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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 05 2010,18:49) Quote (david @ Feb. 05 2010,02:46) Quote (david @ Feb. 05 2010,18:28) Quote
If as you say, angels are not gods (Elohyim) “at all” why does the Bible use that exact term to describe them?Please answer this question directly.
WJ, I included the word “directly” because I wanted you to actually answer the question, not just hint at it, or allude to it, or pretend to answer it.
PLEASE ANSWER.PLEASE ANSWER.
PLEASE ANSWER.
Guess not.
DavidI sense your irritation.
Argue with scriptures…
…We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that “there is no God but one“. For “even if there are so‑called gods“, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 1 Cor 8:4, 5
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME”. Isa 43:10
And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and MAKE NO MENTION OF THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NEITHER LET IT BE HEARD OUT OF THY MOUTH. Exod 23:13
WJ
WJ, worshipping Jesus and worshipping his Father,I have already commented on all those scriptures. (Do you read my posts.) It's like 2 or 3 posts back.
But, can you not answer my question?
Quote (david @ Feb. 05 2010,02:43) WJ, And what is the word, the orginal Hebrew word that some paraphrase or whatever? I don't consider the children's Bible's, the ones with pictures in them to be of much use. Do you? As my first post says:
Quote The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon, 1979, Hendrickson, p. 43: Elohim: “a. rulers, judges, either as divine representatives at sacred places or as reflecting divine majesty and power…. b. divine ones, superhuman beings including God and angels…. c. angels Ps. 97:7…”
Angels are clearly called gods (elohim) at Ps. 8:5, 6. We know this because this passage is quoted at Heb. 2:6, 7, and there the word “angels” is used (in place of elohim in the OT) in NT Greek. The very trinitarian New American Bible, St. Joseph ed., 1970, says in a footnote for Ps. 8:6 –
“The angels: in Hebrew, elohim, which is the ordinary word for 'God' or 'the gods'; hence the ancient versions generally understood the term as referring to heavenly spirits [angels].”
DavidWhat childrens Bible?
You mean the NWT that was translated by Non-Biblical Hebrew and Greek scholars!
The commentator has failed to see that the NT interprets the Old. The word “Theos” is not found in the book of Hebrews for Angels. The Greek word for Angels invariably is “aggelos” not “Theos”.
I think the writer of Hebrews understood the Hebrew text better than he!
WJ
Quote (david @ Feb. 05 2010,18:51) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 05 2010,18:46) Quote (david @ Feb. 05 2010,02:40) WJ, What happens when we include all the scriptures?
What happens if we look at your scriptures above, with the other scriptures that refer to angels, judges, etc as “gods.”?
David
What happens is you realize that the word “'elohiym” does not always mean “a god” but can mean Angel, rulers, judges mighty ones and not the other way around!
WJ
I think you phrased that wrong. Elohiym does mean “god.” But it can refer to angels, rulers, etc.Sometimes, Bibles that aren't meant for study purposes, make things simple for us. They take Elohiym, which literally means “god” and replace it with “angel” which in Hebrew, is not Elohiym.
Of course, that is what was specifically meant, “angel” but that is not what was specifically said. What this tells us is that angels are Elohiym (gods.)
Let me make this easier.If I said “I drove the vehicle to Fred's.”
And I happened to know that the vehicle was more specifically an SUV, I could translate that sentence: “I drove the SUV to Fred's.”That might be what I meant, and it might be easier to understand, but it's not what I said. What I said was I drove the vehicle to Fred's. What you should be able to gather from this, is that an SUV is a type of vehicle.
Quote David What childrens Bible?
You mean the NWT
No, I assumed you were using one of those picture Bible's that paraphrases things. My Bible has been described as “hyper-literal,” and yes, they said it was a bad thing, making it a hard read. But what it is not, is a picture Bible, like I imagine you must be referring to. I hate those paraphrase things.
