Title confusion trick (second try)

[david]

Quote

David, . . . .And show how Jesus could be the “Savior” without being God. And explain how you can have two Saviors. This is the chief problem with anti-trinitarianism. It is not consistent. If Jesus is excluded as “God” in this verse then God is excluded as “Savior.” Yet anti-trinitarians say that God alone is Savior right? You're too much David. Too much.

–The THINKER, “Sharp's Rule” thread

[[MESSAGE TO EVERYONE]]
THIS THREAD IS ABOUT WHAT THINKER SAID ABOVE, THAT I MADE BOLD.  THAT IS ALL THIS THREAD IS ABOUT.  THAT'S IT.  PLEASE TRY TO RESPECT MY WISHES TO STAY ON TOPIC!

THINKER, you want me to show you how Jesus could be “Savior” without being God.

You seem to think that attaching the word “savior” to someone equals them being God.

Well if that's the case, THINKER, why do you worship so many gods?  Because many in the Bible are called “savior.”  And according to your logic, that makes them “God.”

Titus 1:3, 4 speaks of “God our Savior,” and then of both “God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.”

So, both are saviors.

Jude 25 shows the relationship, saying: “God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord.”  (See also Acts 13:23.)

So, how is God our savior?  In that God saved us THROUGH the ransom of his Son.  Is this not what the scripture above says?

At Judges 3:9, the same Hebrew word (mohshi?a?, rendered “savior” or “deliverer”) that is used at Isaiah 43:11 is applied to Othniel, a judge in Israel, but that certainly did not make Othniel Jehovah, did it?

The THINKER, show me how Othniel or Ehud could be saviors and not be God?  (This is your reasoning, not mine.)

***

I found the article below which addresses these points very well:
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009….ck.html

Is. 43:11 – “I, even I, am Jehovah; and besides me there is no saviour.” – ASV.

Luke 2:11 – “for there is born to you this day in the city of David a Saviour, who is Christ the Lord.” – ASV.

Some trinitarians will quote the two scriptures above as “proof” that Jesus is Jehovah. After all, not only do both Jesus and Jehovah have the title “Saviour,” but Jehovah says he is the only saviour!

But is “saviour” (yasha in Hebrew, soter in NT Greek) really an exclusive title for Jehovah, or can it properly be applied to other individuals?

If Jehovah is insisting that no one but himself is ever to be called “saviour,” then He and His inspired Bible writers would never call anyone else by that exclusive title.
So, when we read that Othniel (Judges 3:9) and Ehud (Judges 3:15) are both called “saviour” (same Hebrew word translated “saviour” at Is. 43:11 is translated “deliverer” in KJV – compare ASV), should we really believe they are both Jehovah because “besides [Jehovah] there is no saviour”? If so, we have a new “trinity”: The Father, Ehud, and Othniel!!

“Mystery” religionists and “plural-oneness God” devotees should be interested in Obadiah 21 also. There they can “prove” that all those saviours are Jehovah. Furthermore, they might “prove” that those saviours are Christians who, therefore, will all be Jehovah! For example, if Jehovah alone is saviour, and Jesus is saviour because he saves (Greek: sosei – Matt. 1:21 and soso – John 12:47) men, then Jesus “must” be God. By this same reasoning, since some followers of Jesus also save (Greek: sosei – James 5:20; 1 Tim. 4:16 and soso – 1 Cor. 9:22) men, then they (the saviours of Obadiah 21?) too, must be God!

(This is very similar to the “Forgiveness” silliness that is sometimes used to “prove” the trinity. – “Only God can forgive sins,” say certain trinitarians, “and Jesus forgave sin, Mark 2:7. Therefore, Jesus must be God!” So, John 20:20-23 “proves” that the disciples also must be God, right?)

Also compare “you [God] alone are holy [Gr. hosios: 'loyal' in some translations] – Rev. 15:4, ASV – with the many uses of “holy” (hosios) for other persons and things – esp. Titus 1:8, ASV, (hosios).)

