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Hi Jodi, also the scripture you quoted in Hebrews 1:10,11. And You Lord in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the Heavens are the works of thy hands. They will perish but you will remain.
I believe that this scripture is God speaking to Christ saying ” And you lord in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth.”
Am I right or did I miss the point? Please reply!
datguy………..Quote (datguy @ June 21 2009,15:20) Hi Jodi, thanks for the information. According to Philipians 2:, Christ was in the form of God, and did not consider it robbery to be equal to God, yet made of himself no reputation taking the image of man………. This scripture suggest that he was in the form of God. Could you please then say when was it so. Please explain to me I really want to know.
Hi datguy,Thanks for bringing up an important scripture. Now is the time for understanding.
Philippians 2:5 For, let this mind be in you that is also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God, 7 but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made, 8 and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death — death even of a cross, 9 wherefore, also, God did highly exalt him, and gave to him a name that [is] above every name, 10 that in the name of Jesus every knee may bow — of heavenlies, and earthlies, and what are under the earth — 11 and every tongue may confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 So that, my beloved, as ye always obey, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, with fear and trembling your own salvation work out, 13 for God it is who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
I think first of all it is a good idea to keep these scriptures in mind when looking to understand the above scriptures in Philippians-
Hebrews 2:14 In as much then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
How should we read this? WHO had to be made like His brethren, WHO had to partake in flesh and blood? Are these scripture a new revelation about Jesus pre-existing? What scriptural foundation do we have to build such an idea on? The context of the scripture is referring to WHO our Savior had to be, it is not referring to a pre-existent son changing form in order to be our savior. God saw fit that in all things the savior had to be made like us. Romans explains this as well,
Romans 5:6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned– 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Joh 7:42Hasnot the Scripture said that the Christ comes from the seed of David and from the town of Bethlehem, where David was?”
Ro 1:3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,
2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel,
Christ does not come from a pre-existing spirit, he came from the promise of God, which was that our savior would come from the seed of David.
As Romans shows us God saw fit for His plan that as one man would bring us into sin and death, another one man would bring us into righteousness and life. In all things God saw that our savior needed to be flesh, He did not see that our savior needed to be a pre-existent spirit who would come in the flesh. Our Messiah comes from the seed of David PERIOD!! Jesus Christ was of the seed of David, he was not of a pre-existent spirit.
So back to
Philippians 2:5 For, let this mind be in you that is also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God, 7 but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made, 8 and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death — death even of a cross, 9 wherefore, also, God did highly exalt him, and gave to him a name that [is] above every name, 10 that in the name of Jesus every knee may bow — of heavenlies, and earthlies, and what are under the earth — 11 and every tongue may confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 So that, my beloved, as ye always obey, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, with fear and trembling your own salvation work out, 13 for God it is who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure.Lu 2:40 And the Child grew and became strong in spirit, filled with wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him.
Lu 4:1 Then Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into* the wilderness,
Joh 5:19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
Whatever wisdom or power Jesus had he had it because it was given to him by God. Jesus was equal to God because God gave to him HIS powers and wisdom. What is so awesome about Philippians is that when read under the correct light it really exposes God’s GREAT work in man. It exposes how awesome Jesus was and how unlike other men he was, not
serving himself through God’s gifts, but serving God and all people.Daniel 2:20 Daniel answered and said: “Blessed be the name of God forever and ever, For wisdom and might are His. 21 And He changes the times and the seasons; He removes kings and raises up kings; He gives wisdom to the wise And knowledge to those who have understanding. 22 He reveals deep and secret things; He knows what is in the darkness, And light dwells with Him…………………..
36 “This is the dream. Now we will tell the interpretation of it before the king. 37 You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory; 38 and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all–you are this head of gold. 39 But after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours; then another, a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. 40 And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others. 41 Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile. 43 As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay. 44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever
Isaiah 14:13 For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.'
Here we see an example of a king having power and glory and taking that power and glory and saying that he will exalt his throne above the stars of God. We see him grow in vanity and use the power and wisdom God has gifted him and use it for his own gain, often causing great atrocities with it. This is a pattern we have seen occur in kings long before and long after Jesus, and they by no means were handed the gifts of God that Jesus was given.
Though Jesus found himself equal with God, having all the powers God had, he did not grow in vanity, in the wilderness he did not turn and seek his own will and use God’s power’s for his own gain. Instead he emptied himself of that prestige and found himself as a servant to God, using God’s powers that were granted to him, for God’s Will only. Christ, with all the gifts God gave him, all the powers and wisdom, he turned and humbled himself and was obedient to death. Through this action Jesus became worthy of being the ONLY HUMAN KING fit for the ruler-ship of God’s kingdom on earth.
