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Berean: Hi Mike
I assume that LU means by “Biological son” what is written in Romans 8 (in capitals)
verse 3: For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending HIS OWN SON in the likeness of sinful flesh…Hi Berean. I appreciate the comment, but that would fit any of God’s sons. Do you know of the singer Marvin Gaye – who was shot to death by his father? Well Marvin’s father had other sons. Yet, someone could easily say, “I can’t believe this man killed HIS OWN SON.” But it’s not like each of his other sons is not also “HIS OWN SON”, right?
Every heavenly son of God is “God’s own son”. After all, who else’s son would they be if not God’s? 😉
Instead of trying to rationalize Kathi’s inappropriate attempt to add things into the scriptures that aren’t there, perhaps you could keep encouraging her to stick to only what IS in the scriptures – as you have been trying to do here for a while. God bless.
LU: Thank you Berean, you understand… He is the only begotten Son of God as Jesus, Himself tells us in John 3:16:
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
The God whom I worship and serve as the Creator of heaven, earth, sea, and everything in them so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, Kathi.
Can you say the same? Because here’s where we are right now…
Mike: But first, one simple question that should lay it all out in the open for all to see…
1. KATHI, WHO EXACTLY IS THE “GOD” THAT YOU WORSHIP AND SERVE AS THE CREATOR OF HEAVEN, EARTH, SEA, AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM?
LU: YAHWEH, THE GOD OF GODS AND THE LORD OF LORDS.
Mike: 2. And is Jesus the Son OF the God that you worship and serve as the Creator of heaven, earth, sea, and all that is in them?
Kathi, what is your direct and honest answer to my second question?
Mike:Every heavenly son of God is “God’s own son”. After all, who else’s son would they be if not God’s?
Me
Yes by creation
But they are not (heavenly sons)of the very substance of God, nor are they the reflection of his glory, and the imprint of his person, they are not GOD IN SUBSTANCE (NATURE, ESSENCE…) AS WAS THE SON OF GOD (IN THE BEGINNING)
THE DIVINITY OF CHRIST IS THE FIRST PRIMORDIAL CONDITION FOR HE TO BECOME “THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD”
THE SECOND CONDITION IS THAT HE PUT ON OUR HUMAN NATURE AND OVERCOME SIN IN THIS HUMAN NATURE.I was just scrolling through my most recent comments and realized that I have made a TERRIBLE blunder in this post…
Kathi’s direct answer (that Jesus’ disciples and all who believe through them WILL become a part of Jesus and God) is most certainly NOT the correct answer! None of us will EVER become a part of Jesus OR a part of his and our God, Yahweh.
I can’t believe I did that. 🤯 You can tell from what I wrote after saying her answer was correct that I DON’T believe that Jesus is a part of Yahweh, or that any of us will ever be a part of Yahweh. Her clear answer of “YES” somehow got twisted in my mind as “NO” – which is why I called it a correct answer.
Mike: Every heavenly son of God is “God’s own son”. After all, who else’s son would they be if not God’s?
Berean: Yes by creation
There are at least four different scriptures that say Jesus was also created, Berean. You don’t LIKE that thought and so try to ignore/twist those scriptures into not saying what they CLEARLY say, but that certainly doesn’t stop them from saying it. Jesus is the first living being that his and our God ever created.
Berean: But they are not (heavenly sons)of the very substance of God…
What scripture says Jesus is “of the very substance of God”?
Berean: …nor are they the reflection of his glory…
Why not? When God said, “Let US create man in OUR image…”, the “us” and “our” referred to God and His heavenly court. All of God’s sons share His image – and even represent His glory…
1 Corinthians 11:7… For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God…
Berean: …and the imprint of his person…
I don’t understand “imprint”, but I’m assuming you mean Jesus is the “spitting image” of the God who created him. Okay… so what? We all know that Jesus is closer to God in many ways than anyone else. But those of us who actually BELIEVE the Bible also know that Jesus is God’s SON – not God Himself or a part of God.
Berean: THE DIVINITY OF CHRIST IS THE FIRST PRIMORDIAL CONDITION FOR HE TO BECOME “THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD”
I don’t deny that Jesus is divine. So are God’s other spirit sons. But what scripture tells us that his divinity was a “primordial condition” for Jesus to be sent by his and our God to be one of God’s many saviors?
