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Hi JOdi,
Men are not said to exist in the mind of God.
The word was with God.Jesus was given the Living Spirit of God and thus death could not hold him when he died because of that faithful indwelling Spirit of eternal life.
He was perfected by suffering but he also had glory with God before he came and hoped to attain it again.
Nick………..You could Not be more wrong brother. Jesus did not attain (Again) He attained what God planned for him before he ever came into existence.
peace and love…………………………..gene
Are you saying that God does not have the power to see into the future? Are you saying Nick that God does not have control over the world? Are you saying that God works without a plan? Are you saying that God is incapable of planning ahead of time the use of men to fulfill His Will?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2009,14:50) Hi Jodi,
Was this word that was in God's mind with God?
Titus 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, 3 but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior;The answer is IMO obviously YES. The word that was with God in the beginning we see from Titus, was the promise of eternal life. That word was with God then and it is with Him today, for it assists Him in all His decisions and actions.
Words represent us, and they MOST CERTAINLY are with us affecting our attitudes and decisions.
Seriously Nick, think about these things.
If I tell a lie, I have to carry that lie WITH me and maybe the consequences of that lie for the rest of my life.
I love my husband and those words represent me and how I feel, and those words ARE WITH ME affecting how I behave and the decisions I make, even in by subconscious when I am sleeping and dreaming those words are with me.
I am sorry that you do not understand the power of words, what are they to you, just ink on paper?
The gospel is a message of truth, words of truth. Are those words not WITH you Nick, affecting your heart and mind?
A thought: Lazarus was resurrected before Jesus by Jesus. Jesus brought back to life the young man in the coffin for his mother.There were others that came back to life or left life without dying. I think we must see/understand spiritually. The resurrection through Jesus is rising from death to life in the mind. Mankind already fell from life to death with Adam. Adam didn't die as soon as he made the choice to believe in evil, but death began because man began to think incorrectly. Adam began to believe he had separated himself from God. Adam began to believe that God was upset with him. Adam began to think and believe himself away from God. That is the original fall of man from God. God didn't go anywhere. God is everywhere. One that is born again sees through understanding and hears through understanding. Jesus said, he who has ears to hear let him hear. He meant, those who have the mental ability to understand spiritual application, let him hear.That which is natural is natural. That which is spiritual is spiritual.The flesh and the spirit is reffering natural and spiritual understanding. A natural man can only read the letters of documentation he is unable to discern with understanding the picture being painted in the mind/heart. Jesus spoke all Truth in parables that, natural seeing will not understand, yet a new creation man with spiritual perception will understand. There was in the beginning, the Spirit of God. No boundaries, no limitations, all existant, all that is. The body of a physical being was created and the Spirit of life was breathed in it to annimate and quicken it to life. Mankind always had the Spirit of God within and without.We are inside God. He is within and without. The only going or comming in Spirit is in the mind. If you think you are separated from God through sin, then you have separated youself. God made the earth and gave it to man. Man was in control and is still in control of the earth. Man was given all creative power in the physical world. One God,One spirit, many aspects as man procreated physically and breathed the breath of Spirit/Life. Man cannot be separted from God in Truth. Man can only believe incorrectly that something has caused a separation, yet in Truth we have always been ONE. Take God/Spirit away from man and he dies. We believe ourselves to death. Jesus came to give us the Truth that the ruling power of God (the Kingdom) is within. It always was but you must clear your mind of lies and untruth to opperate in the Truth. When we see/understand Jesus, we will be like him for as he is, so are we, in this world. A spiritual resurrection will avoid physical death! Had Jesus not laid down his life do you think he would have died? Peace and love to all, TK
Nick……………Jesus said the (Words) He Spoke to us (ARE) SPIRIT AND LIFE. Your word are who and what your (ARE). Jodi has correctly stated it. So a man thinketh So He (IS)> . Words are expressions of our Spirits (intellects) and they represent our lives, for our words proceed out from our hearts as Jesus correctly said, they identify who and what we are. GOD'S words were in the beginning they were with and are GOD, they are and expression of who and what GOD IS. .IMO
peace and love……………………..gene
So that Word of God then became flesh in verse 14? Not so. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. verse 3 He made all and whatever was made, was made by Him. That all goes with Col. 1:15-17 and Rev. 3:14 He did not always existed. He was the firstborn of all creation, Col. 1:15 and Rev. 3:14. In John 17:5 Jesus said:” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the glory I had with You before the World was.” I also like Proverbs
Pro 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Pro 8:24 When [there were] no depths, I was brought forth; when [there were] no fountains abounding with water.
