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I would like your opinion on this subject. For many fail to do pay them. Mal. 3:8 speaks very strongly on this but may we study more on this topic. Thank You. …….happyman
1 John 3
14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.
15 Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.
16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.
17 If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?
18 Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.The giving here is primarily the giving of yourself and the most important motivation in our lives, should be love. Through this love we have a wonderful assurance of salvation and the opposite applies if we are not walking in love as such a person is hateful and murderous.
Now love is not about nice sentiments rather a fruitful outworking of a life surrendered, as Christ laid his life down for us. It consists of actions without hipocrisy or insincerity primarily toward our brothers and sisters in the faith.
We are told that obedience is better than sacrifice and that we should be a debtor to no man other than the debt of love. So along with giving, we must also make sure that our finances are in order and that we pay our debts including our taxes.
Keeping our finances in order means recognising what our true bills are and to live with in our means. We shouldn't live extravagantly, so we will be able to bless others. If we spend all our money on ourselves with no thought of others, how can we say that we love others as we love ourself.
Our first line of giving should be to look after our dependant families, flatmates and others in our work places or neigborhood to see that they are clothed, fed and have the necessary basics of life.
Of special importance are our brothers and sisters in the faith, widows, the poor and unfortunate. When we give to them, we are giving to Jesus.
See Matthew 10:42 & Matthew 25:31-40.
&
Isaiah 58:6-7
6 “Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke?
7 Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter- when you see the naked, to clothe him, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?When we give, we should be wary of ministries that use excessive amounts of money for unnecessary expenses (5 star hotels) and to be wary that the individuals we give to are not going to spend the money on alcohol cigarettes or substance abuse. We should find a persons real need and meet that if we can. We should also do all in the name of Jesus, that our Heavenly Father may get the praise.
One of our important priorities when giving is to bless those who have spirtually blessed us. We should share with those who serve and toil in the gospel and the five fold ministries of apostles, prophets, elders, teachers and evangelists. For what is it if we give our money to those who give us the things of God. We should be aware that many such people may not be operating under a denomination and we should recognise their ministries by their fruit, not by their label.
It is not a matter of sermon to our ears and money out of our pockets. God's Kingdom is not financed by ATMs (Automatic Teller Machines) rather by careful giving where the Spirit leads.
It is a sad thing that most of the money that is given by Christians is used to support denominations with very little left over to give to the poor and needy. It is better for you to give directly if you can, to make sure that the money is going to something worthy rather lifting up a denomination for it's own names sake.
Each person must give as he or she has made up their mind to and we should never give under compulsion. This includes being made to feel guilty by a sermon and then giving to that person in response. This kind of extortion is not acceptable and giving under compulsion receives no reward. Rather we should give out of the generosity of our heart as God loves a cheerful giver.
So given this foundation, my next post will be on tithing.
Hey t8,
When are you going to finish this post, on the teaching section is says you are working on it… I am just interested.
I would love to share your thoughts as i have grown up in a movement that uses Malachai 3 to make you feel bad if you dont tithe, says you are under a curse and implies that one is not able to receive the blessing that God wants to pour out if the tithe is not met. These same people, live very well yet those that help in working for the gospel or should i say organisation do it voluntarily, sacrificing hours of time with no pay… This to me seems like hippocrasy. We build expensive buildings, establish wonderful conferences that claim thousands of salvations, lives changed and so prove the fruit of the ministry, yet Antony Robinson or any other motivational speaker who knows how people work and can make people feel good about themselves could make the same claims.
However i do not see the tithing principle as in the Old Testament taught by Paul in the New Testament. He teaches cheerful giving, what you have purposed in your heart to give, as you stated out of a heart of generositly, giving to the work of the ministry and looking after those who minister.
I have not specifically tithed in the way they say I should, but have given to people, friends and strangers where i see a need arise, and to various works that I know need money for what they are doing, ie missions and christian organisations who help the poor and helpless.
God has continued to bless and more so now than when i was tithing my 10%.
I am reading up on it but was wondering wether or not you had any further information to share on this subject.