Berean, you have made claims that I don’t think are taught in scripture. I have challenged those claims. Please correct me by using the very scriptures that DO (clearly and unequivocally) say the things you’ve claimed. Thanks.
Also, please tell me who exactly YOU worship and serve as your God who created heaven, earth, sea, and everything in them – including you? Thanks.
Mike,
You said:
Every heavenly son of God is “God’s own son”.
Please provide scriptures that call any son an only begotten Son of God.
You said:
None of us will EVER become a part of Jesus OR a part of his and our God, Yahweh.
Wrong!
1 Cor 12 27Now you are Christ’s body, and individually parts of it.
Also, there is no scripture that clearly claims that Jesus was created without other meanings that don’t mean created.
And while your searching…please show me any scripture that directly calls satan “god.”
Mike,
You regarding this:
Mike: But first, one simple question that should lay it all out in the open for all to see…
1. KATHI, WHO EXACTLY IS THE “GOD” THAT YOU WORSHIP AND SERVE AS THE CREATOR OF HEAVEN, EARTH, SEA, AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM?
LU: YAHWEH, THE GOD OF GODS AND THE LORD OF LORDS.
Mike: 2. And is Jesus the Son OF the God that you worship and serve as the Creator of heaven, earth, sea, and all that is in them?
Jesus is the Lord of lords who with the God of gods, created the heaven, earth, sea, and all that is in them. Jesus is God’s only begotten son. Together they are YHVH! I worship them as our YHVH creator.
Mike: Every heavenly son of God is “God’s own son”.
LU: Please provide scriptures that call any son an only begotten Son of God.
Why are you conflating “God’s own son” with “only begotten son”? Consider the example of Isaac, Abraham’s “only begotten son”. Does that mean that Ismael was somehow NOT “Abraham’s own son”? Are not ALL of your children “your own children”?
Please either acknowledge or scripturally refute my claim that every heavenly son of God is “God’s own son”.
Besides, you’ve convinced me that Jesus BECAME God’s “only begotten son” for a while when he was raised from the dead. I say “for a while” because I believe there have been disciples of Jesus since then who are now dwelling in heaven (souls under the altar in Rev 6:9) as brothers of Jesus and begotten sons of God (John 1:13, 1 Pet 1:3, etc). If not, there soon will be MANY of them. So even if Jesus is still currently God’s “only” begotten son, he will not be for long.
And since Jesus’s title “only begotten son of God” had nothing to do with him being brought into existence before the world began, there is nothing in the entirety of scripture to suggest that the manner in which Jesus was brought into existence is any different than the way God’s other heavenly sons were brought into existence. The only difference is that Jesus was the first.
Mike: None of us will EVER become a part of Jesus OR a part of his and our God, Yahweh.
LU: Wrong!
1 Cor 12 27Now you are Christ’s body, and individually parts of it.
You’re kidding, right? Surely you can’t seriously think that Paul’s lesson on how all body parts (members of the Church of Christ) are important and need to work together for the common good equates to Paul teaching that we are LITERALLY members of “The Yahweh Unity”, ie: individual members of some “Almighty Godhead”… can you?
No Kathi, I’m not wrong. None of us will ever be a literal part of Jesus (individual persons in a “Jesus Head”), or a literal part of Jesus’ God (individual persons in a Yahweh head).
LU: Also, there is no scripture that clearly claims that Jesus was created without other meanings that don’t mean created.
Proverbs 8:22-25… Yahweh created me as the first of his works, before his deeds of old; I was formed long ages ago, at the very beginning, when the world came to be. When there were no watery depths, I was given birth, when there were no springs overflowing with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth…
Look at all the bolded words, Kathi. It’s clear that Wisdom (ie: Jesus) is talking about when he was brought forth into existence. And he specifically uses the word CREATED to start it off… just like he himself says he is the beginning of the CREATION by God. And Paul calls him the firstborn of every CREATURE.
If it was a matter of just that ONE “possessed/created” word, you might have a valid argument. But that word is immediately followed up by three other words from Jesus himself that DEMAND a meaning of “created” for the first word. And then that statement by Jesus is followed up by other scriptures in other books of the Bible that teach the same dang thing.
