15)
When Jesus was on earth, Jehovah was his Savior, supporting and strengthening him to maintain integrity through his strenuous trials.—Heb 5:7; Ps 28:8.
Along with his role as Savior, Jehovah is also the “Repurchaser.” (Isa 49:26; 60:16)
In the past he redeemed his people Israel from captivity. In delivering Christians from sin’s bondage, he does the repurchasing through his Son Jesus Christ (1Jo 4:14), Jehovah’s provision for salvation, who is therefore exalted as “Chief Agent and Savior.” (Ac 5:31) Accordingly, Jesus Christ can rightly be called “our Savior,” even though he performs the salvation as the agent of Jehovah. (Tit 1:4; 2Pe 1:11)
The name Jesus, given to God’s Son by angelic direction, means “Jehovah Is Salvation,” for, said the angel, “he will save his people from their sins.” (Mt 1:21; Lu 1:31) This name points out that Jehovah is the Source of salvation, accomplished THROUGH Jesus.
For this reason we find the Father and the Son spoken of together in connection with salvation.—Tit 2:11-13; 3:4-6.
Salvation is provided by Jehovah through Jesus Christ for “all sorts of men.” (1Ti 4:10) He saves them from sin and death (Ro 8:2), from Babylon the Great (Re 18:2, 4), from this world under Satan’s control (Joh 17:16; Col 1:13), and from destruction and everlasting death (Re 7:14-17; 21:3, 4).The ransom sacrifice is the basis for salvation, and as King and everlasting High Priest, Christ Jesus has the authority and power “to save completely those who are approaching God through him.” (Heb 7:23-25; Re 19:16) He is “a savior of this body,” the congregation of his anointed followers, and also of all who exercise faith in him.—Eph 5:23; 1Jo 4:14; Joh 3:16, 17.
INSIGHT book, “savior.”
David
Jn 19:10 “Do you refuse to speak to me?” Pilate said. “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?”
Jn 19:11 Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”Pierre
David,
This really isn't as complicated as you make it sound. Peter really did believe that Jesus was His great God and Savior and that He was the Son of God…He distinguishes Jesus from His Father and thus shows that two distinct persons…the Father and the Son, are both called his God, one as the Son and the other as the Father.Read what Simon Peter (Cephas) says here about Jesus and the Father and Spirit:
Moreover, because we were catchers of fish,(8) and not skilled in books, therefore did He also say to us: “I will send you the Spirit, the Paraclete, that He may teach you that which ye know not; “for it is by His gift that we speak those things which ye hear. And, further, by it we bring aid to the sick, and healing to the diseased: that by the hearing of His word and by the aid of His power ye may believe in Christ, that He is God, the Son of God; and may be delivered from the service of bondage, and may worship Him and His Father, and glorify His divine Spirit. For when we glorify the Father, we glorify the Son also with Him; and when we worship the Son, we worship the Father also with Him; and when we confess the Spirit, we confess the Father also and the Son: because in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Spirit, were we commanded to baptize those who believe, that they may live for ever.
Flee therefore from the words of the wisdom of this world, in which there is no profit, and draw near to those which are true and faithful, and acceptable before God; whose reward also is laid up in store, and whose recompense standeth sure. Now, too,(9) the light has arisen on the creation, and the world has obtained the eyes, of the mind, that every man may see and understand that it is not fit that creatures should be worshipped instead of the Creator, nor together with the Creator: because everything which is a creature is made to be a worshipper of its Maker, and is not to be worshipped like its Creator. But this One who came to us is God, the Son of God, in His own nature, notwithstanding that He mingled(10) His Godhead with our manhood, in order that He might renew our manhood by the aid of His Godhead. And on this account it is right that we should worship Him, because He is to be worshipped together with His Father, and that we should not worship creatures, who were created for the worship of the Creator. For He is Himself the God of truth and verity; He is Himself from before all worlds and creatures; He is Himself the veritable Son, and the glorious fruit(11) which is from the exalted Father.
But ye see the wonderful works which accompany and follow these words. One would not credit it: the time lo! is short sinceHe ascended to His Father, and see how His Gospel has winged its flight through the whole creation-that thereby it may be known and believed that He Himself is the Creator of creatures, and that by His bidding creatures subsist. And, whereas ye saw the sun become darkened at His death, ye yourselves also are witnesses. The earth, moreover, quaked when He was slain, and the veil was rent at His death. And concerning these things the governor Pilate also was witness: for he himself sent and made them known to Caesar,(12) and these things, and more than these, were read before him, and before the princes of your city.
Also, you go on and on about Jehovah this and Jehovah that but you don't seem to realize that the Son has the name Jehovah as well as the Father. One that is seen and heard and one that is unseen and unheard. The Targums identify the one that is seen and heard as 'the Word of the Lord.'