Quote (david @ Feb. 05 2010,02:51) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 05 2010,18:46) Quote (david @ Feb. 05 2010,02:40) WJ, What happens when we include all the scriptures?
What happens if we look at your scriptures above, with the other scriptures that refer to angels, judges, etc as “gods.”?
David
What happens is you realize that the word “'elohiym” does not always mean “a god” but can mean Angel, rulers, judges mighty ones and not the other way around!
WJ
I think you phrased that wrong. Elohiym does mean “god.” But it can refer to angels, rulers, etc.Sometimes, Bibles that aren't meant for study purposes, make things simple for us. They take Elohiym, which literally means “god” and replace it with “angel” which in Hebrew, is not Elohiym.
Of course, that is what was specifically meant, “angel” but that is not what was specifically said. What this tells us is that angels are Elohiym (gods.)
DavidThere is no NT example for what you say in regards to Angels.
The 1st chapter of Hebrews is a prime example of this. The word “aggelos” is used in every case in the NT except for one for Angels.
WJ
Quote The Greek word for Angels invariably is “aggelos” not “Theos”. Right, and the Hebrew words for God and Angel are different too.
Just as the english words SUV and vehicle are different.
So what does it mean when someone is speaking of angels and refers to them as gods?
I guess that's the question? I can answer it because I know what 'god' means, powerful one. You cannot answer it, because you don't accept that but see 'god' only in terms of worship.
Were the angels being worshiped?
Quote (david @ Feb. 05 2010,02:57) Quote (david @ Feb. 05 2010,18:51) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 05 2010,18:46) Quote (david @ Feb. 05 2010,02:40) WJ, What happens when we include all the scriptures?
What happens if we look at your scriptures above, with the other scriptures that refer to angels, judges, etc as “gods.”?
David
What happens is you realize that the word “'elohiym” does not always mean “a god” but can mean Angel, rulers, judges mighty ones and not the other way around!
WJ
I think you phrased that wrong. Elohiym does mean “god.” But it can refer to angels, rulers, etc.Sometimes, Bibles that aren't meant for study purposes, make things simple for us. They take Elohiym, which literally means “god” and replace it with “angel” which in Hebrew, is not Elohiym.
Of course, that is what was specifically meant, “angel” but that is not what was specifically said. What this tells us is that angels are Elohiym (gods.)
Let me make this easier.If I said “I drove the vehicle to Fred's.”
And I happened to know that the vehicle was more specifically an SUV, I could translate that sentence: “I drove the SUV to Fred's.”That might be what I meant, and it might be easier to understand, but it's not what I said. What I said was I drove the vehicle to Fred's. What you should be able to gather from this, is that an SUV is a type of vehicle.
DavidWhat you are advocating is there are other types of gods!
Not scriptural, but in fact has its roots in pagan Greek mythology!
WJ
Quote (david @ Feb. 05 2010,03:02) Quote The Greek word for Angels invariably is “aggelos” not “Theos”. Right, and the Hebrew words for God and Angel are different too.
Just as the english words SUV and vehicle are different.
So what does it mean when someone is speaking of angels and refers to them as gods?
I guess that's the question? I can answer it because I know what 'god' means, powerful one. You cannot answer it, because you don't accept that but see 'god' only in terms of worship.
Were the angels being worshiped?
DavidDid I miss something or did you just disagree with the writer of Hebrews who took the word “'elohiym” from Psalms 8:5,6 and replaced it with “aggelos” in Heb 2:6, 7?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 05 2010,02:34) Quote (david @ Feb. 05 2010,02:29) Quote Why do you insist on teaching and promoting Polytheism? –WJ
WJ, please name the other gods I worship.
If anyone is promoting Polytheism, it is you, “Worshipping Jesus.” Your very name denotes that you are polytheistic….that is, unless you don't worship the Father, as Jesus did.
hmmmm.
DavidI worship Jesus as God because scriptures call him Lord and God and many worshipped him!
But tell me David, Is Jesus your god!
