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JA
no.my question is about the Holy spirit,you will have to go to your long explanation because it is not clear enough to me
Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 07 2010,00:18) Terra, There is a simple answer and there is a complex answer.
The simple answer is this:
There are those destined from the beginning to be saved – chosen by God to be servants of Christ;
There are those destined from the beginning who will not be saved – given up by God to be servants of Satan;
The vast majority are free to choose their destiny.
This latter group is testified to by those in the other two groups and they will accept or renounce the testimony of either as they will.
The testimony of Christ, backed by the Holy Spirit, is the testimony of Truth concerning God Almighty and the HIS plan for HIS Son, Jesus Christ, mankind and then rest of his creation.
Those who believe in ('drawn to')Jesus Christ and his testament, or 'visited' by the Holy Spirit by way of a revelation, are given limited amounts of the Holy Spirit and if they continue in the Spirit then they are saved to the glory of God – what is termed 'to die [believing] in Christ'.
Terra, my brother, are you about to ask about 'free will'?
AskinYou are right, there are those that were chosen by God to be called, that's what the Bible says.
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
But, it is still up to the individual to answer that call.
Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
And the same is to be said for those that are “chosen” for destruction; God did not create, or chose them, for that purpose. God however knows the end from the beginning, and he knows who will be obedient, and who will not; it is still up to the individual to choose.
When the Bible says, God creates good and evil, the way I understand that is, God creates good, but sometimes his creation turns evil, by there own choice.Georg
I always liked this analogy explaining how God, as The Saviour, and Jesus, as The Saviour are distinct from one another, yet working towards the same purpose: (caution, like the parables, don't over analyze the details of this analogy too much; there's only one simple point that is intended to be brought to light)
Imagine a rescue boat coming to the aid of somebody wearily treading water. One could say that the skipper of the boat was the savior in this scenario (after all, he sighted the lost and ready to drown soul, and steered, positioning the boat in such a manner as to facilitate rescue. One could also call the 1st Mate the savior in this scenario, for he not only sighted the victim at sea, but he threw the lifesaving floatation device out in order to pull the tempest tossed victim into the safety of the boat.
It sure seems this is what Jesus was referring to when he said, “My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.” – John 5:17.
NOTE: In case somebody tries to throw verse 18 in there in order to prove the trinity, stop and consider the few verses:
v18 – 20: Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the Sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever He doeth, these also the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that Himself doeth: and He will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.”
The Jews accused Jesus of asserting God's authority (healing) in a manner that was not Kosher (to them). He healed on the wrong day of the week, and called God His Father, all without their mutual consent and approval. To them, he was a dangerous zealot – a man capable of executing Godly authority, but in a manner that was unlawful to them (he gave himself the Title: Son of God, once again, without their prior consent…they had a law, if any man CALLED HIMSELF this, he was worthy of death – John 19:7.)
Jesus responds saying in essence, “yeah, I have equality with God (that is, one vested with authority to execute His works), because I seek this authority with the humility of a child working with his father. I see my father doing something, and I imitate it.
This manner of apprehending Godly authority [equality] is righteous because of humility (which is the absence of self-assertion, but the presence of submissive servitude)
Phillipians 2:5 -7: Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the lilkeness of men.” NASB
Jesus didn't grasp at equality with God. Satan did grasp at equality with God (for self-serving reasons; certainly not with the humble mindset of an obedient servant. Adam and Eve also grasped at equality. Without the proper motivation and mindset, things don't go very well under these circumstances)
John 5 isn't talking about Jesus proclaiming himself to be God; and the Jews were not accusing him of this either. The accusation is his taking and using authority unlawfully. They were in essence accusing him of grasping at equalilty (Godly authority) with God in the same way that Adam and Satan had done.
Blessings,
Patrick
He sought God with the humility of one willing to die
Patrick
I'm not sure if I understand you correctly; are you saying that Jesus is equal to the Father, but did not grasp it, as Satan did? “if yes”, let me just say this; Jesus, having received authority to do a job, does not make him equal to the one who “gave” him that authority. You are right, Satan tried to become that authority, and failed, no surprise there.
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 40:25 ¶ To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.
If I read you wrong, sorry.
Georg
Georg……..GT was no saying Jesus was equal with the Father , think you may have misunderstood Him, and You are right in what you said also.
peace and love to you and Irene………………….gene
Hi Georg,
Yeah, as Gene said, I wasn't endeavoring to insinuate that Jesus was equal to His Father, God. God is separate from, and superior to his son, and that verse you quoted is in Isaiah is really very telling.
One of the (several) things trinitarians overlook is the fact that there are thousands of SINGULAR pronouns that are associated with God's name, YHWH, in the Hebrew scriptures of the OT.The equality I'm speaking of is along the lines of representative authority. A U.S. Ambassador has the right to say, “I'm equal to the power of the United States” in a given legal situation with another country. He is simply saying that he is representative of this authority, and can effect international policy with the full weight of the Executive Branch of government.
Joseph and Pharaoh is another good example. Pharaoh was greater only in throne, but Joseph had the full weight of his (Pharaoh's) authority to execute policy in Egypt.