Am I right to think that in the old testament — that the Tithe was to be brought to the storehouse, the place that God appointed. Deuteronomy mentions is a couple of times. (Deut 14:22 – 29 & 26:1-15) Each time it mentions that this event was to take place on the third year and it is my understanding that they were to present it to the Lord, say a couple of lines of rememberance, and then eat what they had brought. Share it with the levite, fatherless, strangers and widow and have a time of rejoicing…
I am only just begining my search on this subject and so know only a little, is there just one tithe or am I right in what I see as three tithes. They seem to say somethings that are similar and other things that are different. So I am not too sure if there are different tithes for different times.
Your thoughts
What the religious teachers won't tell you is that the curses pronounced in Malachi are not on the laity but rather on the clergy! It was the religious leaders themselves who had profaned the offerings. Start reading in Chapter 2 and notice that God is talking to the priests (2:1). Verse 3:3 refers to the “sons of Levi”, which is the priesthood. It's either ironic, amusing, or downright disgusting (depending on the spirit that is present within you when you become aware of this) that they have taken a passage that warns them of their shortcomings and turned it against their followers to extort money from them through fear and guilt. At the moment, I am shaking my head sadly and sighing. Do you think that they feel any fear or guilt for making merchandise of God? I have no desire to exchange places with them, that's for sure.
Tithing is DEFINITELY NOT a New Testament teaching. Generously giving from the heart, as t8 noted, IS. Tithing is WORKS; Giving is GRACE.
The ONLY reason for a preacher (or church) to preach tithing is for financial reasons. The take will consistently be more if the congregation gives 10% of their income, as opposed to what the Holy Spirit leads them to give (which, for MOST churches, would be ZILCH). The ONLY ones prospering in the 'Prosperity Churches' are those standing behind the pulpits exhorting (or is that extorting?) EVERYONE ELSE to give, even that which they don't even have (such as using credit cards).
Feel moved to help? Don't be duped into giving money to churches or pastors using the money for material things (mostly for themselves). Look around in your own neighborhood and see just how many needy people there are right in your own 'backyard'. I, unlike t8's advice, don't worry what they will spend the money on (judge the person's worthiness). However, if I can pay the crackhead's water bill instead of giving him/her potential crack money, I will prudently do so. Still, whether the drunkard will buy food or drink does not concern me…I let God work his heart. We must be careful to NOT be judgmental, yet we do need to exercise some discernment…let your conscience be your guide.
Hi,
I quite agree bic that tithing is of the OT and should not be presented as a NT teaching. However it is also true that love for the brothers insists that we share our blessings. We have yet to reach the standard of giving that was shown in the book of Acts.It is also true that God's messengers are expected to be supported in their work and it is our joyful privilege to give to them. But also, like Paul the tentmaker, they are also expected to help support themselves. Likewise it is not meant to be just support to those who pastor.
So the remaining questions are who are God's people? Are those who claim to be teaching what he said to teach or are they false teachers? Where is the evidence that God's works of power are being done through them?
Religion can be quite a successful activity from man's point of view even if God plays no part in it whatsoever. In fact this reality applies to the most successful religions-but God abhors their seductive and clever behaviours.
Tithing is not a requirement in the New Testament and to do so would actually be anti Christ. Now I am going to explain this by telling you about another biblical subject called communion. Communion is communication! Remember that for a moment.
Luk 22:19 He took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and gave to them, saying, “This is my body which is given for you. Do this in memory of me.”
Luk 22:20 Likewise, he took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.
Luk 22:21 But behold, the hand of him who betrays me is with me on the table.Now the bread you see above becomes the flesh. This is the meat in God's house. Does anyone recall a tithe being given of money? God makes it clear what the tithes were for:
Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me! But you say, 'How have we robbed you?' In tithes and offerings.
Mal 3:9 You are cursed with the curse; for you rob me, even this whole nation.