Or, compare the “to God, wise alone,” (Rom 16:27).  Yet, many others in the Bible are called “wise.”

We realize that Jehovah, as the only Almighty and Most High God, is the ultimate Saviour and the only origin of salvation, and, in that sense, and by comparison, there are no others.

However, it is obvious that other individuals can be, and are, saviours in a subordinate sense, if Jehovah so wills it. That means, then, that Jehovah is the only ultimate saviour (or the only ultimate source of salvation), and, in the cases of Ehud and Othniel, for example, Jehovah was saviour through them.

So when we see statements like: “…. Jesus is the savior (gospel), it says that there is no savior other than Jehovah which ties in with Peter saying in Acts 4:10-12 that there is no savior but Jesus”, we know what is intended:
There have been many saviors or deliverers (yasha – Hebrew, and soter – NT Greek) found in scripture who saved others through appointment by or commandment of God. But there is only one most high source of salvation (or only one savior or deliverer [yasha / soter] in the highest sense of the word) – Jehovah, the Father.

Acts 4:10-12 actually says about Jesus, “whom God raised from the dead”: (12) “There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among mortals by [or `through'] which we may be saved.”
“For of all names in the world given to men, this is the only one by which we can be saved.” – JB & NJB.

“There is salvation in no one else! Under all heaven there is no other name for men to call upon to save them.” – LB.

Yes Jesus is our savior and king, but he is our only savior in the sense of being the only one (excluding God in heaven the source of that salvation who sent him for this purpose) who gave us the opportunity for eternal salvation. This is explained in John 3:17: “Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.” – NRSV.
God is the source of salvation, Jesus was the instrument.

(It's like scripture telling us that Jehovah gave the Israelites the Law and then also saying Moses gave the Israelites the law. They were both the Lawgiver, but in different senses: Jehovah was the source, and Moses was the instrument. Jehovah gave the law to Israel through Moses.

The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology also tells us: “Because God is the initiator [source] of salvation, both he and Christ are called soter, saviour …” – p. 78, Vol. 2, Zondervan, 1986.

Notice what the very trinitarian NIVSB has to say in its introduction to the book of Judges:
“Title – The title [Judges] describes the leaders Israel had from the time of the elders who outlived Joshua until the time of the monarchy. Their principal purpose is best expressed in 2:16: `Then the LORD [Jehovah] raised up judges who saved them out of the hands of … raiders.' Since it was God who permitted the oppression and raised up deliverers [saviors], he himself was Israel's ultimate Judge and Deliverer [Savior].”

The highly respected (trinitarian, of course
) The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology also tells us: “In Jdg. 3:9, 15 'saviour' might be taken as a technical term for the judges. At the time of the judges, Yahweh raised up such  'saviours' for Israel who rescued them from their enemies (cf. 12:3).  'Then the LORD [Jehovah] raised up judges, who saved [esosen] them ….' (Jdg. 2:16). Similarly Ezra, … commented on Israel's rebellion thus: '… and according to thy great mercies thou [Jehovah] didst give them saviours who saved them [soteras kai esosas] from the hand of their enemies' (Neh. 9:27). Nevertheless, Jdg 2:18 stresses that it was Yahweh [Jehovah] who is the ultimate source of the saving: 'Whenever the LORD [Jehovah] raised up judges for them, the LORD [Jehovah] was with the judge, and he saved them from the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge…'.” – p. 218, Vol. 3, Zondervan Publ., 1986.

So, again, Jehovah raised up saviors for Israel, but in the highest sense the only savior was Jehovah himself, the ultimate source of all salvation.

This is well-illustrated at Judges 6:14 where Jehovah commands Gideon to save Israel. But later, the saviour, Gideon, says it is Jehovah who is saving Israel (Judges 6:37).

Those who look for great “mysteries” in every Bible statement and those who look for revelations of a multiple-persons-in-one God could well take these scriptures to “prove” Gideon is Jehovah. But it should be obvious to any objective student that Jehovah saved Israel through Gideon!