Pro 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I was brought forth:
Pro 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
Pro 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I [was] there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Pro 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
Pro 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, [as] one brought up [with him]: and I was daily [his] delight, rejoicing always before him;
Peace and Love Irene
Irene…………your forcing the text to make it say what you want it to, we are told no where the Jesus preexisted His berth, Peter said it right “He was (FOREORDAINED) but was (MANIFESTED )IN OUR TIME. NO Preexistence here only in the foreordained plan of GOD. He was the firstborn of all creation into eternal life. IMO
peace and love…………………….gene
He was the firstborn of all creation into eternal life. IMO
peace and love…………………….gene
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Gene All I do is give you Scriptures. No forcing the text at all.
Jesus was the firstborn of all creation, Rev. 3:14 and Co. 1:15-17
And Jesus was firstborn of the death. Were do I force the text? Not so.
He was first in all, so that in all He had preeminence. Meaning first in all. Col. 1:18 only Scripture here too.What I find it so ironic, no matter what Scripture and prove I give you, you have made up your mind whatever you want to believe, not I.
But we are going of the subject.
John 1:1-2 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
verse 2 He was in the beginning with God.These verses go along with Co.1:15-17 and Rev. 3:14
verse 3 ” All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
What most don't understand that God is a tittle. The Almighty God has a name and so does the Word. We do know that that Word became flesh and dwelled among us.
John 1:14 Here we see that it is the Word that became Jesus. Also you can't say it is in the mind of God. He made all. By the power of the Father.Peace and Love Irene
Irene…….. Firstborn, does not mean first (created). Jesus was firstborn Human being to recieve eternal life, and as a result he holds the firstborn status of all of man kind. Why do you choose to not believe scriptures that clearly say the LORD GOD Created everything (ALONE) and BY HIMSELF> SO even through you don't believe Jesus is GOD, you do give him the status of the creator of everything even through the LORD GOD said He by himself did IT. Interesting . Irene we are told to come out of these false teachings of the Apostate Churches. Here are just a few we should come out of IMO .
the doctrine of the Trinity
the doctrine of preexistence of Jesus
the doctrines of devil and demons
the doctrines of Easter
the doctrine of Christmas
the teaching of sunday as the day of worship
the teaching of tithing as a requirement of the Church
there are many more that we should come out of in order to clear our minds and see correctly. IMO
peace and love to you and Georg………………………………gene
Quote (Cindy @ June 26 2009,04:01) Gene All I do is give you Scriptures. No forcing the text at all.
Irene you certainly force the text. Perfect example is when you say that the spirit of wisdom in Proverbs 8 represents a pre-existent spirit son. Nowhere does it say such. When you have an idea you should test it with other scriptures.Look here at these scripture,
Ex 28:3 So you shall speak to all who are gifted artisans, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom, that they may make Aaron's garments, to consecrate him, that he may minister to Me as priest.
Ex 31:3 And I have filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
God is the spirit of wisdom, and he can fill humans with that spirit.
Ex 31:6 And I, indeed I, have appointed with him Aholiab the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan; and I have put wisdom in the hearts of all who are gifted artisans, that they may make all that I have commanded you:
Ex 35:31 and He has filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom and understanding, in knowledge and all manner of workmanship,
Ex 36:2 Then Moses called Bezalel and Aholiab, and every gifted artisan in whose heart the Lord had put wisdom, everyone whose heart was stirred, to come and do the work.
De 34:9 Now Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom, for Moses had laid his hands on him; so the children of Israel heeded him, and did as the Lord had commanded Moses.1Ki 4:29 And God gave Solomon wisdom and exceedingly great understanding, and largeness of heart like the sand on the seashore.