LU: And while your searching…please show me any scripture that directly calls satan “god.”
2 Kings 1:16… This is what Yahweh says: Is it because there is no God in Israel for you to consult that you have sent messengers to consult Baal-Zebub, the god of Ekron?
That was Yahweh calling Baal-Zebub “god” – even using a plural form of el. And here is Jesus referring to the same god as Satan…
Luke 11:18-19… If Satan is divided against himself, how can his kingdom stand? After all, you say that I drive out demons by Beelzebul.
Of course we could also use Psalm 82, as it’s a no-brainer that Satan is most definitely one of the gods that Yahweh passed judgment upon.
Mike,
You said:
On the other hand, we know for a fact that God has given authority over all the kingdoms of the world to Satan. (Luke 4:6)
That was satan’s claim, he was lying.
Ellicott’s Commentary for English Readers:
The notion that any such delegated sovereignty had been assigned to the Tempter, either before or after his fall from his first estate, has, it need hardly be said, no foundation in Scripture. It asserts that “the earth is the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof” (Psalm 24:1); and the claim of the Tempter was a lying boast, resting only on the permitted activity and temporary predominance of evil in the actual course of the world’s history.
You have no scripture that calls satan the “god of this age” and satan is not in the context of where that phrase is found.
LU: Together they are YHVH! I worship them as our YHVH creator.
Yes… so you’ve said repeatedly. I’m asking you if the God that YOU worship and serve as the Creator of heaven, earth, sea, and everything in them has a son and servant named Jesus.
Kathi, does your God and Creator have a son named Jesus or not?
(Off to bed for me. I’ll address your “Satan was lying” post as soon as I get a chance.)
Mike,
You said:
And since Jesus’s title “only begotten son of God” had nothing to do with him being brought into existence before the world began, there is nothing in the entirety of scripture to suggest that the manner in which Jesus was brought into existence is any different than the way God’s other heavenly sons were brought into existence.
Jesus is the only begotten son, begotten before the ages, before the first works of old,i.e. before creation. In another sense, Jesus is the first of many begotten from the dead. Jesus was not God’s only begotten son from the dead. God said “today I have begotten you” in Heb 1. That refers to the begetting from the dead. There is nothing about being “only begotten” there.
You haven’t shown me anyone that is said to be God’s only begotten son aside from Jesus.
Mike,
You have asked this multiple times:
KATHI, DOES YOUR GOD AND CREATOR HAVE A SON NAMED JESUS OR NOT?
The Father and the Son are the creator. The Father has a son named Jesus. The Father together with His Son are the creator. They are my God.
Mike,
You said:
If it was a matter of just that ONE “possessed/created” word, you might have a valid argument. But that word is immediately followed up by three other words from Jesus himself that DEMAND a meaning of “created” for the first word.
Really??? I was given birth, when there were no springs overflowing with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth…
Being born doesn’t mean “began to exist.” Created things were at one point, non-existent. Every use of the word “born” was applied to someone/something that existed in some manner beforehand for a period of time. Your son existed long before he was born, for instance. The phrase “I was given birth” gives support to the eternal existence doctrine. One has to exist for a period of time before they can be born, Mike. The eternal life of the Son was with the Father from the beginning in some yet-to-be born manner and then became born as a result of some type of an asexual reproductive process, as I understand it.
Even when Jesus was begotten from the grave, being the firstBORN from the dead, no one would say that on that day of the resurrection, that he was created on that day. In fact he had to have existed beforehand alive, in order to die. The term “gave birth to” does not necessarily mean that which was born didn’t always exist.
You said:
just like he himself says he is the beginning of the CREATION by God. And Paul calls him the firstborn of every CREATURE.
You misunderstand those two scriptures. Jesus is the firstborn of God and thus the firstborn OVER all creation.
He is the beginning/origin of the creation of God, not by God. Creation’s origin came through the Son, not as the Son.
So, no, you have nothing that says Jesus was created.
Hi Kathi. You must have overlooked this one from a few days ago. I’d really like an answer to the question at the bottom. Thanks.
LU: That was satan’s claim, he was lying.