Oh man, datguy! This understanding moves me deeply. The pre-existing outlook just wrecks it.
Jodi………….You post does stir the Spirit. You have rightly said it. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
Hi Jodi, I understand clearly your explanation of Philipians Chapter 2. What I don't understand however is your use of Christ coming from the seed of David. Is it that you believe Joseph to be his biological father or did I miss your point?
Could you also give your view on Hebrews 1:10,11 as I asked in my previous post, thanks.
Peace be unto you from God the father and our Lord Jesus Christ
Hi Jodi,
FORM OF GOD does not seem to relate to given abilities but to form.
Can you show how any of the prophets also graced in this way were said to be in the form of God?Nick: Jesus called us brothers and sons not servants, a servant does not know what his master doeth. TK
Quote (datguy @ June 22 2009,09:18) Hi Jodi, I understand clearly your explanation of Philipians Chapter 2. What I don't understand however is your use of Christ coming from the seed of David. Is it that you believe Joseph to be his biological father or did I miss your point? Could you also give your view on Hebrews 1:10,11 as I asked in my previous post, thanks.
Peace be unto you from God the father and our Lord Jesus Christ
Yo datguy,The scriptures make it a point to tell us that Jesus our Messiah came from the seed of David. We are told before Jesus was born and after Jesus was born, that Jesus came from the seed of David. What we are never told however, is that Jesus came from being a different creature that existed before his birth. The glory as I explained in the pre-existent thread, that Jesus had before the world was, was the promise of eternal life. Jesus did not see corruption but was raised from the dead and received the change of having a human decaying body able to die, to one that is immortal. The glory that Jesus was going to be given in John 17, was eternal life IN a human being.
The scriptures want us to know that Jesus was a plan of God's, that God knew ahead of time Jesus would be our savior and that he would come from the seed of David, because that is what God promised David. Titus tells us that the hope of immortality was in the beginning with God, Jesus fulfilled that hope. So putting two and two together I believe it is scripturally sound to say that Jesus existed in the mind and plan of God long before Jesus was ever born, making him not literally pre-exist, but exist in God's mind. Eternal life was a promise God had in the beginning and that promise would be filled through a human Jesus Christ, NOT some sort of spirit son we know nothing about. We are told that YHWH made the heavens and the earth, He did it with His hands, and He did FOR Jesus, for the changed man of eternal life.
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
We need to stay with in context, and ask ourselves WHICH Son is being spoken of in Hebrews, a HUMAN or a Spirit Son?
3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Every word in Hebrews, actually in all of scripture is speaking and referring to the human Jesus. We must apply that FACT to scripture to form our understanding. God made the world knowing that He would bring man into righteousness and eternal life through a man, as Romans 5 specifically tells us. God made the world through the foreknowledge of Jesus. Jesus is specifically referred to as the firstborn of the resurrection, he is the firstborn of THAT BEGINNING. God laid the foundations of the world in the beginning because of the future work of the righteous man, not for the work of sin.
When I first joined this forum I started a thread about Hebrews 1, because I believed that the messengers being referred to in Hebrews were human messengers and not angels. I think the scriptures make a lot more sense when we view them in that light. This is my understanding of Hebrews 1,
In the beginning we have a distinction being made of Jesus and the prophets, all who were messengers of God. Jesus out of all the messengers was the only one who was said that God made the ages through. Jesus was the only messenger that was of the impress of God’s subsistence. Through cleansing our sins he became much better than the messengers before him and he received a more excellent name then they. When God brings the firstborn into the world, when we know that is also the time when the prophets are resurrected, God says that all messengers will bow to Jesus. Those who are resurrected at Christ’s return are being resurrected in to the Spirit of eternal life and becoming ministering spirits to aid Jesus in judging the world and establishing God’s kingdom. Jesus unlike all messengers before him fully loved righteousness and hated lawlessness, therefore above all partners, or other messengers, he was the one anointed with the oil of gladness. The earth, rather if scripture is talking about the beginning where God saw the foreknowledge of Jesus, or it is referring to the beginning of when Jesus was anointed, none of the less, the earth did find that the work of Jesus was that of the heavens, meaning it was of God. This work, which was of a man being given by God all His powers and authority, was a work kept fully under God’s will, which gave Jesus the right to not see corruption but be raised from the dead, whereas all other messengers before him did indeed perish. Because of Jesus however they shall all be joined together and resurrected and be changed into immortality. None of the previous messengers were told that they would sit at God’s right hand till the enemies become a footstool, however upon the resurrection these messengers will all be spirits of service being sent forth to aid Jesus in crushing the enemy and bringing forth salvation.
