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David………Con has properly presented it , Jesus did (NOT) preexist his Berth That is another false teaching as the Trinity is also. I Know the JW's believe Jesus is Michale the archangel , but that is also a false teaching brother. Jesus only existed prior to his berth in the Plan and WILL of GOD the FATHER , who at the proper times Brought Him forth, the First Human from mankind to be perfected and raised from the dead. God the Father is dealing with Mankind, not some super being or demigods He reincarnated into a human. Just common sense should show you this David.
peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene
Quote (terraricca @ Dec. 26 2009,22:25) hi Ron
you don't believe in the preexistence of Christ has the” word” with what i read of you.That's my problem with the pre-existence idea- it's nowhere in the Old Testament.
do i read you right??
Explain that again, I didnt quite understand your question.Sorry,
RonQuote (Ed J @ Dec. 27 2009,20:39) Quote (david @ Dec. 27 2009,19:29) Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 27 2009,09:22) Quote (david @ Dec. 27 2009,07:27) I have said that Jehovah created things “through” Jesus, as the scripture says.
Hi David,You have answered my question, but now you present another…
Please show where in Scripture it says what you now say?God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
It's all over the place, Ed.Scriptures that come to mind:
John 1:3,10;
1 Cor 8:6; Col 1:16; heb 1:2
Hi David,OK, Hebrews 1:2 is a hit.
Ed J
Hi Ed. I'm sure there's more than one “hit” in there.Quote That's my problem with the pre-existence idea- it's nowhere in the Old Testament. So would believers have been held in ignorance of this fact for 4000 years?
People are told what they need to be told.
EPHESIANS 3:5
“In other generations this [secret] was not made known to the sons of men as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by spirit,”
COLOSSIANS 1:26
“the sacred secret that was hidden from the past systems of things and from the past generations. But now it has been made manifest to his holy ones,”Quote (david @ Dec. 28 2009,13:19) Quote That's my problem with the pre-existence idea- it's nowhere in the Old Testament. So would believers have been held in ignorance of this fact for 4000 years?
People are told what they need to be told.
EPHESIANS 3:5
“In other generations this [secret] was not made known to the sons of men as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by spirit,”
COLOSSIANS 1:26
“the sacred secret that was hidden from the past systems of things and from the past generations. But now it has been made manifest to his holy ones,”
The message of the gospel is the mystery not the preexistence of Jesus.Jesus is a human being just like any other human being except that he truly has perfect faith. “The righteous live by faith”.
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hi all
i am a fisher man ,so i have a fisherman question, (1)why no man can see God and live,? (2) why was it that at the mountain in the dessert wen God approach the Montaigne it was burning and noisy,? (3)we all agree that God create all things but tell me what did he created first?, (4)we all have learn and most of us trough pictures the vastness of the universe,could you tell me on witch rock God as is coffee,or how big or how small you think God is?
(5)you will tell me he is a spirit ,not physical right,so what is a spirit?do spirit have thrones to sit on,if they do ,they should have something to sit whit like a rear end.?(6)we know that the spirit is also thoughts what also can be translated into will,now what would happen if God would have created us without a body,we be still to his image is it ,yes God is spirit,but we would not be able to do anything beside thinking of a many things to do .is it not so ?(7)i believe God created The word who became Christ in time what God calls his only begotten son the first of all creation ,the means of the ability to performing what he has make his intention to do,that was to create the universe and us and everything in it.
this is my deepest believe and understanding of the scriptures.
terraricca,
Heaven is God's throne and Earth is his footstool. Does that mean he has feet? If so they are some mighty big feet and we are the critters who occupy his footstool smelling his feet while the angels get to smell other parts of his anatomy. Mind you he has some mighty sweet feet.
I am not sure what kind of spirit God is as there are more than one kind of spirit just as their are more than one kind of flesh. I am told that God is love and if we do not know love then we do not know God. I do not believe that means that God is the emotion of love.
Angels appear to be a different kind of spirit as they take physical form. I assume demons are same kind of spirit at their unfallen kindred. Some say demons and fallen angels are not the same type of beings.
God planned for Jesus from the the beginning and the plan came to fruition approximately two thousand years ago. Scripture states just that but other choose to read more into it.