1Ch 22:12 Only may the Lord give you wisdom and understanding, and give you charge concerning Israel, that you may keep the law of the Lord your God.
2Ch 9:23 And all the kings of the earth sought the presence of Solomon to hear his wisdom, which God had put in his hear
Psalms 136:1 Oh, give thanks to the Lord, for He is good! For His mercy endures forever. 2 Oh, give thanks to the God of gods! For His mercy endures forever. 3 Oh, give thanks to the Lord of lords! For His mercy endures forever: 4 To Him who alone does great wonders, For His mercy endures forever; 5 To Him who by wisdom made the heavens, For His mercy endures forever; 6 To Him who laid out the earth above the waters, For His mercy endures forever; 7 To Him who made great lights, For His mercy endures forever– 8 The sun to rule by day, For His mercy endures forever; 9 The moon and stars to rule by night, For His mercy endures forever.
Is this scripture telling us that God made a spirit son and made him the spirit of wisdom and then had that spirit son of wisdom make the earth? NO, NO, NO. If a pre- Jesus was the spirit of wisdom then what happened to wisdom when Jesus came to earth as an infant anyway?
YHWH is the Almighty God, He Himself is Wisdom, Truth and Life. By YHWH’s wisdom did He make the heavens and the earth, with His Hands.
Irene time and time again you prove to me to be irresponsible with scripture. Test all things prove all things. Forcing proverbs 8 to fit your doctrine is like I said IMO completely irresponsible, for it makes no sense given many other scriptures.
Pr 2:6 For the Lord gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding;
Proverbs 3:13 Happy is the man who finds wisdom, And the man who gains understanding; 14 For her proceeds are better than the profits of silver, And her gain than fine gold. 15 She is more precious than rubies, And all the things you may desire cannot compare with her. 16 Length of days is in her right hand, In her left hand riches and honor. 17 Her ways are ways of pleasantness, And all her paths are peace. 18 She is a tree of life to those who take hold of her, And happy are all who retain her. 19 The Lord by wisdom founded the earth; By understanding He established the heavens; 20 By His knowledge the depths were broken up, And clouds drop down the dew.
Irene can you set aside your doctrine for just a few seconds and read a scripture for what it says, not adding your own preconceived ideas?
Proverbs 3 shows us directly that the wisdom was His not a creature He turned into wisdom. The earth was created by YHWH our Almighty Father, by His knowledge and His understanding.
Isa 11:2 The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord.
The Spirit of wisdom is the Spirit of God, not a pre-existent Jesus.Da 1:17 As for these four young men, God gave them knowledge and skill in all literature and wisdom; and Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams.
Da 2:21 And He changes the times and the seasons; He removes kings and raises up kings; He gives wisdom to the wise And knowledge to those who have understanding.
1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,
Just like in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God, so it can be said of wisdom.
In the beginning was wisdom and the wisdom was with God and the wisdom was God. God is wisdom He is the source of all truth and light. That wisdom is with God in that it guides Him in all His decisions and work.
Irene, given all these scriptures, are you still going to assert that Proverbs 8 is talking about Jesus?
Sorry if I've missed your explanation before, but how is it exactly that you believe the word in John 1:1 represents Jesus but that Jesus is not God? It says the word was God and you say that the word was Jesus, therefore wouldn't you have to believe then that Jesus was God? Please give me your explanation of this again. Thanks.
Peace to you and Georg, Jodi
ok im goin all the way back to the original question… John 1:1-4 In the begining was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. By Him all things were made, without Him nothing was made that has been made. In Him was light and that ligh was the light of men..
The word is Jesus… to whom was God speaking when he said, Let US make man in our own image. Jesus. Jesus has always been. He is God and God's son, and helped God make the earth with the holy spirit who is also mentioned in genesis.
homesick You do not believe in a preexisting of Jesus? He was the firstborn of all creation. Col. 1:15-17 and Rev. 3:14
IremeHi Irene
Which version of the bible ore you reading? I’d like to read the verses you are referring to and I’ll understand your point better if you let me know.Quote (homesick @ June 29 2009,10:05) ok im goin all the way back to the original question… John 1:1-4 In the begining was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. By Him all things were made, without Him nothing was made that has been made. In Him was light and that ligh was the light of men.. The word is Jesus… to whom was God speaking when he said, Let US make man in our own image. Jesus. Jesus has always been. He is God and God's son, and helped God make the earth with the holy spirit who is also mentioned in genesis.