Blessings,
Patrick
Terra,
the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth that also:
1) gives life ( John 7:38 );
2) gives gifts ( 1 Corinthians 12 );
3) counsels ( John 14:26 );
4) encourages ( Acts 9:31 )
5) steps in on our behalf ( Romans 8:23 );
6) builds up ( Romans 8:27 );
7) leads us to obedience ( 2 Corinthians 3:5 );
8) brings to mind ( 1 John 2:20, 27 )
9) energizes and makes effective ( Acts 1:8 ).None of us receive all these things in one go from the Holy Spirit (under the control and authority of Christ).
We read the Scriptures concerning the testament of Christ and believe.
When we believe we receive a limited amount of the [elements of the] Holy Spirit to aid and support (Comfort us).
However, because we only have limited amount of the Spirit it is possible that we can fall back from belief so we need continual renewal.
We pray to God, through Jesus Christ, and what we pray for we will receive if our prayer is God blessed, the delivery of which is through Jesus and executed by the Holy Spirit.Quote (glad tidings @ Feb. 06 2010,11:03) I always liked this analogy explaining how God, as The Saviour, and Jesus, as The Saviour are distinct from one another, yet working towards the same purpose: (caution, like the parables, don't over analyze the details of this analogy too much; there's only one simple point that is intended to be brought to light) Imagine a rescue boat coming to the aid of somebody wearily treading water. One could say that the skipper of the boat was the savior in this scenario (after all, he sighted the lost and ready to drown soul, and steered, positioning the boat in such a manner as to facilitate rescue. One could also call the 1st Mate the savior in this scenario, for he not only sighted the victim at sea, but he threw the lifesaving floatation device out in order to pull the tempest tossed victim into the safety of the boat.
It sure seems this is what Jesus was referring to when he said, “My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.” – John 5:17.
NOTE: In case somebody tries to throw verse 18 in there in order to prove the trinity, stop and consider the few verses:
v18 – 20: Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the Sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever He doeth, these also the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that Himself doeth: and He will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.”
The Jews accused Jesus of asserting God's authority (healing) in a manner that was not Kosher (to them). He healed on the wrong day of the week, and called God His Father, all without their mutual consent and approval. To them, he was a dangerous zealot – a man capable of executing Godly authority, but in a manner that was unlawful to them (he gave himself the Title: Son of God, once again, without their prior consent…they had a law, if any man CALLED HIMSELF this, he was worthy of death – John 19:7.)
Jesus responds saying in essence, “yeah, I have equality with God (that is, one vested with authority to execute His works), because I seek this authority with the humility of a child working with his father. I see my father doing something, and I imitate it.
This manner of apprehending Godly authority [equality] is righteous because of humility (which is the absence of self-assertion, but the presence of submissive servitude)
Phillipians 2:5 -7: Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the lilkeness of men.” NASB
Jesus didn't grasp at equality with God. Satan did grasp at equality with God (for self-serving reasons; certainly not with the humble mindset of an obedient servant. Adam and Eve also grasped at equality. Without the proper motivation and mindset, things don't go very well under these circumstances)
John 5 isn't talking about Jesus proclaiming himself to be God; and the Jews were not accusing him of this either. The accusation is his taking and using authority unlawfully. They were in essence accusing him of grasping at equalilty (Godly authority) with God in the same way that Adam and Satan had done.
Blessings,
Patrick
He sought God with the humility of one willing to die
Patrick,
Hello, I read your analogy and really liked it. I would take it a little further by having the first mate jump in the water and giving up his own life while saving the one drowning and then the skipper rescuing the first mate and resuscitating him. Just my two cents
Also, according to your view of Phillipians 2:5-7 (below), I had received the same understanding as you have. I was contemplating this passage many years ago and felt as though God compared the attitude of His Son to the attitude of satan. Satan did think he could attain equality, the Son didn't. The Son ends up exalted in a position over all creation, satan ends up burning in the lake of fire for eternity.
Quote Phillipians 2:5 -7: Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the lilkeness of men.” NASB Jesus didn't grasp at equality with God. Satan did grasp at equality with God (for self-serving reasons; certainly not with the humble mindset of an obedient servant. Adam and Eve also grasped at equality. Without the proper motivation and mindset, things don't go very well under these circumstances)
Just today I posted something that I was finally able to more clearly put into words about my understanding of the Godhead as it pertains to the Father and the Son. Here is the link to my post if you are interested. (It is my second post on that page that I am specifically referring to.)
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;st=230
Have a great day,
KathiQuote (glad tidings @ Feb. 07 2010,05:10) Hi Georg, Yeah, as Gene said, I wasn't endeavoring to insinuate that Jesus was equal to His Father, God. God is separate from, and superior to his son, and that verse you quoted is in Isaiah is really very telling.
One of the (several) things trinitarians overlook is the fact that there are thousands of SINGULAR pronouns that are associated with God's name, YHWH, in the Hebrew scriptures of the OT.The equality I'm speaking of is along the lines of representative authority. A U.S. Ambassador has the right to say, “I'm equal to the power of the United States” in a given legal situation with another country. He is simply saying that he is representative of this authority, and can effect international policy with the full weight of the Executive Branch of government.
Joseph and Pharaoh is another good example. Pharaoh was greater only in throne, but Joseph had the full weight of his (Pharaoh's) authority to execute policy in Egypt.
Blessings,
Patrick
Hi Patrick:I agree with you on this brother. Good post. Maybe it will help those who believe in the trinity to understand.
Love in Christ,
Marty
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