Hi KW,
Where does scripture say demons are fallen angels?The only ones fallen from grace now are in Tartarus while Rev describes a time when one third of the heavenly angels are thrown to earth. Demons were present on earth at the time of Jesus so this is not them.
Quote (banana @ Dec. 25 2009,09:42) thinker We who know that God is a title will never make Jesus a deity like His Father is. Jesus had a beginning. And Scriptures proof so.
Col. 1:15
Rev. 3:14
And by Jesus own word He said this in
John 17:5 And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the world was. And in
John 1:1 In the beginning, notice in the beginning there was the Word and the Word was God and was with God.
verse 14 and the Word became flesh.
Even though some will say that it is Wisdom having been born, but using common sense will tell you that God always had wisdom.
Proverb 8:22-30
I read Chapter 9 and say again how ridiculous it is that it says Wisdom has built the house…
Peace and Love Irene
“” verses 22-31 associate the creative work of the preincarnate christ(john1:1-2 , 1 col. 1:15-17) who is revelaed as the wisdom of god ( 1 cor. 1:24 , col. 2:3 ) the major emphasis of the context is on god's own use of wisom in creating the universe.those who would urge a reference to chriat he some times go on t opoint out that the hebrew word translated “possessed” (v.22) is rendered “created” in the greek transltion of the old testament. thus inferring that christ is les than fully eternal god.
however, although the hebrew word (qanah) can at times be pressed to bear such as meaning (ps.139:13) it is basically means “acquire” or possess(that which has been aquired).
translation :possess: is clearly the meaning elsewhere in proverbs and best fits the context here. thus the point is that in setting out to create the universe, god utilized wisdom as a basic principle procedure””
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 29 2009,02:43) Hi KW,
Where does scripture say demons are fallen angels?The only ones fallen from grace now are in Tartarus while Rev describes a time when one third of the heavenly angels are thrown to earth. Demons were present on earth at the time of Jesus so this is not them.
Satan is a fallen angel and he behaves like a demon.Nick Hassan,
Here is a passage to consider.
Psalms 107:10-16(KJV) reads:
Quote Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron;
Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High:
Therefore he brought down their heart with labour; they fell down, and there was none to help.
Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses.
He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder.
Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men!
For he hath broken the gates of brass, and cut the bars of iron in sunder.
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
Answering the question above (which people here tend to not want to do) will prove that there is a third option….it will prove that the very idea that everyone called “god” is either “the Almighty God” or “a false god.”
Many on here don't want to touch this question. It's almost like they can't see it. I'm doing my best to make it more visible. But even if they somehow do manage to read those words, how will they tap dance around them?
Quote (david @ Jan. 30 2010,01:57) Were the angels “The God” or “false gods”?
DavidThe Angels are not Gods at all!
The word “Eloyim” can be interpreted as kings, judges, men, or angels depending on context!
The problem you have is the NT scriptures never once refer to Angels as “Theos” or not once is there any evidence of the followers of Christ calling anyone “Their Theos” but the Father and Jesus!
…We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that “there is no God but one“. For “even if there are so‑called gods“, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 1 Cor 8:4, 5
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: “BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED, NEITHER SHALL THERE BE AFTER ME”. Isa 43:10
And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and MAKE NO MENTION OF THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, NEITHER LET IT BE HEARD OUT OF THY MOUTH. Exod 23:13
Are you still promoting Polytheism?
WJ
WJ
you are polytheist triple single.what David try to say i believe is no matter what, there are only two possibilities, either you worship God or the devil, because those are the only two options.
and in god we trust and believe as it is written in the untwisted scriptures.
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 25 2009,08:36) There is a direct statement about Yeshua HaMoshiach [Jesus] being the Son of Yahovah in the Psalms: “…He said to me, 'You [Yeshua HaMoshiach/Jesus] are my son, today I [Yahovah] have begotten you.” Psalm 2:7 There were plans, from the beginning, to make Yeshua HaMoshiach [Jesus] a human as shown in Deuteronomy: “…he [Yahovah] will raise up for you a Prophet [Yeshua HaMoshiach/Jesus] like me [Moses], an Israeli, a man to whom you must listen and whom you must obey.” Deuteronomy 18:15, TLB; see also Acts 3:22
During His ministry on Earth, Yeshua HaMoshiach [Jesus] stated that He taught not His own wisdom, but that of His Father, Yahovah: “For I have not spoken on my own authority; the Father who sent me has himself given me commandment what to say and what to speak.” John 12:49
So many bible verses to prove the trinity false!