With that understanding in mind look at Jude 25. (Unfortunately this verse is one of the thousands which were rendered incorrectly by the King James translators in 1611.)

Modern translators correctly render this verse:
“To the only God, our Savior through Jesus Christ [compare John 3:17]” – RSV. Also see The Jerusalem Bible.

(Notice the careful distinction at Jude 25 between “the only God” and “Jesus Christ our Lord” – compare John 17:1, 3.) It might be worthwhile to examine Heb. 5:7 also – “Jesus offered up prayers … unto Him that was able to save him.”

It is clear that, as Ehud, Othniel, and Gideon were saviors because Jehovah was providing salvation through them, so Jesus, in a much larger sense, is also savior because Jehovah (“the only God”) has provided salvation through him! – Compare 1 Thess. 5:9; 1 Peter 2:2 (modern translations); Rev. 7:10.

It might also be interesting to examine the meaning of Jesus' personal name. Like the names “Joshua” and “Isaiah,” Jesus' name literally means “Jehovah is salvation”!

….
PLEASE COMMENT ON THE ABOVE TOPIC ONLY!

[GeneBalthrop]

David……….You are right on this one. GOD the FATHER is the ONLY (TRUE) SAVIOR, He can uses anything He wants to to accomplish that goal, Jesus, the Prophets, Judges, Nations, what ever he so choses to bring deliverance.

gene

[martian]

Quote (david @ Dec. 23 2009,16:41)