Your Bible says he is “a god”, then you should not have a problem confessing him as “Your god” right?
HMMM!
BumpQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 05 2010,02:41) Quote (david @ Feb. 05 2010,02:29) Quote Why do you insist on teaching and promoting Polytheism? –WJ
WJ, please name the other gods I worship.
If anyone is promoting Polytheism, it is you, “Worshipping Jesus.” Your very name denotes that you are polytheistic….that is, unless you don't worship the Father, as Jesus did.
hmmmm.
DavidAlso tell me why I never hear of you speaking of Gods today.
Tell me who in this day we live in is clasified as “a god” in your opinion.
Is it President Obama?
The head of watchtower?
Or have all the “gods” died with the OT prophets?
HMMM?
Must not be gods at all huh?
When have you called your last visit by an Angel a visit with “a god”?
Can you find me where the Apostles met with Angels and called them “God” Theos?
Didn't think so!
WJ
BumpHi All
The definition of Polytheism is the belief in more than one God!
Polytheism
The worship of or belief in more than one god.
(American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language)Polytheism
belief in several deities: the worship of or belief in more than one deity, especially several deities
(Encarta® World English Dictionary, North American Edition)Polytheism
belief in or worship of more than one god
(Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary, 11th Edition)Polytheism
belief in many different gods
(Cambridge International Dictionary of English)Polytheism
belief in or worship of many gods, or more than one god
(Webster's New World College Dictionary, 4th Ed.)Polytheism
the belief in more than one god.
(The Wordsmyth English Dictionary-Thesaurus)Polytheism
the belief in or worship of more than one god
(Cambridge Dictionary of American English)Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 06 2010,06:22) Hi All The definition of Polytheism is the belief in more than one God!
Polytheism
The worship of or belief in more than one god.
(American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language)Polytheism
belief in several deities: the worship of or belief in more than one deity, especially several deities
(Encarta® World English Dictionary, North American Edition)Polytheism
belief in or worship of more than one god
(Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary, 11th Edition)Polytheism
belief in many different gods
(Cambridge International Dictionary of English)Polytheism
belief in or worship of many gods, or more than one god
(Webster's New World College Dictionary, 4th Ed.)Polytheism
the belief in more than one god.
(The Wordsmyth English Dictionary-Thesaurus)Polytheism
the belief in or worship of more than one god
(Cambridge Dictionary of American English)Blessings WJ
I would like to note that the Bible does not use the word “polytheism.”What it does do, is, the Bible says that worshipping other gods is bad.
So, while it doesn't use the word “polytheism,” it definitely says worshiping more than one god is bad.I think we all agree on that.
The question is:
Is “Worshipping Jesus” worshipping more than one God?
Normal everyday logic suggests he is. (Unless he doesn't also worship Jesus' Father.)
By definition, and by normal logic, WJ fits the definition of polytheistic ON BOTH ACCOUNTS: He both believes in and worships more than one God.
He can say they are the same God, but being as they are shown to be separate in heaven, they are not the same being.
Therefore, logically, WJ is doing something THE BIBLE (not dictionaries) condemns.
The Bible (not dictionaries) plainly speaks of angels as “gods” and human judges as being called “gods.” (See all the trinitarian sources quoted on the first post.)
So, for the Bible not to contradict itself, either we close our eyes to what all those trinitarians agree on, and pretend that in the Bible there are only false gods or the true God, OR, we open our eyes and realize that in the BIBLE, sometimes humans and angels were called gods, and not in a false god sense.
Along comes someone and makes up a definition. That NON-BIBLICAL definition seems to be made up to describe those who believe in AND worship more than one god.
Understand: The Bible does not say: “polytheism is wrong.” It says that the worship of other gods is wrong.
Does WJ rely on the Bible or on human dictionaries? Further, does he himself not worship Jesus AND his Father?
Quote David What you are advocating is there are other types of gods!
