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This thread is to flesh out and scrutinize Lightenup’s teaching that the Most High God is a “Yahweh Unity” comprised of Yahweh the Father (God of gods) and Yahweh the Son (Lord of lords). I will begin the thread with a discussion I and LU were having in another thread.
Mike: Genesis 1:26… Then God said, “Let US make man in OUR image…
Who is the “US” and the “OUR” in the above verse?
LU: Gen 1:26
Then the Father (the God no one has seen of John 1:18) said to the Son (the only begotten God of John 1:18), “Let Us make man in Our image (the only begotten God who is the image of the God no one has seen, Col 1:15), according to Our likeness…
Mike: How do you know? Why couldn’t it have been the Son saying, “Let us make man in our image”?
And which one of them was the “HE” who made man? (Please include how you know.)
LU: I believe that the Father gives the vision and the Son does what He has seen in the vision. The Son formed man. All things are made by the only begotten God, apart from the only begotten God, nothing has been made that has been made. John 1:3, even the heavens and the earth 😉
Personally, as “The Word of God”, I thought you’d say Jesus did the speaking. But the bottom line is that you don’t know, right? And is this the way throughout the entire Bible, Kathi? Every time “Yahweh” or “God” is mentioned, you have to choose for yourself which of them said this, and which of them did that? Of course it would have to be, right?
For example, you “believe” that the Father did the speaking and the Son created man. But how does that align with these words from Jesus himself…
Matthew 19:4… Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female…
Could Jesus have been coyly talking about himself? And here…
Mark 10:6… But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
Was Jesus mystically speaking of himself again? And what do you do with this one…
Deuteronomy 32:6… Is this the way you repay Yahweh, you foolish and unwise people? Is he not your Father, your Creator, who made you and formed you?
Here we have Yahweh being a “he”, and their “Father”, and their “Creator” – the one who “made them”. How does this align with your doctrine?
Malachi 2:10… Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us?
It sure seems to me that the writers of scripture consider the Father alone to be – not only their God – but also their Creator…
Isaiah 64:8… Yet you, Yahweh, are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hands.
Not a single mention of “Yahweh the Son”, who actually created them according to you. Kathi, why do you suppose the God-inspired writers of scripture didn’t know about the “Yahweh Unity” that you preach? Why do these people all assume that Yahweh is only the Father, and that He (not they) created them?
LU’s Response…
Hi Mike,
When I read the name Yahweh, I understand it as the God of gods and the Lord of lords to help see the unity of the Father and the Son who act as one. Since I believe that the Father accomplishes his vision through the Son, then they are both involved in the act albeit in different ways, and rightfully both be credited for the act like creation, making man, protecting Israel, leading the Israelites, giving life, etc.
When Jesus spoke about God, I think it is likely that Jesus entered this world as a baby, knowing nothing of his past and knowing only what normal healthy baby’s know. I think it is entirely possible that Jesus willingly emptied himself of his memories as if he willingly took on a strong case of amnesia and then over time, the Father slowly revealed who he was and what he did. It’s a theory but it makes sense to me. I don’t believe Jesus was an actor playing the role of a man but actually came into this world knowing as much as any other baby. The Bible says that Jesus grew in wisdom, stature and in favor with God and man. Little by little he came to know who he was as the only begotten Son of God, i.e. the only begotten God, and the promised Messiah. In other words, no I don’t think Jesus spoke coyly.
You wrote many verses, this one for example:
Isaiah 64:8… Yet you, Yahweh (God of gods and Lord of lords), are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hands (the Son is the arm of the LORD, i.e His hands in this verse).
The “arm of the LORD” is the Son. This was not always known…it was something revealed. So, before it was revealed, it was not spoken of as known. The name YHVH includes not only the God of gods but also the Lord of lords, so when anyone speaks of YHVH as God, both persons are being addressed without people realizing it. We know in part and we speak in part, someday we will know more fully. Until we know more fully what is what, we can only speak in part. The Bible is full of the stories of people growing in wisdom and knowing only in part. You can’t read the stories of what people thought and assume that they knew in fullness when they only knew in part.
Since I believe the Bible teaches us that the Father and the Son acted together in creation, then, we came from them both, and they together are our “Father,” in a sense, our potter.
One provides the clay and the other forms the clay and tada, man is made and both the God of gods and the Lord of lords took part in that.
You asked:
Not a single mention of “Yahweh the Son”, who actually created them according to you. Kathi, why do you suppose the God-inspired writers of scripture didn’t know about the “Yahweh Unity” that you preach? Why do these people all assume that Yahweh is only the Father, and that He (not they) created them?
Yahweh the Son is mentioned as the Word of the LORD and the Arm of the LORD, for example, many time in the OT. The writers knew in part and spoke accordingly. Now that the Bible is complete, we know more fully but depend on the Holy Spirit to enlighten us as we read.