Quote David, . . . .And show how Jesus could be the “Savior” without being God. And explain how you can have two Saviors. This is the chief problem with anti-trinitarianism. It is not consistent. If Jesus is excluded as “God” in this verse then God is excluded as “Savior.” Yet anti-trinitarians say that God alone is Savior right? You're too much David. Too much. –The THINKER, “Sharp's Rule” thread [[MESSAGE TO EVERYONE]] THIS THREAD IS ABOUT WHAT THINKER SAID ABOVE, THAT I MADE BOLD.  THAT IS ALL THIS THREAD IS ABOUT.  THAT'S IT.  PLEASE TRY TO RESPECT MY WISHES TO STAY ON TOPIC! TT, you want me to show you how Jesus could be “Savior” without being God. You seem to think that attaching the word “savior” to someone equals them being God. Well if that's the case, why do you worship so many gods?  Because many in the Bible are called “savior.” Titus 1:3, 4 speaks of “God our Savior,” and then of both “God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.” So, both are saviors. Jude 25 shows the relationship, saying: “God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord.”  (See also Acts 13:23.) So, how is God our savior?  In that God saved us THROUGH the ransom of his Son.  Is this not what the scripture above says? At Judges 3:9, the same Hebrew word (mohshi?a?, rendered “savior” or “deliverer”) that is used at Isaiah 43:11 is applied to Othniel, a judge in Israel, but that certainly did not make Othniel Jehovah, did it? TT, show me how Othniel or Ehud could be saviors and not be God?  (This is your reasoning, not mine.) *** I found the article below which addresses these points very well: http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009….ck.html Is. 43:11 – “I, even I, am Jehovah; and besides me there is no saviour.” – ASV. Luke 2:11 – “for there is born to you this day in the city of David a Saviour, who is Christ the Lord.” – ASV. Some trinitarians will quote the two scriptures above as “proof” that Jesus is Jehovah. After all, not only do both Jesus and Jehovah have the title “Saviour,” but Jehovah says he is the only saviour! But is “saviour” (yasha in Hebrew, soter in NT Greek) really an exclusive title for Jehovah, or can it properly be applied to other individuals? If Jehovah is insisting that no one but himself is ever to be called “saviour,” then He and His inspired Bible writers would never call anyone else by that exclusive title. So, when we read that Othniel (Judges 3:9) and Ehud (Judges 3:15) are both called “saviour” (same Hebrew word translated “saviour” at Is. 43:11 is translated “deliverer” in KJV – compare ASV), should we really believe they are both Jehovah because “besides [Jehovah] there is no saviour”? If so, we have a new “trinity”: The Father, Ehud, and Othniel!! “Mystery” religionists and “plural-oneness God” devotees should be interested in Obadiah 21 also. There they can “prove” that all those saviours are Jehovah. Furthermore, they might “prove” that those saviours are Christians who, therefore, will all be Jehovah! For example, if Jehovah alone is saviour, and Jesus is saviour because he saves (Greek: sosei – Matt. 1:21 and soso – John 12:47) men, then Jesus “must” be God. By this same reasoning, since some followers of Jesus also save (Greek: sosei – James 5:20; 1 Tim. 4:16 and soso – 1 Cor. 9:22) men, then they (the saviours of Obadiah 21?) too, must be God! (This is very similar to the “Forgiveness” silliness that is sometimes used to “prove” the trinity. – “Only God can forgive sins,” say certain trinitarians, “and Jesus forgave sin, Mark 2:7. Therefore, Jesus must be God!” So, John 20:20-23 “proves” that the disciples also must be God, right?) Also compare “you [God] alone are holy [Gr. hosios: 'loyal' in some translations] – Rev. 15:4, ASV – with the many uses of “holy” (hosios) for other persons and things – esp. Titus 1:8, ASV, (hosios).) Or, compare the “to God, wise alone,” (Rom 11:27).  Yet, many others in the Bible are called “wise.” We realize that Jehovah, as the only Almighty and Most High God, is the ultimate Saviour and the only origin of salvation, and, in that sense, and by comparison, there are no others. However, it is obvious that other individuals can be, and are, saviours in a subordinate sense, if Jehovah so wills it. That means, then, that Jehovah is the only ultimate saviour (or the only ultimate source of salvation), and, in the cases of Ehud and Othniel, for example, Jehovah was saviour through them. So when we see statements like: “…. Jesus is the savior (gospel), it says that there is no savior other than Jehovah which ties in with Peter saying in Acts 4:10-12 that there is no savior but Jesus”, we know what is intended: There have been many saviors or deliverers (yasha – Hebrew, and soter – NT Greek) found in scripture who saved others through appointment by or commandment of God. But there is only one most high source of salvation (or only one savior or deliverer [yasha / soter] in the highest sense of the word) – Jehovah, the Father. Acts 4:10-12 actually says about Jesus, “whom God raised from the dead”: (12) “There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among mortals by [or `through'] which we may be saved.” “For of all names in the world given to men, this is the only one by which we can be saved.” – JB & NJB. “There is salvation in no one else! Under all heaven there is no other name for men to call upon to save them.” – LB. Yes Jesus is our savior and king, but he is our only savior in the sense of being the only one (excluding God in heaven the source of that salvation who sent him for this purpose) who gave us the opportunity for eternal salvation. This is explained in John 3:17: “Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.” – NRSV. God is the source of salvation, Jesus was the instrument. (It's like scripture telling us that Jehovah gave the Israelites the Law and then also saying Moses gave the Israelites the law. They were both the Lawgiver, but in different senses: Jehovah was the source, and Moses was the instrument. Jehovah gave the law to Israel through Moses. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology also tells us: “Because God is the initiator [source] of salvation, both he and Christ are called soter, saviour …” – p. 78, Vol. 2, Zondervan, 1986. Notice what the very trinitarian NIVSB has to say in its introduction to the book of Judges: “Title – The title [Judges] describes the leaders Israel had from the time of the elders who outlived Joshua until the time of the monarchy. Their principal purpose is best expressed in 2:16: `Then the LORD [Jehovah] raised up judges who saved them out of the hands of … raiders.' Since it was God who permitted the oppression and raised up deliverers [saviors], he himself was Israel's ultimate Judge and Deliverer [Savior].” The highly respected (trinitarian, of course) The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology also tells us: “In Jdg. 3:9, 15 'saviour' might be taken as a technical term for the judges. At the time of the judges, Yahweh raised up such  'saviours' for Israel who rescued them from their enemies (cf. 12:3).  'Then the LORD [Jehovah] raised up judges, who saved [esosen] them ….' (Jdg. 2:16). Similarly Ezra, … commented on Israel's rebellion thus: '… and according to thy great mercies thou [Jehovah] didst give them saviours who saved them [soteras kai esosas] from the hand of their enemies' (Neh. 9:27). Nevertheless, Jdg 2:18 stresses that it was Yahweh [Jehovah] who is the ultimate source of the saving: 'Whenever the LORD [Jehovah] raised up judges for them, the LORD [Jehovah] was with the judge, and he saved them from the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge…'.” – p. 218, Vol. 3, Zondervan Publ., 1986. So, again, Jehovah raised up saviors for Israel, but in the highest sense the only savior was Jehovah himself, the ultimate source of all salvation. This is well-illustrated at Judges 6:14 where Jehovah commands Gideon to save Israel. But later, the saviour, Gideon, says it is Jehovah who is saving Israel (Judges 6:37). Those who look for great “mysteries” in every Bible statement and those who look for revelations of a multiple-persons-in-one God could well take these scriptures to “prove” Gideon is Jehovah. But it should be obvious to any objective student that Jehovah saved Israel through Gideon! With that understanding in mind look at Jude 25. (Unfortunately this verse is one of the thousands which were rendered incorrectly by the King James translators in 1611.) Modern translators correctly render this verse: “To the only God, our Savior through Jesus Christ [compare John 3:17]” – RSV. Also see The Jerusalem Bible. (Notice the careful distinction at Jude 25 between “the only God” and “Jesus Christ our Lord” – compare John 17:1, 3.) It might be worthwhile to examine Heb. 5:7 also – “Jesus offered up prayers … unto Him that was able to save him.” It is clear that, as Ehud, Othniel, and Gideon were saviors because Jehovah was providing salvation through them, so Jesus, in a much larger sense, is also savior because Jehovah (“the only God”) has provided salvation through him! – Compare 1 Thess. 5:9; 1 Peter 2:2 (modern translations); Rev. 7:10. It might also be interesting to examine the meaning of Jesus' personal name. Like the names “Joshua” and “Isaiah,” Jesus' name literally means “Jehovah is salvation”! …. PLEASE COMMENT ON THE ABOVE TOPIC ONLY!