God bless,
KathiQuote (t8 @ June 25 2011,05:24) That is a big assumption LU. If a person lays his life down for me so I can live, does that make that person God?
If a person delivers me from slavery, does that make him God?
If a person dies for my sins, as the sacrificial lamb required by the Law, does that make him God?It is a very human response to say, wow that is the most amazing salvation therfore he must be God.
But ask yourself, at what point does one become God because of salvation that comes through him? At no point is the answer, because all that God sends to save, is his agency. Jesus, Moses, Angels, have all been sent to save and protect.
And rightly so, how is God, an eternal spirit going to lay his life down. Wake up. If God could die, then it would be game over for all living beings. That would be pulling the pug on all life.
Rather, such a great salvation was commissioned by God. It was his will that we were chosen to be saved. He then sent his son into the world to die for us.
If you need proof, you only need to see what Jesus said before he hung on the cross.
“Remove this cup from me, but not MY will but YOUR will”.
Jesus acknowledged that his sacrifice is the will of God, rather than something he planned of his own accord. In addition, Jesus came in the name of his father and not his own name.
So knowing that it was God who willed that his son lay his life down, it compliments the scripture that says that God or YHWH is the saviour becauyse salvation came from God.
It really is so simple to understand, but pride leads men to devise doctrines that only confuse the issue.
So back to what I said before:
“If a person dies for my sins, as the sacrificial lamb required by the Law, does that make him God?”
No in the case of scripture it makes him the sacrificial lamb.
Revelation 7:10
And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”See how salvation is attributed to God AND the Lamb?
Hi t8,you asked:
Quote If a person lays his life down for me so I can live, does that make that person God?
If a person delivers me from slavery, does that make him God?No.
Quote If a person dies for my sins, as the sacrificial lamb required by the Law, does that make him God? If that person's sacrifice was acceptable to pay for the sins of all mankind, that person is not just a man. A righteous man cannot die for the sins of even one man, did you know that? It is written in scripture. No man can die for the sins of another man, no matter how righteous he is.
You ask if Christ's death as payment for our sins makes Him God. Well, He was God in the beginning so His death did not make Him God, His relationship with God the Father made Him God because they have the same nature and attributes.
One is the Son and one is the Father and that is why the Son does the will of another…He is a perfect Son after all.
Quote And rightly so, how is God, an eternal spirit going to lay his life down. Wake up. If God could die, then it would be game over for all living beings. That would be pulling the pug on all life. The eternal spirit of Jesus didn't die, it was His flesh body that died. Man cannot kill the spirit but can only kill the body. In other words, the pre-existent part of Jesus did not die, it was the body that was prepared for Him that died. The body that was prepared for Him was not from eternity past.
Quote Rather, such a great salvation was commissioned by God. It was his will that we were chosen to be saved. He then sent his son into the world to die for us. If you need proof, you only need to see what Jesus said before he hung on the cross.
“Remove this cup from me, but not MY will but YOUR will”.
The Father and the Son had an eternal covenant of grace. Each party agreed to the covenant, not just one. It was also the will of the Son that man be saved. Jesus prayed for the cup to be removed which shows His humanity. He never called down the legions of angels to remove Him from the persecution, but naturally, He did not want to go through it.
Quote Jesus acknowledged that his sacrifice is the will of God, rather than something he planned of his own accord. In addition, Jesus came in the name of his father and not his own name. Yes, His sacrifice was the will of God and yes He did come in the name of His Father. Many did not believe that the Father was behind His existence on earth. They did not like it when Jesus made such claims.
Quote So knowing that it was God who willed that his son lay his life down, it compliments the scripture that says that God or YHWH is the saviour becauyse salvation came from God. Well, they both took part in our salvation. They are both our Savior in their different ways, one as the sender and one as the sacrifice.
Quote So back to what I said before: “If a person dies for my sins, as the sacrificial lamb required by the Law, does that make him God?”
No in the case of scripture it makes him the sacrificial lamb.
Like I said before, the sacrificing did not make Him our God, He already was that from the beginning with God the Father.
You are right that He is the sacrificial lamb…also.
Now, I know that you are going to say that there is only one God, the Father. Here is how I understand this:
The equation:
a mighty God-the Father + a mighty God-the Son + their Spirit = the Almighty God, our FatherIn other words, what is an almighty God…I believe that an almighty God is one who has always had His Son and His Spirit with Him.
Context will help you see which side of the equation is being referred to. Context either refers to the sum of the three as the Almighty Father-the right side of the equation, or each separate part of the left side of the equation-the Father or the Son or the Holy Spirit.
Blessings,
KathiLet's dumb this thread down and simplify it.