As Adam admits, I teach in agreement wiht what the NT teaches. He said this:
But the problem is that she takes the other references from the NT which support Jesus’ involvement in creation process along with God.
In other words, he is implying that you do not teach what the NT teaches about Jesus’ involvement in the creation process along with God the Father.
You said:
Personally, as “The Word of God”, I thought you’d say Jesus did the speaking.
The “Let Us make man in our image” seems to me to be the Father talking to the Son. The Son is the one who seems to speak for them, as the spokesman for the Unity to man. YHVH is seen and heard through the Son. No man has seen the Father. The words “Let Us make man in our image” was obviously not spoken to man since man was not made. Jesus is the “Word of the LORD” when the LORD speaks to man.
From Lightenup…
Hi Adam,
Regarding the Targums, do you realize that the Memra of God is the way the Aramaic say “Word of God”?
This is what I meant to type to Adam:
Regarding the Targums, do you realize that the Memra of God is the way the Aramaic say “Word of God”?
Sorry, I should have proofread it before I posted it.
LU
Mike,
I’m not sure that I will be able to keep everyone’s comments straight on this setup. I prefer the one on one discussion. I would have rather that you waited for my permission to start this topic. Therefore, I want to discuss your questions for me as part of a one on one discussion. Start that and put this one on hold or better yet, ask Proclaimer to delete this topic. Thanks, I hope you understand. That goes for anyone here, if anyone wants to discuss what I believe in a focused way, start a one on one discussion with me, I would be happy to take part as I feel led.
Blessings, LU
Kathi, there are less than 10 people active on this entire site right now – and only five or six of us participate in these kinds of discussions. You have been touting (and changing/altering/tweaking) this doctrine – to these very people and many others – for a decade on HN. You have been posting various snippets here and there in every thread imaginable – only to disappear for a while when pressed for answers about certain aspects of the doctrine. And then you come back weeks, months, or years later, preaching the same stuff in snippets.
This thread is your chance to take a bold stance, clearly and proudly laying out and defending your doctrine in the face of scriptures and scrutiny from others. I believe I could do a one-on-one with you and easily destroy your doctrine using scriptures and logic – but then both of us would lose out on the benefit of other people’s knowledge – because they will find scriptures and other things that we never thought of. Some of them might even find some obscure scriptures that support your doctrine and help you out. Iron sharpens iron, right?
At any rate, this is the thread where I will address your “Yahweh Unity” claims – wherever you choose to make them. That way they are all in one place where you can be held accountable (instead of searching through the 50 other threads you’ve already taught your doctrine on).
I intend to do a similar thread for Gene on the subject of preexistence – because he has been doing the same “sucker-punch then run away” thing for a decade here too.
Don’t you think it’s fair that people open themselves and their beliefs up to scrutiny from everyone? I’ve been touting the many gods of the Bible here for a decade – but nobody is able to stand and defend themselves against me. That’s why I started a dedicated thread. I’ve also been touting the Biblical earth and how it completely contradicts the earth that Scientism has imagined – but nobody is able to stand and defend themselves against me. And that’s why I started the Bible vs Scientism thread.
So here I am, pulling teeth to get people to even participate in a discussion about these important subjects, and here you are, being given the perfect opportunity to stand and defend your doctrine and prove to us all that it is the Biblical truth of the matter – and you want OUT? Are you maybe a little afraid that you won’t be able to defend your doctrine under scrutiny?
LU: Hi Mike,
When I read the name Yahweh, I understand it as the God of gods and the Lord of lords to help see the unity of the Father and the Son who act as one. Since I believe that the Father accomplishes his vision through the Son, then they are both involved in the act albeit in different ways, and rightfully both be credited for the act like creation, making man, protecting Israel, leading the Israelites, giving life, etc.
Hi Kathi,
Your entire post involves your beliefs and how you personally imagine things to be. And your doctrine allows any particular member of your religion the choice to decide for themselves which person is speaking or acting each and every time a scripture says that “God did this” or “Yahweh said that”. What if I join your religion and disagree with you? For example, you say the Father said, “Let us make man…” What if I decide for myself that it was “Yahweh the Son” who spoke those words? Who is right? How do we tell?
And we have to do that EACH and EVERY time Yahweh speaks or acts in the entire Bible. This is mass confusion, Kathi.
As for the “God of gods and Lord of lords” aspect of your doctrine… we both know that more than one person can be a King of other kings, right? And it certainly doesn’t mean that all of these Kings of other kings are combined in a “King Unity”, right?
It is the same with “Lord of lords”. We know that Jesus is called a Lord of other lords in Revelation – and we know that Yahweh is called a Lord of other lords in Deuteronomy. Is it possible that the Lord of lords mentioned in Deut is the Father – and that Jesus is simply a different Lord over other lords?
In other words, is there ANY scriptural teaching that INSISTS that the Lord of lords mentioned in Deut is Jesus as opposed to the Father?
Because I think there is at least one important scriptural teaching that makes clear the Lord of lords in Deut is the Father.