Yep! that is right.

[david]

Thinker, I was wondering if you could attempt to address these points or answer any of these questions?
While you mention this topic all the time, you seem to not want to actually discuss it.

david

[Constitutionalist]

Well put!

[Constitutionalist]

Quote

Modern translators correctly render this verse: “To the only God, our Savior through Jesus Christ [compare John 3:17]” – RSV. Also see The Jerusalem Bible. (Notice the careful distinction at Jude 25 between “the only God” and “Jesus Christ our Lord” – compare John 17:1, 3.) It might be worthwhile to examine Heb. 5:7 also – “Jesus offered up prayers … unto Him that was able to save him.”

Also the Greeks did not have punctuation, it was later added. What if we moved the comma on the verse you gave?:

Modern translators correctly render this verse:
“To the only God , our Savior through Jesus Christ [compare John 3:17]” – RSV. Also see The Jerusalem Bible.

To the only God our Savior , through Jesus Christ

Well?

Just a thought.

[david]

Thinker, here is the thread you seem to be ignoring. Please answer the question I underlined. Please address my comments. You asked me to answer you. I have right here. (not in the “god” thread, as you seem to imply.)

So, WHY NOT ANSWER ME?

[david]

Quote

Christ's title as Savior implies that He is Divine.

–thinker, “title confusion trick, god”

Now, thinker only believes that being called “savior” IMPLIES that someone is divine.
Before, he was asking how it is possible that someone be called “savior” and not be divine.

THINKER, Are the others who are called savior also implied to be divine?