Mal 3:10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house, and test me now in this,” says Yahweh of Armies, “if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough for.The verses above are often quoted in order for ministers to get their money. However, the tithes are for food in God's House. That food is the same as the food in the Last Supper. Christ is that food – the meat and drink that is put into the Temple of God. Notice in Mal 3:10 that it says that the windows of heaven could pour out a blessing that there would not be room enough to receive it. This happened if you recall with the BREAD (manna) that fell from the sky in the Old Testament when Moses brought the Israelites out of Egypt. Jesus is that Bread as well. Now here we have that Bread in abundance. But notice in what I posted in the section about the Last Supper that eating of the bread and drinking of the blood is to be done in Rememberance. The real eating of the Bread and Drinking of the Blood is done when you read and understand the Word of God. That is the Communication which is consuming what you learn from the Word of God.
Paul
Hi tt,
I think you make some very good points.
“Man cannot live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the moth of God”
“.My flesh is true food. My blood is true drink. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him”
Certainly these apply to the “consumption “of the Word of God.But a tithe is still a tithe-10 percent-so the true meaning of Mal 3 must include this.
Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
The verse above is about that meat which we now have in abudance in Jesus Christ. Also, those called now are to be Kings and Priests and already heirs of that Kingdom. Tithing is no longer required as the tithes were a process leading towards the manifestation of Jesus Christ (the meat for the storehouse). God's temple is not in buildings with walls its within the hearts of those called and chosen believers. The things that were done away with are these:
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Its now unprofitable for Tithing to be performed because we have the meat in abundance in Jesus Christ. Now this doesn't mean we don't give money to others that are in need. We must help those that are in need with no respect to 10 percent not even 20 percent but give as the need requires from what ever abudance we can. That is the commandment to love on another and by giving that which we have if it means to disperse our wealth then it should be done unto those that have need starting first in the Church.
Paul
When Israel wanted a king (like the other nations) here is what God said to them:
1 Samuel 8:10-22
10 Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who were asking him for a king.
11 He said, “This is what the king who will reign over you will do: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots.
12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots.
13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers.
14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants.
15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants.
16 Your menservants and maidservants and the best of your cattle and donkeys he will take for his own use.
17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves.
18 When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, and the LORD will not answer you in that day.”
19 But the people refused to listen to Samuel. “No!” they said. “We want a king over us.
20 Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to lead us and to go out before us and fight our battles.”
21 When Samuel heard all that the people said, he repeated it before the LORD.
22 The LORD answered, “Listen to them and give them a king.”…When christians want or allow a pastor to rule over them like a King, then what is the price? Not only will he take your sons and make them serve him, but he will take a tenth/tithe of your income in order to support his ministry. It has been said that most money that is donated to denominations is used in running the denominations. Not that much is given to the needy as you may think.
True giving is never under compulsion. But let each man decide in his own heart what he will give. We should be generous and help the needy. We should also help ministries that are in service for the King and his Kingdom.
We are free from the law and we are under God's grace. So we should give gracefully and not under compulsion.
2 Corinthians 9:7
Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.I agree with much of what has been said so far but would also like to add that Abel was first noted to present an acceptable offering to GOD out of his blessings and then Abraham on his own volition, somehow was moved to offer a tithe to God via the Priest of Salem, Melchizedek, and this was before the law to tithe.
I believe that Hebrews 7:1f below agrees with much of what has been said. The priesthood is changed! The temple is also no longer in Jerusalem. The levitical priesthood has ceased.
God's people have been wearied left and right by some who seem to preach more on tithing than on the actual kingdom of God. When a person is in debt and owes others, should they not have obligation to first pay their debtors and get that out of the way? Sure while you are in debt, you may chance upon someone who lacks groceries, or appropriate clothing or whatever… help. But should income be diverted for the building fund of a “church?” or whatever else they have going on? Is the “church” financially living within its means? Why is it that many of these “ministries” seem to be always in want just to keep their heads above water? Leaders of some of these ministries have devised the clever way of peddling books, tapes and who knows what else regarding their insights and teachings on the bible. Do you think the apostles Paul, Peter and John were selling their epistles?
I am not against a minister of God being supported by those whom he ministers to, as Jesus allows for it, but such a minister would also have love for the people as to live simply within the means of those who support him.