You go first.
Mike,
You twisted my words. I didn’t say that I want to get out of defending my beliefs, I just want to have a more focused discussion with you, the only person here that seems to want to get to the bottom of what I believe. If you think you can easily destroy my ‘doctrine’ then it would be more obvious where people can actually follow the discussion that we have. I will be happy to discuss this with you further on a one on one discussion. I will do that, not this. Btw, you also have come and gone from here for years and months at a time so let’s not pretend that others have done something that you haven’t and let’s not assume that people have done that because they don’t want to address the comments.
I will not be participating in this thread because it is easier for me to follow and address your claims on a one on one discussion, not because I want ‘out’ as you say. I am offering you an opportunity to attempt to get to the bottom of ‘it.’ Take it or leave it.
LU: When Jesus spoke about God, I think it is likely that Jesus entered this world as a baby, knowing nothing of his past and knowing only what normal healthy baby’s know. I think it is entirely possible that Jesus willingly emptied himself of his memories as if he willingly took on a strong case of amnesia and then over time, the Father slowly revealed who he was and what he did. It’s a theory but it makes sense to me.
This is exactly how I see it too – and the way it has to be considering scriptures like Luke 2:52 – to which you alluded. I believe that Jesus was like any other prophet of God, being led and driven to behave a certain way and do certain things – up unto the point that he was led by an urgent drive to be baptized by John. I believe that the moment he was baptized, the memories of his past were given back to him and he knew exactly who he was and why he was currently on earth as a man.
Here you go Mike, go to this new thread if you want to discuss this topic with me:
LU/Mikeboll64 regarding The Yahweh Unity Doctrine
LU: I will not be participating in this thread because it is easier for me to follow and address your claims on a one on one discussion, not because I want ‘out’ as you say. I am offering you an opportunity to attempt to get to the bottom of ‘it.’ Take it or leave it.
Kathi, you and everyone else has the perfect opportunity to “set me straight” on the many gods of the Bible right now. You and everyone else has the perfect opportunity to “set me straight” on the dire contradictions between the Biblical world in which we actually live, and the Scientism world that is a fantasy concocted by godless men who openly confess that a God is unnecessary for the creation and existence of our world.
Why are you afraid of giving me and everyone else the same opportunity to “set you straight” on your “Yahweh Unity”? Why should you exclude Proclaimer – who has refuted your doctrine for years? Or Gene, who has also refuted your doctrine?
Why are you afraid to defend your own beloved doctrine against 4 or 5 people, Kathi? I’ll defend mine against a thousand… if only I could find any takers.
You do what you want. A thread like this is great opportunity for a person whose doctrine is scriptural, and therefore very easy to defend. Are you such a person?
(Btw, I suggested two different times in two different threads last week that we should set up a thread that focuses solely on your “Yahweh Unity” doctrine. You never responded. So don’t talk to me now about getting your permission. I don’t need your permission to expose your doctrine.)
LU: Here you go Mike, go to this new thread if you want to discuss this topic with me:
LU/Mikeboll64 regarding The Yahweh Unity Doctrine
And where do you expect to discuss the Targum with Adam? Will you just rudely keep spamming my “gods” thread and other threads with your doctrine? Where will Proclaimer offer his two cents on your doctrine? Or Gene? Will those comments be forced into my “gods” thread too?
This is unfair to everyone, Kathi. I consider it to be a cowardly move on your part. Shame on you.
Kathi believes that any time “Yahweh” says or does something in the scripture, we must pick and choose which one of the two Yahwehs are saying or doing that thing. She says that this is common throughout the Bible, and we always have to use discernment and ask for guidance from the Holy Spirit to know who is speaking or acting.
I call BS on that stuff, and I have asked her for another scriptural example (other than Yahweh) where some named person is quoted as saying something, or has an action attributed to him, and we have pick and choose who did the speaking or performed the action.
So far, nothing.
Kathi says the “us” in Genesis 1:26 is Yahweh talking to Yahweh. I pressed her for which one of the two Yahwehs were doing the speaking, and how she knew.
She says she “believes” that the speaker is the Father, and that “Yahweh the Son” is the one who did the actual creation of mankind.
So I showed her this verse (among others)…
Deuteronomy 32:6… Is this the way you repay Yahweh, you foolish and unwise people? Is he not your Father, your Creator, who made you and formed you?
In one single verse, we learn that Yahweh is the Father, our Creator who made us, and that he is a HE (as opposed to a “they”).
Kathi thinks the writer of the verse is not fully aware of “Yahweh the Son” like she is, and that the Son is still our creator – regardless of that scripture. As for Yahweh being called a “he”, she points out that sometimes in scripture, groups are addressed with the singular masculine Hebrew form of “you”.
I have asked for other scriptures where a group of two or more persons are addressed with the singular masculine pronoun “he” – as Yahweh the Father is addressed in the above verse.
So far, nothing.
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