Thethinker vs. mikeboll64:

[KangarooJack]

Mike,

You say that the word “begotten” in reference to the Son of God means that He “came into being.” But the word “gennao” in Hebrew thought NEVER meant “to come into being.” One who was “begotten” in Hebrew thought pre-existed his being begotten. Look at John 9:2:

1 Now as Jesus passed by, He saw a man who was blind from birth. 2 And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was begotten blind?”

The word “begotten” in this narrative is the Greek “gennao” which is the SAME word used in the statement, “You are my Son, today I have begotten You.”

Two points come from this:

1. The disciples thought that the blind man pre-existed his being begotten. They said, “Who sinned, this man, or his parents, that he was begotten blind?”

2. Jesus did not correct their conception.

We see that in the minds of the disciples the blind man did not come into being when he was begotten. They believed that he pre-existed his being begotten. They thought he may have done something wrong before he was begotten that caused him to be born blind.

Therefore, when the scripture said in reference to the Son, “Today I have begotten You,” they would not have thought that the Son came into being at that point. They would have thought that He pre-existed His coming into being.

I request that you show that the word “gennao” (begotten) meant “to come into being” in the mind of the Hebrew.

TO ALL: Please do not post on this thread unless you are Mikeboll64

thanks,
thethinker

[mikeboll64]

Hi Thinker,

I don't get it. Are you saying the Greeks thought that people existed in some other form before they were born?

peace and love,
mike

[KangarooJack]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 24 2010,14:18)

Hi Thinker, I don't get it.  Are you saying the Greeks thought that people existed in some other form before they were born? peace and love, mike

Mike,
What is the sub-title of this thread? Did I not CLEARLY say that I want you to show me from Hebrew thought that “begotten” means “to come into being?” I expected that you would bring up the Greeks (like they were the only culture who believed in some form of pre-existence). Many Christians deny any pre-existence solely on the grounds that the Greeks believed it. But this is not valid as I am about to show you.

The Hebrews believed that men pre-existed their births (or their being begotten). The disciples believed that the blind man may have sinned BEFORE he was born (or begotten). The apostle to the Hebrews expressly declared that Levi tithed while He was still in the body of Abraham:

One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham, 10because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor. Hebrews 7:9

This is not saying that Levi literally paid tithes while He was in Abraham's body. But it is indeed saying that Levi really existed in Abraham's body in some way. Abraham lived and died long before Levi was “begotten.” Yet Levi pre-existed inside his ancestor Abraham.

So forget the Greeks dude! I am challenging you from the inspired scriptures to show that the word “begotten” in Hebrew thought meant “to come into being.” For Levi had some form of being long before he was “begotten.” And the disciples thought that the blind man may have sinned before he was “begotten” (John 9:2).

If the Hebrew man thought that persons existed in some way BEFORE they were “begotten,” then the statement, “Today I have begotten You” in reference to Jesus is not proof that He “came into being” as you think.

Therefore, the word “begotten” (gennao) would not have meant a simple “coming into being” to the Hebrew. It would have referred rather to a CHANGE in one's MODE of existence.

Please reply!

thinker

[mikeboll64]

Hi Thinker,

This is all new to me and I don't have the strength right now to read up on it.  Let's delay this one for now, please.

I will say though, on the surface it sounds like although they believed in pre-existence, they didn't consider someone begotten until he appeared in the physical world.  In other words, until he was born.  Jesus appeared in the physical world before he ascended.

peace and love,
mike

[KangarooJack]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 25 2010,15:04)

Hi Thinker, This is all new to me and I don't have the strength right now to read up on it.  Let's delay this one for now, please. I will say though, on the surface it sounds like although they believed in pre-existence, they didn't consider someone begotten until he appeared in the physical world.  In other words, until he was born.  Jesus appeared in the physical world before he ascended. peace and love, mike

Thanks Mike. We will put off this one for now and take it up later. I do want to clarify to all though that I do not believe in the pre existence of humans prior to the creation of Adam. I absolutely reject the notion that humans pre existed in heaven (Mormonism) or in any other sphere prior to the creation of the first man and woman.

Mike:

Quote

I will say though, on the surface it sounds like although they believed in pre-existence, they didn't consider someone begotten until he appeared in the physical world.  In other words, until he was born.  Jesus appeared in the physical world before he ascended.

The “begetting” of Jesus according to the flesh (His incarnation) is to be distinguished from His being “begotten” from the dead (His resurrection) and made “Lord”, “Christ”, “High Priest” and “Son” (Ps. 2:7; Acts 13:13; Heb. 1:5-6; 5:5-6).

Yet in both events He was pre existent.

thinker

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