Yound Literals Translation
Hebrews 1:1 In many parts, and many ways, God of old having spoken to the fathers in the prophets, 2 in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages; 3 who being the brightness of the glory, and the impress of His subsistence, bearing up also the all things by the saying of his might — through himself having made a cleansing of our sins, sat down at the right hand of the greatness in the highest, 4 having become so much better than the messengers, as he did inherit a more excellent name than they. 5 For to which of the messengers said He ever, `My Son thou art — I to-day have begotten thee?' and again, `I will be to him for a father, and he shall be to Me for a son?' 6 and when again He may bring in the first-born to the world, He saith, `And let them bow before him — all messengers of God;' 7 and unto the messengers, indeed, He saith, `Who is making His messengers spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire;' 8 and unto the Son: `Thy throne, O God, [is] to the age of the age; a scepter of righteousness [is] the scepter of thy reign; 9 thou didst love righteousness, and didst hate lawlessness; because of this did He anoint thee — God, thy God — with oil of gladness above thy partners;' 10 and, `Thou, at the beginning, Lord, the earth didst found, and a work of thy hands are the heavens; 11 these shall perish, and Thou dost remain, and all, as a garment, shall become old, 12 and as a mantle Thou shall roll them together, and they shall be changed, and Thou art the same, and Thy years shall not fail.' 13 And unto which of the messengers said He ever, `Sit at My right hand, till I may make thine enemies thy footstool?' 14 are they not all spirits of service — for ministration being sent forth because of those about to inherit salvation?So let me just emphasize datguy how I see verses 10-11. At the beginning before God made the heavens and the earth He knew that a man would be found on earth to do a work of the hands of heaven, meaning a man on earth would do God’s work. As well, at the beginning of Christ’s anointing he was found on earth to be doing with his hands the work of heaven, the work of God. Unlike any messenger before him or after, such as Paul, the flesh of Jesus would not see
corruption, it would be resurrected.Peace to you as well, from YHWH our Father and Yeshua our Brother, Jodi
Quote (Tim Kraft @ June 22 2009,22:03) Nick: Jesus called us brothers and sons not servants, a servant does not know what his master doeth. TK
Tim,Indeed!
Moses was a servant over God's house….but Jesus is a son.
Jodi, I understand the point you are making and the angle at which you put this mystery into perspective. However, in John chapter 17 Christ is praying to God and says some very important things. In verse 4 and 5 he says (4) I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. (5) And now , O Father, Glorify me with thine own self with the glory I had with thee befor the World was…. Now I can easily says that this scripture goes against what you are saying because he asked God to give him the glory which he had before the world was. This shows some form of existence before the worl was. I'm not saying he always existed but he was before the world was.
I looked at your explanation for the seed of David I'm not sure you understand the point you were making. I'll stsate what I believe and you can comment on it. Scriptures clearly state that christ did come from the seed of David. The argument has been made that Joseph was actually his father based on the origin of the word which was used to describe Mary . Some say that it did not mean she was a virgin but that it just means she was a young woman. I have not done any research myself to say if that's what the word meant so I can't comment that way. What I can say however is that in Matt 1:18 says that Mary was with child of the Holy Ghost before she was espoused with Joseph. Matt 1:25 Joseph knew her not.
Also in Matt 1:16, the previous scriptures show the lineage of Christ traced through David right back to Abraham. It's states who is the father of whom but when it reaches to Christ ist says And Jacob begat Josephthe Husband of Mary, of whom Christ was born. This scripture is totally different to all others mentioning the wife as whom the child was born. Even this scripture is not conclusive so lets look at another which shows clearly that although he came from the lineage Jacob was not his biological father.
Matt 22:41-46 Christ asked the scribes what think ye of Christ who's son is he. They replied by saying he is the son of David. He then asked if he is the son of David how then in the Spirit David said the Lord said unto my Lord sit thou at my right hand. He then said if David called him Lord how be it that he is his son?
If Mary was a Virgn or not based on the word translated I do not Know but what's clear is that his birth was a special one, for he was of the lineage of David yet he wasn't.( Biologically)datguy You are right that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation.
Col. 1:15 ” He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in Heaven and that are on earth……..
verse 17 And He is the head of the Church, who is the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have preeminence. Meaning first in all.
Rev. 3:14…… ” These says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God.
And then we have the Word in John 1:1 it says ” All things were made yhtough Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
Ihn 17:5 is one of my favorite Scripture to prove that Christ was with God before the World was.Keep up the good work and prove all things.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Cindy @ June 24 2009,12:35) datguy You are right that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation.