[GeneBalthrop]

David………I think thinker seems to have disappointed, He probably realizes he was wrong on this, Hope so, He can admit when he is wrong he has before. Your post was very good and encourages us all, brother.

Peace and love to you and yours……………gene

[KangarooJack]

Quote (david @ Dec. 26 2009,07:02)

Quote Christ's title as Savior implies that He is Divine. –thinker, “title confusion trick, god” Now, thinker only believes that being called “savior” IMPLIES that someone is divine. Before, he was asking how it is possible that someone be called “savior” and not be divine. THINKER, Are the others who are called savior also implied to be divine?

Come on David! Be honest man! You said on the Sharp's Rule thread that you started a thread called “Confusion Trick Savior which you clearly did not. You promised that my question would be answered in that thread. My question was this: Explain how Christ could be Savior without being God?

Your OP in that thread was not about Christ's title as Savior but about the way the word “god” applies to Him. You didn't even mention Christ's title as Savior and you certainly did not answer my question. I believe you were being slick and evasive about it.

I did not say that being Savior implies that someone is divine. I said that Christ's being the Savior implies that He is divine.

Titus 2 says that it was Christ who redeemed us that HE might purify for HIMSELF a people for HIS OWN POSSESSION. This means that if you are a christian then you belong to HIM. This implies divinity dude!

So let's look at Sharp's rule along with the context:

looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

It says that HE HIMSELF redeems us and makes us a pure people for HIS OWN POSSESSION. Sharp's rule stands!

Furthermore, your treatment of the word “god” was inconsistent with your own beliefs of the use of the word in John 1:1. You cut n pasted commentary from trinitarians who do not apply the “rulers” meaning in John 1:1. Neither do the JW's apply that meaning in John 1:1.

“I – I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no Savior” (Isaiah 43:11 NWT). Jesus Christ is the Savior. Therefore, He is Jehovah.

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
THEREFORE is once again shown to be the basis of your understanding-weak human logic.
You still do not know WHO God is.

[Ed J]

Quote (david @ Dec. 23 2009,16:41)

[[MESSAGE TO EVERYONE]] THIS THREAD IS ABOUT WHAT THINKER SAID ABOVE, THAT I MADE BOLD.  THAT IS ALL THIS THREAD IS ABOUT.  THAT'S IT.  PLEASE TRY TO RESPECT MY WISHES TO STAY ON TOPIC! PLEASE COMMENT ON THE ABOVE TOPIC ONLY!

Hi David,

If that is what you want to discuss, then why did you call this thread the same as the other three threads?
Is everything Title confusion trick to you?
Ed J

[banana]

Quote (Gene @ Dec. 24 2009,04:51)

David……….You are right on this one. GOD the FATHER is the ONLY (TRUE) SAVIOR, He can uses anything He wants to to accomplish that goal, Jesus, the Prophets, Judges, Nations, what ever he so choses to bring deliverance.   gene

Gene! What are you saying? David did not say that the Father is the Savior. Jesus came to save us, not His Father!!!!
And David gave some real good Scriptures. True He Jesus is our Savior. He the Father had nothing to do with that. Jesus died for us, not the Father!!!! Yes, the Father send Jesus!!!! You need to put it in the right order. Otherwise you might confuse others.
Peace and Love Irene

[terraricca]

hi Irene
i believe you should rethink again your statement,because there is nothing in this universe who goes on without God the father know it
or aprove it,it was God who decided to give his right hand to save man from is sins.
there would have not be a savior if it was not for the Father.

please check it out this is important for you ,and all of us.

[peace2all]

WOW. i think my eyes have been opened.

the holy spirit is the spirit of god. it has his attributes and powers. it gives knowlege and undersatanding and power to do miracles. it does as what god does for it is what god is.

jesus was part of it and was given it thus being able to do those things only god can do to show mankind what he was all about and to show how much he loves us ans to tell use what the meaning of life really is and how to live it.

thus its all from god so in a sense they are all one but since its only by the will of God that allows it, this why we must only worship YHWH as the almighty god.

holy spirit and jesus are a extension of him, its his way to he chose to make or show his purpose but originate form the sourse of god himself.

he can still be god's son as far as the human sense, he was the copy of the invisible god

god had said to moses tell them I AM who I AM. and jesus to the jews that before abraham was I AM.

i also lookd at the view oint of someone who would say well others have had the holy spirit upon them.