And Jesus – who openly called Satan the prince of this world – was unaware that Satan was lying? Because his response to Satan certainly wasn’t, “What are you talking about? You don’t have authority or possession of any of these kingdoms.”
Revelation 12:12… Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.
What is the meaning of the above, Kathi? Why “woe the the earth”? What could Satan possibly do to an earth that is owned and operated by Satan’s own God, Yahweh?
Deuteronomy 32:8-9… When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when He divided the sons of man, He set the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. But the LORD’s portion is His people, Jacob His allotted inheritance…
That is the story of the Bible, Kathi. God gave man dominion over the animals. But God also gave His spirit sons dominion over the nations and affairs of man. These gods were supposed to teach man to follow God and be righteous. Some of them rebelled against God and taught man evil things. You can read all about it in Enoch, and in Psalm 82.
Satan is the leader of these other gods who rebelled against the Most High God…
Revelation 12:7-9… Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
Satan AND the gods who followed him in his rebellion against the Creator were hurled down to earth. Satan is their leader, Kathi. Jesus calls him the prince of this world for a reason, Kathi.
Now… let’s look at it from another perspective…
2 Corinthians 4:4… The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
Do you think that Jesus – who just spent years on earth teaching people about God and the gospel of the imminent kingdom of God, and who commissioned his followers to go throughout the world teaching others the same – would then purposely blind the minds of people so that they are unable to comprehend the very gospel that he came down make known to them?
Christ himself blinds their minds so they can’t see the light that displays his own glory? Does that really make any sense to you?
Mike: KATHI, DOES YOUR GOD AND CREATOR HAVE A SON NAMED JESUS OR NOT?
LU: The Father and the Son are the creator. The Father has a son named Jesus. The Father together with His Son are the creator. They are my God.
So then your DIRECT answer is “NO”. Is that correct? Now consider that the two most well-known verses in the Bible are Gen 1:1 and John 3:16. Virtually everyone on earth knows what these two verses say.
And the two of them together sum up the scriptures…
1. God created heaven, earth, sea, and everything in them.
2. God so loved the world He created that He gave His only begotten Son.
The story of the Bible is that the God who created all things has a son named Jesus, whom He gave on behalf of the world.
Your God has no son named Jesus whom He gave on behalf of the world that He loved so much.
Think about that.
LU: Jesus is the only begotten son, begotten before the ages, before the first works of old, i.e. before creation.
How do you know that? You’re the one that told me “begotten” referred to Jesus being begotten from the dead.
LU: God said “today I have begotten you” in Heb 1. That refers to the begetting from the dead.
See? Which scriptural instance of the word “begotten” refers to a literal begetting “before the ages”? And how do you know?
LU: You haven’t shown me anyone that is said to be God’s only begotten son aside from Jesus.
That’s likely because I’ve never tried to do that – nor would I have any reason to do that. If Jesus is ONE begotten son of God (perhaps still the ONLY begotten, perhaps not), then anyone begotten by God besides Jesus could never be another ONLY begotten – since Jesus is still around being a DIFFERENT begotten.
Understand? If the Apostle John was raised from the dead today and became a “son born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but begotten of God” (John 1:13), then he could be the SECOND begotten of God. But he could never be another ONLY begotten of God, since Jesus still exists as a begotten of God.
So I agree that Jesus will forever remain the ONLY person who has ever been the ONLY begotten son of God.
But Kathi, remember that Jesus is/was the only begotten Son of God. Your God could not possibly have Jesus as His only begotten Son, because your God is not the God of the Bible.
Let that really sink in.
Mike: If it was a matter of just that ONE “possessed/created” word, you might have a valid argument. But that word is immediately followed up by three other words from Jesus himself that DEMAND a meaning of “created” for the first word.
LU: Really??? I was given birth, when there were no springs overflowing with water; before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth…
Being born doesn’t mean “began to exist.”
You missed the point. The Hebrew word qānâ has only two meanings. One is to acquire (usually through purchase), and the other is to create. “Possess” is listed as a meaning, but only based on the KJV’s authority and use of that in a few verses, such as…
Gen 14:19… Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth.