Titus 2:13 might be calling Jesus “mighty god” and it might not be. If it is, then it is simply a fulfillment of Isaiah 9:6, and therefore not a trinity proof, right? If it is not calling Jesus “mighty god”, then it's still not a trinity proof, right?
So what's left? The “savior” part? God sent many saviors in behalf of His people. Their stories are all throughout the scriptures. But it all boils down to one word…………”SENT”.
It was the ONE we know as “God” who SENT the one we know as “Jesus” to be a savior for us.
And He who SENDS is One, while he who is SENT is another.
Finally, the scripture the trinni's usually refer to says “APART FROM ME, there is no savior”. This doesn't say that everyone God sent as a savior IS Him. It says that APART FROM HIM, no one would have the power to save even a hair on their own head.
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ June 26 2011,21:57) Let's dumb this thread down and simplify it. Titus 2:13 might be calling Jesus “mighty god” and it might not be. If it is, then it is simply a fulfillment of Isaiah 9:6, and therefore not a trinity proof, right? If it is not calling Jesus “mighty god”, then it's still not a trinity proof, right?
So what's left? The “savior” part? God sent many saviors in behalf of His people. Their stories are all throughout the scriptures. But it all boils down to one word…………”SENT”.
It was the ONE we know as “God” who SENT the one we know as “Jesus” to be a savior for us.
And He who SENDS is One, while he who is SENT is another.
Finally, the scripture the trinni's usually refer to says “APART FROM ME, there is no savior”. This doesn't say that everyone God sent as a savior IS Him. It says that APART FROM HIM, no one would have the power to save even a hair on their own head.
peace,
mike
another dead horse beaten to deadQuote (Lightenup @ June 26 2011,12:57) David,
This really isn't as complicated as you make it sound. Peter really did believe that Jesus was His great God and Savior and that He was the Son of God…He distinguishes Jesus from His Father and thus shows that two distinct persons…the Father and the Son, are both called his God, one as the Son and the other as the Father.Read what Simon Peter (Cephas) says here about Jesus and the Father and Spirit:
Moreover, because we were catchers of fish,(8) and not skilled in books, therefore did He also say to us: “I will send you the Spirit, the Paraclete, that He may teach you that which ye know not; “for it is by His gift that we speak those things which ye hear. And, further, by it we bring aid to the sick, and healing to the diseased: that by the hearing of His word and by the aid of His power ye may believe in Christ, that He is God, the Son of God; and may be delivered from the service of bondage, and may worship Him and His Father, and glorify His divine Spirit. For when we glorify the Father, we glorify the Son also with Him; and when we worship the Son, we worship the Father also with Him; and when we confess the Spirit, we confess the Father also and the Son: because in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Spirit, were we commanded to baptize those who believe, that they may live for ever.
Flee therefore from the words of the wisdom of this world, in which there is no profit, and draw near to those which are true and faithful, and acceptable before God; whose reward also is laid up in store, and whose recompense standeth sure. Now, too,(9) the light has arisen on the creation, and the world has obtained the eyes, of the mind, that every man may see and understand that it is not fit that creatures should be worshipped instead of the Creator, nor together with the Creator: because everything which is a creature is made to be a worshipper of its Maker, and is not to be worshipped like its Creator. But this One who came to us is God, the Son of God, in His own nature, notwithstanding that He mingled(10) His Godhead with our manhood, in order that He might renew our manhood by the aid of His Godhead. And on this account it is right that we should worship Him, because He is to be worshipped together with His Father, and that we should not worship creatures, who were created for the worship of the Creator. For He is Himself the God of truth and verity; He is Himself from before all worlds and creatures; He is Himself the veritable Son, and the glorious fruit(11) which is from the exalted Father.
But ye see the wonderful works which accompany and follow these words. One would not credit it: the time lo! is short sinceHe ascended to His Father, and see how His Gospel has winged its flight through the whole creation-that thereby it may be known and believed that He Himself is the Creator of creatures, and that by His bidding creatures subsist. And, whereas ye saw the sun become darkened at His death, ye yourselves also are witnesses. The earth, moreover, quaked when He was slain, and the veil was rent at His death. And concerning these things the governor Pilate also was witness: for he himself sent and made them known to Caesar,(12) and these things, and more than these, were read before him, and before the princes of your city.
Also, you go on and on about Jehovah this and Jehovah that but you don't seem to realize that the Son has the name Jehovah as well as the Father. One that is seen and heard and one that is unseen and unheard. The Targums identify the one that is seen and heard as 'the Word of the Lord.'
God bless,
Kathi
He distinguishes Jesus from His Father and thus shows that two distinct persons.Let's put that into one context in scripture.
Scripture distinguishes Jesus from GOD and thus shows two distinct persons.
Do you admit that?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