BUT THEY DID NOT COME FORTH BY MEANS OF IT AS JESUS WAS.

jesus is also eternal and is that holy spirit likewise.

maybe im wrong but that really clicks together for me and it just all fell into place and my eyes popped open as if i was given true understanding.

[peace2all]

nothing is or was possible without GOD

[peace2all]

i know he is called the son of god and can see why as far as it in human understanding in het birth he was given. but how they all are intwined or fit together or inner workings as to all three sheds light on the whole concept.

jesus used illistrations a lot to show an answer and i think maybe this is the same thing with his rank or title as son in there relationship as far as authority. man might not understand if he said i am sending my clone of me to you but said son, since he has no form the looks are not important. just as man has a son from his seed(sperm) that has his attributes dna inside it. i tell you my firstborn son is just like me personality wise literally, he is what is was growing up to a T . he came from me, a part of me. we don't share the same exact thoughts but if i choose he will do my WILL. but since god is pure and almighty he would be making basically a copy of exactness that is in total union with themselves

[NickHassan]

Hi P2a,
Jesus was a man who was later FILLED WITH the Spirit of God at the Jordan.
From that time he manifested God's nature and abilities
But he was never the God Who filled him.

[Jodi Lee]

Jesus is the MAN who saved us through the WORK and PLANNING of our Heavenly Father

John 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Jesus is CLEARLY NOT the Only True God, the Father is the ONLY TRUE God. Jesus is the human being of whom God had planned to send before time began, to be our savior.

===========================
Important note- Jesus the human Messiah was the person SENT, not a god turning into a human, or a spirit son turning into a human, but JESUS, the Human anointed with the Spirit of YHWH, WAS SENT. Jesus is the fulfillment of a PROMISE of which YHWH made before time began, which was to save the world through ONE MAN….Jesus was THAT MAN, of whom was SENT!!

Please pre-existent believers show me ONE scripture that says a spirit son was sent to become a human, or god himself sent himself and became a human? Some god or some spirit son did not CHOOSE to come down to earth and become a human for awhile and die for us, that concept goes against scripture-

John 4:34 Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work.

John 6:29  Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

John 7:16 Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me.

John 7:28 Then Jesus cried out, as He taught in the temple, saying, “You both know Me, and you know where I am from; and I have not come of Myself, but He who sent Me is true, whom you do not know.

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.

Jesus is not God, he CAME from God.  

John 12:44 Then Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me.

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

1 Peter 1:18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

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Acts 13:22 And when He had removed him, He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He gave testimony and said, 'I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.' 23 From this man's seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior–Jesus–

YHWH MADE Jesus our master and our savior.

Acts 2:36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

2 Timothy 1: 8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.  10  And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.  11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.  12  Therefore, brethren, we are debtors–not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.  13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.  14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Hebrews 5:7 who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear,  8  though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.  9  And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvationto all who obey Him, 10  called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,”  

Jesus BECAME the author of eternal salvation through being perfected, and that perfection was the perfection of a human being, and that perfection was caused by the Father's Holy Spirit.

Without the Father, Jesus is NOTHING!!

[david]

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I did not say that being Savior implies that  someone is divine. I said that Christ's being the Savior implies that He is divine.

–Thnker.

Thinker, first, thank you for responding in the right thread.

So you believe that being called “savior” implies that Christ is divine.
But if someone else is called “savior” it does not imply they are divine.

This really feels like “CIRCULAR REASONING.”

Before, did you not keep saying that Jesus being called savior was some sort of proof that he is “The” God?
If being called “savior” is not proof of divinity, but only is proof of divinity when it is in reference to Christ, then it is not really proof at all.