And what's all this “counseling” business that has filled the churches? Can't we resolve any basic problems in our homes any more or has the word of God become INeffective in our own lives? In fairness to pastors, many are kept incredibly busy by the emotional needs of their congregations and the pastors have become psychiatrists barely having time for their own families! Sure there are times when one needs to obtain wise godly counsel, but what of this long term counseling modes we've moved into, like routinely scheduled visits to the pastors office and the support groups for what-have-yous? Haven't we strayed into the world's way of doing “church”?
Just my thoughts.
Hebrew 7:1f For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,” 3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.
4 Now consider how great this man was, to whom even the patriarch Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils. 5 And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a commandment to receive tithes from the people according to the law, that is, from their brethren, though they have come from the loins of Abraham; 6 but he whose genealogy is not derived from them received tithes from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. 7 Now beyond all contradiction the lesser is blessed by the better. 8 Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives. 9 Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak, 10 for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.
(Ps. 110:4)
11 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. 13 For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar.Quote (Cubes @ July 22 2006,08:44) tithe to God via the Priest of Salem, Melchizedek, and this was before the law to tithe
A friend of mine told me once that this particular tithe was done once and it was war spoils from which he gave a tenth.Is that what that scripture is saying?
If yes, then it is not a very good reason in support of christians tithing as understood in the Law.In the NT we can see that giving is the way to go. If a person decides 10% then that is what he/she decides in their heart and God rewards accordingly. Another may decide 50% or whatever, but as christians should we not be giving 100%.
100% of our time and resources should be in service to the King. Whether that be in our jobs or whatever, we do all in the name of Jesus. A person who serves the Lord with all that he has, cannot tithe, can he?
What are your thoughts?
Mat 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break through and steal:
Mat 6:20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth consume, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:*Mat 6:21 for where thy treasure is, there will thy heart be also.
Mat 6:22 The lamp of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Mat 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is the darkness!
Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.I disagree kenrch.
Just kidding mate.
You know once I was talking to this guy in these forums who was arguing black and blue for the Trinity doctrine. I quoted scripture to him, without the quoted verse and book. He disagreed with me.
When I showed him what I said was word for word scripture he replied even further as to why he disagreed.
It was so funny that another member had to point out how rediculous he was being. I think not too long after that he left, but his entrance into the forums was with all guns blazing.
Anyway thanks for the scriptures. They are appropriate to this tithing discussion.
We serve God not money, and our money is one way we can serve God. But if we serve money itself, it then becomes our god.
Numbers 18:24 (New International Version) 24 Instead, I give to the Levites as their inheritance the tithes that the Israelites present as an offering to the LORD.
Deuteronomy 14 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the LORD your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the LORD your God always. 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice. 27 And do not neglect the Levites living in your towns, for they have no allotment or inheritance of their own.
28 At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year's produce and store it in your towns, 29 so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the aliens, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hands.I've rarely heard tithes taught in this manner. As I read the above, tithes were commanded in the OT as bringing 10% of your gain (from your garden/farm) and basically have a party with the Levites. I've heard pastors say that this 10% of food and drink is the equivilant of our paycheck today. I question why then the Lord told them that if it was too far to exchange it for silver, travel, then use the silver to buy food and drink. I also question how churches lay claim to something clearly spelled out for Levites.
In the NT I think we should support those who minister to us, but most churches consume the money on themselves. I believe our offerings to the Lord are best done by helping meet others needs, going first to those of the household of faith.
Quote (t8 @ July 22 2006,16:39) Quote (Cubes @ July 22 2006,08:44) tithe to God via the Priest of Salem, Melchizedek, and this was before the law to tithe
A friend of mine told me once that this particular tithe was done once and it was war spoils from which he gave a tenth.Is that what that scripture is saying?
If yes, then it is not a very good reason in support of christians tithing as understood in the Law.In the NT we can see that giving is the way to go. If a person decides 10% then that is what he/she decides in their heart and God rewards accordingly. Another may decide 50% or whatever, but as christians should we not be giving 100%.
100% of our time and resources should be in service to the King. Whether that be in our jobs or whatever, we do all in the name of Jesus. A person who serves the Lord with all that he has, cannot tithe, can he?