Over a hundred so far!
Just in the New Testament!
Examine your own Bibles as to the accuracy!
Yeshua HaMoshiach was not 'Elohim, but 'Elohim's Son!
Matthew 3:16-17; 8:29; 11:27; 12:18; 14:33; 16:16-17; 17:5; 27:54
Mark 5:7; 15:39
Luke 1:32; 1:35; 8:28; 9:35; 10:22
John 1:13; 1:18; 1:34; 1:49; 3:16; 5:19-23; 5:37; 6:40; 6:69; 8:18; 8:42; 10:15; 10:36; 11:4; 12:49-50; 14:13; 14:23; 14:28; 16:17; 17:1-16; 20:17; 20:31
Acts 2:22-24; 3:13; 3:26; 9:20
Romans 1:4; 5:10; 8:29
1 Corinthians 11:3; 15:28
2 Corinthians 1:19
Galatians 4:4
Philippians 2:9
Colossians 1:13
1 Thessalonians 1:10
1 Timothy 2:5
Hebrews 1:2; 2:9; 4:14; 5:7-8
1 Peter 1:3
2 Peter 1:17
1 John 1:3; 2:22; 3:23; 4:10; 4:14-15; 5:11-12
2 John 1:9
Revelation 2:18Atleast sixty Bible verses which prove without a doubt that Yeshua HaMoshiach [Jesus] is not 'Elohim, but instead is SON of 'Elohim.
Matthew 3:16-17; 8:29; 11:27; 12:18; 14:33; 16:16; 17:5; 27:54
Mark 5:7; 15:39
Luke 1:32; 8:28; 9:35; 10:22
John 1:18; 1:34; 1:49; 3:16; 5:19-23; 6:40; 6:69; 8:42; 10:15; 11:4; 12:49-50; 14:13; 14:23; 14:28; 16:17; 17:1-26
Acts 2:22-24; 3:13; 3:26; 9:20
Romans 1:4; 5:10; 8:13; 8:29-32
1 Corinthians 11:3; 15:28
2 Corinthians 1:19
Galatians 4:4
Colossians 1:13
1 Thessalonians 1:10
Hebrews 1:2; 4:14; 5:8; 7:3; 11:17
2 Peter 1:17
1 John 1:3; 1:22; 3:23; 4:10; 4:14-15; 5:6; 5:11-12
2 John 1:9
Revelation 2:8Trinitarians use John 1:1 as the proof that Yahovah and Yeshua HaMoshiach [Jesus] are one and the same:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with G-d, and the Word was G-d.” John 1:1, KJV
And on the surface it seems rather straight forward the relationship of Yahovah and Yeshua HaMoshiach [Jesus].
But truth does not come from a single Bible verses taken out of context or blindly accepted without some study and research, now does it.
The Greek manuscripts of John 1:1 show that the Greek definite article is used to distinguish Yahovah as “the G-d” from his Son.”
The Emphatic Diaglott Containing the Original Greek Text of What Is Commonly Styled the New Testament gives the correct translation:
“In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the G-d, and a god was the word.” John 1:1, DGT)
Another Trinity theory is in 1John 5:7-8:
“For there are three that bear record [in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth], the spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one.” 1 John 5:7-8, KJV
The oldest and most reliable Bible manuscripts do not include the words withing the brackets in the above scripture and most recognized Bible scholars do not recognize them as part of the original text.
The Revised Standard Version states:
“And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth. There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree.” 1John 5:7-8, also see NIV, MEB, NEB, TLB, GNB, NAS for further proof.
Con……..Good post, i noticed, no thinker and WJ response. These Trinitarians when backed into a corner just seem to vanish and appear in another part of the house.peace and love………………….gene
Quote (Gene @ Jan. 30 2010,10:17) Con……..Good post, i noticed, no thinker and WJ response. These Trinitarians when backed into a corner just seem to vanish and appear in another part of the house. peace and love………………….gene
GeneSometimes it is not worth the time to engage a long post. But since you seem to think that we are running from something, it only takes one point to invalidate his whole post.