Hi Homesick,
Welcome. I just want to ask you one thing; if Jesus was the word that was with God and being God how many Gods you make in the beginning?Don't you think Jewish Monotheism is against that?
Sounds like Christ pre-exsisted. Otherwise how could Jesus make this claim? “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.” John 6:46 How could Jesus have seen the Father without pre-existing?
Quote (gollamudi @ June 29 2009,18:41) Quote (homesick @ June 29 2009,10:05) ok im goin all the way back to the original question… John 1:1-4 In the begining was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. By Him all things were made, without Him nothing was made that has been made. In Him was light and that ligh was the light of men.. The word is Jesus… to whom was God speaking when he said, Let US make man in our own image. Jesus. Jesus has always been. He is God and God's son, and helped God make the earth with the holy spirit who is also mentioned in genesis.
Hi Homesick,
Welcome. I just want to ask you one thing; if Jesus was the word that was with God and being God how many Gods you make in the beginning?Don't you think Jewish Monotheism is against that?
The Father spoke to the Son saying,Quote You Lord in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of your hands (Hberews 1:8-10) The Father Himself said that the Son was in the beginning and that He created all things. Anti-trinitarians claim that the Father is their God but they contradict everything He says about His Son.
thinker
thinker……….What do you do with Isa 44:8…> Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not (I) told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witness. Is there a GOD beside ME? Yea there is (NO) GOD I KNOW NOT (ONE)> So how do you deluded TRINITARIANS get (THREE), When GOD HIMSELF SAYS there IS (NO) other GOD.
Isa 44:24….> Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, (I) am the LORD that (MAKES (ALL) THINGS; that stretches forth the heavens (ALONE); that spread abroad the earth by (MYSELF)>
Isa 45:5 …..(I) and the LORD, and there is (NONE ELSE), there is (NO) GOD Beside (ME): (I) girded thee, though thou hast not Known me; 6…> That they may Know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is (NONE) beside (ME), (I) am the LORD, and there is (NONE) else.
How much does it take before Idolaters start getting the picture. THERE IS (ONLY ONE TRUE GOD)> JESUS SAID, what part of that you people don't understand. “HEAR O ISREAL THE LORD OUR GOD IS (ONE) LORD”, not two or three anythings.
peace and love……………….gene
Quote (Gene @ Aug. 11 2009,03:05) thinker……….What do you do with Isa 44:8…> Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not (I) told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witness. Is there a GOD beside ME? Yea there is (NO) GOD I KNOW NOT (ONE)> So how do you deluded TRINITARIANS get (THREE), When GOD HIMSELF SAYS there IS (NO) other GOD. Isa 44:24….> Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, (I) am the LORD that (MAKES (ALL) THINGS; that stretches forth the heavens (ALONE); that spread abroad the earth by (MYSELF)>
Isa 45:5 …..(I) and the LORD, and there is (NONE ELSE), there is (NO) GOD Beside (ME): (I) girded thee, though thou hast not Known me; 6…> That they may Know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is (NONE) beside (ME), (I) am the LORD, and there is (NONE) else.
How much does it take before Idolaters start getting the picture. THERE IS (ONLY ONE TRUE GOD)> JESUS SAID, what part of that you people don't understand. “HEAR O ISREAL THE LORD OUR GOD IS (ONE) LORD”, not two or three anythings.
peace and love……………….gene
Gene,
You skipped over Isaiah 44:6. It says that YHWH is Israel's “goel” which means “blood relative redeemer.” It says also that YHWH is the King of Israel. Who was the only blood relative (goel) of Israel? Answer: Jesus. Who rode into Jerusalem as Israel's King? Answer: Jesus. Why do you skip over verse 6?You don't need a degree in rocket science friend.
thinker
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