You can't say: 'Jesus is God BECAUSE he is called Savior.'
But when applied to others, it's not proof.

Thinker, I would like you to explain to me scripturally  why Jesus being called 'savior' indicates divinity, while others being called savior does not.

Is this going to come town to the “true savior” / “false savior” idea, as though, somehow those others called saviors were “false saviors.”  

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Titus 2 says that it was Christ who redeemed us that HE might purify for HIMSELF a people for HIS OWN POSSESSION. This means that if you are a christian then you belong to HIM. This implies divinity dude!

Couple things:  

First, why have you backed away from using the word “God.”?  You are always now saying that being called Savior implies “divinity.”  What happened to it implying he was “God?”  It's like you're trying to muddy the waters, or like you're backpeddling.  Do you believe that Jesus being called Savior is PROOF and can be used as an argument for him being “The God”?

My second comment would be: Here, you are bringing OTHER arguments into the mix.  I could start bringing up several scriptural thoughts that indicate Jesus is not the Creator/God/Almighty.

But I thought you believed that being called Savior was actually some sort of proof of something.  If it is, you certainly don't want to discuss it.  In fact, you seem to be backpeddling away from it, as fast as you can.  You are now only repeatedly saying that it indicates “divinity.”

You are basically saying that OTHER scriptures indicate he is God, therefore, when it refers to him as Savior, that use of Savior indicates divinity.  So, what actual proof is him being called Savior?  Any?

If being called Savior isn't proof IN ITSELF of being The God, then it isn't actual proof.

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So let's look at Sharp's rule along with the context: looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

Seriously?

In the Sharp's rule thread, you seemed to lately only want to discuss Jesus being called “Savior.”  In the “Title confusion Trick, god” thread, you wanted to ignore him being called god and also focus on him being called “savior.”  Here, in the Savior thread, you want to discuss Sharps rule

? ? ? What is up with this? You're still doing it!!!!

All these threads have names for reasons.

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It says that HE HIMSELF redeems us and makes us a pure people for HIS OWN POSSESSION.

So, if someone THEM SELF, IN THEIR OWN POWER saves, does that make them God, or even divine?
What do you think.  Hint:  You may want to read over my first post before you answer this and put yourself in another spot you have to backpeddle out of.

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Furthermore, your treatment of the word “god” was inconsistent with your own beliefs of the use of the word in John 1:1. You cut n pasted commentary from trinitarians who do not apply the “rulers” meaning in John 1:1. Neither do the JW's apply that meaning in John 1:1.

More stuff that's completely unrelated to this thread.  Consistent, I'll give you that.  (I don't suppose you made any comment like this in the “title confusion trick, god” thread, did you?)
And for the record, no, my treatment of the word “god” in that thread was not inconsistent.  The only point was to show you, what trinitarian 'scholars' actually admit to.  I know you'd rather ignore it.

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“I – I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no Savior” (Isaiah 43:11 NWT). Jesus Christ is the Savior. Therefore, He is Jehovah.

Thinker,

YOU COULD HAVE JUST SAID THAT.  IT IS YOUR ENTIRE ARGUMENT REGARDING THIS.

So, that being the case, let's pick it apart.  I know you don't want to go into detail on it, but I will.

1. It is said that Jehovah alone is Savior. (As he alone is also wise, holy, and god)
2. Jesus is called Savior.
3. Therefore, Jesus is Jehovah.

The logic is false BECAUSE I can make the exact same statements with “wise” or “holy” and prove that Solomon is God, or that Israel is God, or that the anointed, “holy ones” are God, etc, etc.

Ergo, the logic is false.

Being called Savior DOES NOT IN ITSELF prove a thing.  And you yourself have to know this is true, because you felt it necessary to 'circle' around and “prove” he was The God, by other means.  Then, at the very end, you come back to what is supposed to be your proof.

You really really really don't want to discuss this do you?  But you want to mention Jesus is called “Savior” whenever you get a chance.  Can't you feel that something isn't right here?

[Author]

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