But the KJV scholars didn’t know of the other meaning of “create” back then. From NETNotes…
The earlier English versions did not know of the second root, but suspected in certain places that a meaning like that [create] was necessary (e.g., Gen 4:1; 14:19; Deut 32:6). Ugaritic confirmed that it was indeed another root. The older versions have the translation “possess” because otherwise it sounds like God lacked wisdom and therefore created it at the beginning.
So even if you wanted to exclude “created” in Prov 8:22 for personal reasons, your only other option would be “acquired”, because “possess” doesn’t fit any of the word’s Biblical usages. (I went through ALL of the KJV’s “possess” translations in the whole Bible, and crosschecked them against the NIV. The NIV does NOT use “possess” in any of the places the KJV does.) And as you can tell from the KJV’s use of “possess” in the Gen 14:19, they clearly dropped the ball. The obvious meaning is “Creator of heaven and earth” – not “possessor of heaven and earth”.
It is the same in Prov 8:22, Kathi. The KJV uses their FAULTY “possessed” because they did not know of the other root. And concordances still include “possess” as one of the “Biblical Usages” based solely on the fact that the KJV messed up and used it in places like Gen 14:19. But “possess” is not an option.
That leaves you with Jesus either saying he was CREATED as the first of God’s works… or that he was ACQUIRED/PURCHASED as the first of God’s works.
That being said, my point from above was that the OTHER terminologies Jesus uses immediately after his first statement (“I was given birth”, “I was born”) make it clear that CREATED is the intended meaning of his first statement. Again, from the 25 Trinitarian NETNotes scholars…
…the parallel ideas in these verses (“appointed,” “given birth”) argue for the translation of “create”…
Can you understand that logic, Kathi? My point was that “created” goes much better WITH “given birth” and “born” as a general overall theme than “acquired” does. Plus, what would it even mean that Yahweh “acquired/purchased” (or even “possessed” for that matter) Jesus as the first of His works?
The meaning of Prov 8:22 is that Yahweh CREATED Jesus as the first of His works… which would have no choice but to make Jesus the BEGINNING of the creation by God, and the FIRSTBORN of every CREATURE. Interesting how they all work together to teach the same thing, huh?
LU: Every use of the word “born” was applied to someone/something that existed in some manner beforehand for a period of time. Your son existed long before he was born, for instance.
Okay, I’ll concede for argument’s sake that living things “exist” before they are passed through the birth canal or whatever. But you’ll have to concede that every single one of those things that “existed” before they passed through the birth canal DIDN’T exist before their pre-birth “existence”.
And if you plan to make your usual “exception for Jesus” argument, please give clear scriptural examples that Jesus truly is an exception to the rule. Because I can quote Micah 5:2 that says Jesus’ ORIGINS were from days of old, ancient times.
Mike: …he himself says he is the beginning of the CREATION by God. And Paul calls him the firstborn of every CREATURE.
LU: You misunderstand those two scriptures. Jesus is the firstborn of God and thus the firstborn OVER all creation.
He is the beginning/origin of the creation of God, not by God. Creation’s origin came through the Son, not as the Son.
So, no, you have nothing that says Jesus was created.
Kathi…
1. Is it even REMOTELY POSSIBLE that Proverbs 8:22 teaches us that Yahweh created Jesus as the first of His works? Yes or No?
2. Is it even REMOTELY POSSIBLE that Col 1:15 teaches us that Jesus was the first creature to ever exist? Yes or No?
3. Is it even REMOTELY POSSIBLE that Rev 3:14 teaches us that Jesus was the first thing ever created? Yes or No?
I have already showed you that IF Jesus was created as the first of Yahweh’s works, then he’d have no choice but to be “the firstborn of all creation” and “the beginning of the creation of God” – because they ALL teach the same exact thing.
Now if we add in Micah 5:2, which clearly teaches that Jesus was ORIGINATED a long time ago – and every verse that says Jesus is the SON of God (every son in history didn’t exist until he was brought into existence) – which is more likely…
1. I’m misunderstanding ALL of these verses that gel perfectly with each other?
2. You are purposely rejecting the most clear and obvious meaning of ALL of these verses in an effort to achieve your own personal desired outcome – which concludes with you worshiping a sonless Creator God that is foreign to the Bible?
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