Not scriptural, but in fact has its roots in pagan Greek mythology!
WJ
No, I'm explaining to you (rather patiently I might add) that the BIBLE doesn't use the word “god” in the way you do, at least, not as a whole. In the Bible AS A WHOLE, the word “god” is a descriptive word. It doesn't describe the “nature” of a being, any more than the word “king” makes a “king” different from other humans. There are human kings. There are heavenly kings. The word can be and is applied to both, just as the word “god” is in scripture.
WJ, I think you missed my question. For the third time:
If as you say, angels are not gods (Elohyim) “at all” why does the Bible use that exact term to describe them?
Please answer this question directly.
I think I understand your confusion. It seems that you hold that “God” = “creator” or “someone worshiped.” It does not mean that, although Jehovah God of the bible is both Creator and worshiped. I think that is what causes the confusion. But to understand what “god” means, we have to understand how the Bible uses it as a whole, not just isolating the 99% that it refers to our Creator.
Example:
If the word “Lord” was used almost exclusively of the Creator, then people would associate that word “lord” with “creator.” Of course, that word is used quite often of Jehovah (and Jesus, and many others.) But the fact that it is sometimes used of others, TELLS US WHAT, WJ? ? ? ? ?Well, for one, it tells us that “lord” does not mean “Creator who we worship.” We know it basically means “master,” and it can apply to many different ones. But if that word “lord” was used 99.9% of the time with reference to Jehovah, I can see how some would be confused. Can you?
Hi All,
WJ gives us a definition of Polytheism that is a definition of what Trinitarians believe in … And you are defending yourselves as if You are the Gods Worshippers?
Worship the One God and Him only.
How us that Polytheism, that you should need to defend it?
Is it not the Trinity Doctrine that says: ” The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God”
But then says 'uh oh! Right, yeah, but these three Gods are actually just One God, for the record, you understand…, quick let's get out of here before they realise what we just said…s**t, I had my microphone still on, I wonder if anyone heard that 'private' last bit?'
Well yes, I did, for one.
Quote (JustAskin @ April 12 2010,19:32) Hi All, WJ gives us a definition of Polytheism that is a definition of what Trinitarians believe in … And you are defending yourselves as if You are the Gods Worshippers?
Worship the One God and Him only.
How us that Polytheism, that you should need to defend it?
Is it not the Trinity Doctrine that says: ” The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God”
But then says 'uh oh! Right, yeah, but these three Gods are actually just One God, for the record, you understand…, quick let's get out of here before they realise what we just said…s**t, I had my microphone still on, I wonder if anyone heard that 'private' last bit?'
Well yes, I did, for one.
Hi JustAskin,I responded to your Post in Click Here
I'm telling you about it in this Post, because you would probably not even know I did otherwise!
David……..You are right the Word GOD is a descriptor Word, BASE Meaning is POWERS.
peace and love…………….gene
Gene,
This is Revelation, indeed.
Do you mean to say that all this time, all these debators, all these experts, theologans, selfmade professors, scholars, demi-gods and brokenhorn blowers, did not know that the word 'God' is a title pertaining to one of extreme, or all Power, Majesty, Supremes, Mightiest, Excelling beyond all others, etc.
It is no wonder, the, that there is so much confusion over what and who is called 'God'.
Angels are powerful creatures but not all powerful.
Mankind has a range of powers, not extreme by any means, but collectively greater than all animal, so mankind is 'God' over the animal (Quizically, we are meant to 'Husband' them?)Jesus possesses great power but is not Supreme nor all powerful as the power, the majesty, the Might, comes as a gift from one who holds all power.
No wise King or Ruler, ever gives away more than a comfortable amount of his kingdom (what is the usual saying: 'Up To even Half my kingdom' that is, up to 49.5% – the given is never (quite) equal to the giver)So, all, how about defining terms next time a debate seems to be going around in circles.
Perhaps neither, actually understand what either of you are actually talking about!
your understanding that is
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