What are your thoughts?
Makes sense, t8. And I agree with what your friend said.Ah Cubes and T8,
You guys are up on it! Cubes hit the nail on the head by noting that these were Levitical tithes and 10% of produce and livestock brought to the TEMPLE. Well both were abolished after 70 AD. This is simply another way preachers today bilk their members into giving them 10% of their paycheck. If this was done in the first century, why did Paul go to great lengths to say that he and Barnabas WORK to support their ministry? Why is this never mentioned as an option for ministers today?
Look at what is being done. I DONATE my time, gas, expertise and resources to help during church services, organize the church library and assist in their Minister Certification classes. On top of that they want me to give 10% of my income when I don't even GET an income from my ministry?
I'm sure Paul would have something to say if some fellow laborer said that to HIM! Read 1 Corinthians 9:1-23 as it will tell you the rights of the ministry and the selfless example Paul and Barnabas set for not taking full advantage of what he was entitled to.
Here's a little history lesson I prepared for the AOG when they tried to pull that garbage on our child in their Sunday school. She was onto them and told them, “No teacher, that was required under the Old Testament law of Moses!” Should have seen their mouths drop when she said that.
Dear Sunday School Teachers:
With respect to tithing, the New Testament can be divided into two periods, during the ministry of Christ and after it. While Christ was in the process of fulfilling the Old Testament prophecies about himself, he continued to observe the Old Testament ceremonial laws that pointed to his redemptive work, and he urged others to do the same. For example, he was circumcised and dedicated, he attended the three major feasts in Jerusalem, and he even assisted his disciples in paying the half-shekel tax for the temple (while at the same time asserting their freedom from it – Matt 17:24-27). And yes, he instructed his Jewish audience to continue tithing (Matt 23:23; Luke 11:42). On this point, however, it is extremely important to note why the subject of tithing came up: while going to extremes in following the letter of the law on tithing, the Jews had completely forgotten the Gospel motivation for it. The caution and reminder Jesus gave about tithing is needed today more than ever.
After Christ died on the cross for our sins, rose from death on the third day, ascended into heaven to rule all things, and sent his Spirit on all flesh, the situation changed for the New Testament church, because the Old Testament had been fulfilled. The ceremonial laws which pointed to Christ had served their purpose. From Pentecost onward the rite of circumcision, the temple sacrifices, worship on the seventh day, and other observances lost their importance, and along with them, the practice of tithing seems to have fallen by the wayside in the early church. The Jewish historian Josephus states that all three tithes listed above were firmly in place in first century A.D. Judaism, but nevertheless tithing is never mentioned in the New Testament's description of the first century church.
All three tithes became obsolete. The tithe for the Levites became unnecessary when the Levites were replaced by the apostolic ministry. Concerning the material support of ministers of the Gospel, all the New Testament says is that they should eat what is set before them (Matt. 10:10) and that the church should take care of them (Gal 6:6). Secondly, the tithe for the support of the temple services outlived its usefulness: the sacrifices of the temple, soon to be leveled in AD. 70, gave place to the one Sacrifice for all sin. Thirdly, the “social ministry” tithe was no longer needed because Christian brothers and sisters helped one another by way of special collections, as was the case with the famine-stricken Christians in Jerusalem (1 Cor 16). While giving for the Lord's work obviously continued in the church, no amounts or percentages are prescribed in the New Testament. All that is said is that early Christians had everything in common (Acts 2:44 – a “tithe” of 100%!), that they gave sacrificially (2 Cor 8:1-3), and that they gave as God had prospered them (1 Cor 16:2). END
So the guilt trip and legalism of tithing is one way to fill to coffers of the churches. That's fine. I'll be “tithing” to my own ministry from now on!
Excellent posts guys. I can see there are not too many “sheepeople” on this board.
Semmy
Thanks Semmy.
Yes giving under a guilt trip is the same as giving under compulsion.
2 Corinthians 9:7
Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.Semmy do you mind if I copy and paste some of what you have said. I am creating a web page on tithing for the Christian.
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