Col. 1:15 ” He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in Heaven and that are on earth……..
verse 17 And He is the head of the Church, who is the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have preeminence. Meaning first in all.
Rev. 3:14…… ” These says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God.
And then we have the Word in John 1:1 it says ” All things were made yhtough Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
Ihn 17:5 is one of my favorite Scripture to prove that Christ was with God before the World was.Keep up the good work and prove all things.
Peace and Love Irene
Jesus was a human being born from Mary, and the scripture declares he was firstborn of the resurrection. It does not say that he was the first person God created. Adam was the first man.1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
Jesus was a man, a human being. The scriptures say that it was JESUS who was the firstborn over all creation. The scriptures DO NOT say that some spirit son was the firstborn over all creation, and then that spirit son became a human.
Colossians 1:12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Jesus is the BEGINNING of the firstborn from the dead. He was the second Adam who became a life giving spirit. Jesus was perfected by the things he suffered, it is that Jesus who is firstborn over all creation….of the dead. For WHO were all things created? All things were created for the man Jesus who was born of Mary and died for our sins. Who is the image of the invisible God? Jesus the man.
There is nothing in the above scripture that is telling us that Jesus pre-existed.
Amen Jodi, no pre-existence. Jesus is the firstborn over all of creation in his position as head of the church. In this position, he has also been given the authority to judge the living and the dead.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (datguy @ June 24 2009,08:14) Jodi, I understand the point you are making and the angle at which you put this mystery into perspective. However, in John chapter 17 Christ is praying to God and says some very important things. In verse 4 and 5 he says (4) I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. (5) And now , O Father, Glorify me with thine own self with the glory I had with thee befor the World was…. Now I can easily says that this scripture goes against what you are saying because he asked God to give him the glory which he had before the world was. This shows some form of existence before the worl was. I'm not saying he always existed but he was before the world was. I looked at your explanation for the seed of David I'm not sure you understand the point you were making. I'll stsate what I believe and you can comment on it. Scriptures clearly state that christ did come from the seed of David. The argument has been made that Joseph was actually his father based on the origin of the word which was used to describe Mary . Some say that it did not mean she was a virgin but that it just means she was a young woman. I have not done any research myself to say if that's what the word meant so I can't comment that way. What I can say however is that in Matt 1:18 says that Mary was with child of the Holy Ghost before she was espoused with Joseph. Matt 1:25 Joseph knew her not.
Also in Matt 1:16, the previous scriptures show the lineage of Christ traced through David right back to Abraham. It's states who is the father of whom but when it reaches to Christ ist says And Jacob begat Josephthe Husband of Mary, of whom Christ was born. This scripture is totally different to all others mentioning the wife as whom the child was born. Even this scripture is not conclusive so lets look at another which shows clearly that although he came from the lineage Jacob was not his biological father.
Matt 22:41-46 Christ asked the scribes what think ye of Christ who's son is he. They replied by saying he is the son of David. He then asked if he is the son of David how then in the Spirit David said the Lord said unto my Lord sit thou at my right hand. He then said if David called him Lord how be it that he is his son?
If Mary was a Virgn or not based on the word translated I do not Know but what's clear is that his birth was a special one, for he was of the lineage of David yet he wasn't.( Biologically)
Yo datguy,Joh 7:42 Has not the Scripture said that the Christ comes from the seed of David and from the town of Bethlehem, where David was?”
Ro 1:3concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,
2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel,
Re 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
Lu 1:32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.
2 Samuel 7:2 “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son.
Lu 1:32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.
Many people believe that Luke 3 is speaking of the genealogy of Mary, it was customary I have read to list the wife's husband's name in place of hers within her genealogy. This makes sense since this genealogy is different from Matthew. Heli was Joseph's father in law.
Luke 3:23 Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Janna, the son of Joseph, 25 the son of Mattathiah, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, 26 the son of Maath, the son of Mattathiah, the son of Semei, the son of Joseph, the son of Judah, 27 the son of Joannas, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri, 28 the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmodam, the son of Er, 29 the son of Jose, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, 30 the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonan, the son of Eliakim, 31 the son of Melea, the son of Menan, the son of Mattathah, the son of Nathan, the son of David, 32 the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Salmon, the son of Nahshon, 33 the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, 34 the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, 35 the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, 36 the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, 37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel, the son of Cainan, 38 the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
Ro 1:3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,
Concerning God's Son who was born of the seed of David, according to the flesh.
Let's stick with the facts, the Son of God was born according to the flesh from the seed of David. THIS Son of God is called the firstborn over all creation, the beginning of the new earth to be, under the resurrection of the dead. He was NEVER said to be born the first person of our creation as a spirit being.