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Dec. 26 2009,21:33) Heb. 1:2 is another passage misunderstood to believe that Yashuw'ah created the earth. We read of “the Son… by whom [Gk. dia] He [Yahuweh] also made the worlds [Gk. aion]”…..
In almost every case where the word aion occurs in the New Testament, it doesn’t mean ‘the physical planet earth’, but rather an age or situation on the earth, rather than the physical planet.
The problem is if you say that this verse doesn’t mean the physical earth then it doesn’t help your cause at all.Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, “by whom also he made the worlds. (aion) Heb 1:2
The Greek word for “Worlds” is Strong's G165 – aiōn which means…
1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age ”;Which is greater, for Jesus to create the heavens and the earth, (Verse 10) or for him to create time itself?
Gene you should not assume that Jack and myself run from anything. Sometimes a post is so long it is not worth the time. Sometimes it is such hogwash it’s not worthy of a response. Sometimes we just do not care to indulge the source.
How many post have you left unanswered Gene?
Blessings WJ
WJ………..You need to look more closely at the word (BY) it can Just as Equally mean (FOR) Check it out again, I know you have before i am sure. Jodi's explanation of this is right IMO. GOD the FATHER said HE (ALONE) CREATED the EARTH and EVERYTHING IN IT. But You Trinitarians and Preexistences simply tare the out of your bibles and treat it as if it does not exist.
Now let consider something for a second , if You have a Scripture that is questionable (like the use of the word (by) or (for) or (through) would it not be prudent to compare (ALL) text dealing with the Subject before making a unclear texts you rule or measure you use. There are many many many many scripture that say GOD ALONE is the ONLY TRUE GOD and that HE ALONE CREATED all things. Why ignor them or force the text to a FALSE Conclusion AS THE trinity and preexistences do. Learn to listen and Believe exactly what Jesus SAID. And a lot of confusion would be devolved. The truth is the (SUM) of scriptures, no some out of context or forced text. I have ask many times before for (ONE) Place where JESUS SAID HE IS ALMIGHTY GOD HIMSELF> OR WHERE HE EVER SAID HE CREATED ANYTHING MUCH LESS THE WHOLE WORLD, THERE IS NOT SUCH SCRIPTURES THAT SAY THAT. but ther are scripture that denie Jesus is a GOD and deny he created everything , out of his own mouth. So why should anyone believe a person pushing false teachings as the trinity and preexistences. IMO
Quote (Gene @ Jan. 31 2010,14:36) WJ………..You need to look more closely at the word (BY) it can Just as Equally mean (FOR) Check it out again, I know you have before i amd sure. Jodi's explanation of this is right IMO. GOD the FATHER said HE (ALONE) CREATED the EARTH and EVERYTHING IN IT. But You Trinitarians and Preexistences simply tare the out of your bibles and treat it as if it does not exist. Now let consider something for a second , if You have a Scripture that is questionable (like the use of the word (by) or (for) or (through) would it not be prudent to compare (ALL) text dealing with the Subject before making a unclear texts you rule or measure you use. There are many many many many scripture that say GOD ALONE is the ONLY TRUE GOD and that HE ALONE CREATED all things. Why ignor them or force the text to a FALSE Conclusion AS THE trinity and preexistences do. Learn to listen and Believe exactly what Jesus SAID. And a lot of confusion would be devolved. The truth is the (SUM) of scriptures, no some out of context or forced text. I have ask many times before for (ONE) Place where JESUS SAID HE IS ALMIGHTY GOD HIMSELF> OR WHERE HE EVER SAID HE CREATED ANYTHING MUCH LESS THE WHOLE WORLD, THERE IS NOT SUCH SCRIPTURES THAT SAY THAT. but ther are scripture that denie Jesus is a GOD and deny he created everything , out of his own mouth. So why should anyone believe a person pushing false teachings as the trinity and preexistences. IMO
GeneIt is more like why you do not believe in the Plural nature of God, millions believe he is!
But that is your choice and as far as Heb 1:2 the writer confirms his intent in verse 10 when he shows the Father attributing the creation of the universe with Jesus own hands!
That is clear. You can choose not to believe it if you like, but the scriptures tell us all things came into being by him (Jesus) and nothing came into being without him! John 1:3.
Blessings WJ
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