Adam is called the first man and he is shown in Luke 3 to be the first son of God. When Adam sinned he lost his firstborn rights and inheritance. Of course God knew all that ahead of time, and we know according to scripture that God also knew ahead of time that He would have a Son according to the flesh by the seed of David.
Notice 2 Sam 7:14, “I will be his Father, and he shall be My son.”
God is not promising David that He is going to send His Spirit Son, and have that Son become David's seed. Notice the Son was not yet a Son, but was going to be a Son. Here we have proof that the Son of God existed ONLY in God's mind, and was yet to be.
942767 So when Col. says that He was the firstborn of all creation, that is false? And whatever was created was through Christ is false? When it says i John 17:5 That Jesus asked His Father to give Him back the glory, which He had with Him before the world was, is false? When it says that He had preeminence in all, is false? When it says that He made all and without Him nothing that was made without Him, is false?
Col. 15-18
Rev, 3:14
John 1:1&3
John 17:5
These are all the Scriptures that you say are false.
And it says that God send His Son into the World, from where did He send Him from?
And who is the us and our in Genesis?
To sat that the Word in John 1:1 is only in God's mind, is far fetched. And that mind of God became flesh in verse 14?
I don not believe that the Father ever walked this earth.
Also in Proverbs 8:22-30 is a wonderful example of what the Son was doing. It talks about wisdom, but I cannot see Wisdom being the Fathers delight daily.
You should know these verses so I am not going to write all down.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Nick Hassan @ June 24 2009,14:50) Hi Jodi,
Was this word that was in God's mind with God?
Yes Nick and it became flesh!!!!!!
hMMMMMMM
IreneQuote (Cindy @ June 24 2009,15:01) 942767 So when Col. says that He was the firstborn of all creation, that is false? And whatever was created was through Christ is false? When it says i John 17:5 That Jesus asked His Father to give Him back the glory, which He had with Him before the world was, is false? When it says that He had preeminence in all, is false? When it says that He made all and without Him nothing that was made without Him, is false?
Col. 15-18
Rev, 3:14
John 1:1&3
John 17:5
These are all the Scriptures that you say are false.
And it says that God send His Son into the World, from where did He send Him from?
And who is the us and our in Genesis?
To sat that the Word in John 1:1 is only in God's mind, is far fetched. And that mind of God became flesh in verse 14?
I don not believe that the Father ever walked this earth.
Also in Proverbs 8:22-30 is a wonderful example of what the Son was doing. It talks about wisdom, but I cannot see Wisdom being the Fathers delight daily.
You should know these verses so I am not going to write all down.
Peace and Love Irene
Hi Mrs:No, the scriptures are not false, but either you or I are misunderstanding the scriptures.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Cindy @ June 24 2009,12:35) datguy You are right that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation.
Col. 1:15 ” He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
verse 16 For by Him all things were created that are in Heaven and that are on earth……..
verse 17 And He is the head of the Church, who is the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have preeminence. Meaning first in all.
Rev. 3:14…… ” These says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God.
And then we have the Word in John 1:1 it says ” All things were made yhtough Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
Ihn 17:5 is one of my favorite Scripture to prove that Christ was with God before the World was.Keep up the good work and prove all things.
Peace and Love Irene
Irene the person who was the image of the invisible God was the guy that died on the cross, the guy that was perfected through suffering.Hebrews 5:8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, 3 but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior;
Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know– 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.
O.k, can we think about this for a minute Irene, and put two and two together?
First of all in Acts 2 we see that the him who was delivered was not a pre-existing Spirit, but was the man who performed miracles, wonders and signs through God's powers. The him that was delivered was a man that existed in the mind of God before hand. According to scripture it was not a spirit son who was known before hand to become a human being.
Second, Jesus became our savior being perfected through suffering and dying on the cross. Because of THAT perfection Jesus could not be held to the penalty of death, he had to be resurrected. Was not the glory of Jesus, the fact that he was a man who remained sinless and earned immortality not only for himself but for all of mankind? We know that this glory was in the plan of God in the beginning. What the scriptures don't attest to however was that it was God's plan to send a spirit son to be a human to obtain that glory.
It seems apparent to me that those who follow a pre-existent doctrine, do so through asserting their own ideas to a handful of scriptures, all the while disregarding key scriptures that give proper understanding.
Jodi………..Amen to that, preexistences disregard many scriptures the Show Jesus did not preexist his berth. He was a born and perfected Human being , the first to be resurrected of man kind as you clearly brought out. Continue to us your GOD given talents sis, it encourages us all.
Peace and love to you and yours Jodi…………………………….gene
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