The word was god… john 1:1, what does this mean

[datguy]

John 1:1, In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

This part that states that the Word was God what does this mean?

[Lightenup]

Hi datguy,
Welcome to Heaven Net!

I have a theory about John 1:1, you can read it and see what you think:

In the beginning was the word……..the first recorded word of GOD is “Let there be Light” (Jesus is the Light of the world, the True Light)
and the word was with GOD………..the “Light” was with GOD (the Son is also the firstborn of all creation)
and the word was GOD………………and the Light was God, the only begotten Son…GOD beget God

The Son of GOD was begotten of the Most High GOD before anything came into being in heaven or on earth. Just as our nature is passed on to those we have begotten, so it was for the Son of GOD. Man begets man, GOD begets God. Since the Son is FROM someone, that rules Him out as being the Most High GOD but He is the Most High Son of GOD and the only begotten Son of GOD. The Most High GOD is the head of the Son and the Son is the Head of the church. If we remain in the Son then we are safe in our Father GOD as well because the Son remains in Him.

So, that's my theory. I hope that was clear. There are a few threads on this message board regarding this topic without a general consensus unfortunately. So, I don't know that we can help you arrive at anything but a theory. It is interesting pondering the different views though.

God bless and enjoy!
Kathi/Lightenup/LU

[Cindy]

datguy Welcome to Heaven Net. John 1:1 is very hard to understand. The Word and God had other names. Jehovah God and Yahshua, who later became Jesus. When the Bible was translated they had such Aw of Jehovah, that they were afraid that they might misspell their names, so they used God in stet. God is a tittle. At that time there were many God's. Even Satan is called the God of this earth. Kathi also has a good point. I hope it helps.
Peace and Love Irene

[KangarooJack]

Lightenup said to datguy:

Quote

The Son of GOD was begotten of the Most High GOD before anything came into being in heaven or on earth.

dg,
Don't you believe it! The Scriptures no where say that Christ was begotten “before anything came into being.” We are told THREE times in the new testament that the Son was begotten at His exaltation. There is absolutely no Scripture that puts the begetting of the Son before the exaltation. LU speaks on her own authority.  

Lighetenup said:

Quote

Just as our nature is passed on to those we have begotten, so it was for the Son of GOD.  Man begets man, GOD begets God.

dg,
God cannot reproduce. Jesus was the Son by decree and not by God's reproducing Himself.  

Lightenup said:

Quote

Since the Son is FROM someone, that rules Him out as being the Most High GOD but He is the Most High Son of GOD and the only begotten Son of GOD.

dg,
LU believes in two “gods” one being the Most High and the Son which is a lesser god. This is polytheism. Trinitarianism on the other hand confesses one true Elohim (plural) of three persons all co-equal in power and glory.

Lightenup said:

Quote

So, that's my theory.

dg,
This is the only accurate statement LU has made.

thinker

[Cindy]

datguy…..     thinker I have to stand up for what is right, that was not nice at all to say that to datguy.  I happen to agree with Her, that Jesus preexisted His birth on the earth. We have Scriptures that state it.
Col. 1:15 states ” He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Rev. 3:14 says this …. ” These things says the Amen, the Faithful and the True Witness the Beginning of the creation of God.
John 17:5 says ” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the Glory Which I had with You before the world was.
In John 1:1 He is the Word, who was with God. And became a man. Through Him all was made……

All these Scriptures tell us that He was before all.
Col. 1:18 says …..so that He will have Preeminence in all.  Meaning He was first to be born and first to be resurrected.
Irene

[Cindy]

You know what thinker  You should really study this a little more, and not jump to conclusion.  I know how hard it is to change ones view, but look at these Scriptures I gave. I had to on this and other subjects.  I called the guy that first told us about it, crazy.  But God did not leave me in that unbelief, and I thank Him for it.  It has nothing to do with the trinity, like some think.  I do not believe in a trinity either.
Peace and Love Irene

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Cindy @ June 19 2009,01:06)

datguy…..     thinker I have to stand up for what is right, that was not nice at all to say that to datguy.  I happen to agree with Her, that Jesus preexisted His birth on the earth. We have Scriptures that state it. Col. 1:15 states ” He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Rev. 3:14 says this …. ” These things says the Amen, the Faithful and the True Witness the Beginning of the creation of God. John 17:5 says ” And now O Father glorify Me together with Yourself with the Glory Which I had with You before the world was. In John 1:1 He is the Word, who was with God. And became a man. Through Him all was made…… All these Scriptures tell us that He was before all. Col. 1:18 says …..so that He will have Preeminence in all.  Meaning He was first to be born and first to be resurrected. Irene

Hi Irene,
I did not say anything wrong to dg. Kathi knows where I stand on this issue. You misunderstand me. I confess Christ's preexistence. He is the eternal, preexistent Word and He became flesh. I said that He is not the eternal or preexistent Son.

The preexistent Word became flesh and then through His obedience became God's begotten Son. Kathi believes that God reproduced like us humans and begat His Son. This is altogether grotesque. I have to stand up for what is right too so long as I am not calling people bad names.

thinker

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Cindy @ June 19 2009,01:12)

You know what thinker  You should really study this a little more, and not jump to conclusion.  I know how hard it is to change ones view, but look at these Scriptures I gave. I had to on this and other subjects.  I called the guy that first told us about it, crazy.  But God did not leave me in that unbelief, and I thank Him for it.  It has nothing to do with the trinity, like some think.  I do not believe in a trinity either. Peace and Love Irene

Irene,
I believe that Christ was preexistent but as the Word and not as Son. The Scriptures explicitly declare that He was begotten at His exaltation:

Acts 13:13: “God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm, 'You are My Son, today I have begotten you.' “

Hebrews 1:3b-5: “…after he had purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For to which of the angels did He ever say, 'You are my Son, today I have begotten you.' “

The verses you gave say nothing about His being begotten before His exaltation. Sorry  

thinker

[datguy]

Thanks for replies, I believe there is one God who is the father. 1Corinth 8:5,6
I believe that Jesus Christ is his son John 3:16
Christ who is the word became flesh, but I do believe there was a point before creation he did not exist Colossians 3:10

The scripture says that the word was God,not is God. Understanding that God is a title and not a name. Could it be that christ was the God of Israel, not is the God, of Israel, but was. Seeing that God created the world by him but the creation of the world itself was works of Christ's hands. Col 1:16 and Hebrews 1:10.

In Psalms 45:6, David being filled of the Holy Ghost prophesies of what is going on in the spirit relm. This is then quoted by Paul in Hebrews 1. This is when Christ who was in the form of God,( Phillipians 2:5) was being God to Israel. Christ then left his Glory to introduce men who believe to his father for the world knew not his father. John 17:25.

His father is then described as the only Potentate, the invisible God, the one dwelling in the light that no man can approach. 2 timothy 6:13-16. The one whom no man hath seen nor can see.
Peace be unto you all

[Lightenup]

Quote (thethinker @ June 18 2009,08:35)

Lightenup said to datguy: Quote The Son of GOD was begotten of the Most High GOD before anything came into being in heaven or on earth. dg, Don't you believe it! The Scriptures no where say that Christ was begotten “before anything came into being.” We are told THREE times in the new testament that the Son was begotten at His exaltation. There is absolutely no Scripture that puts the begetting of the Son before the exaltation. LU speaks on her own authority.   Lighetenup said: Quote Just as our nature is passed on to those we have begotten, so it was for the Son of GOD.  Man begets man, GOD begets God. dg, God cannot reproduce. Jesus was the Son by decree and not by God's reproducing Himself.   Lightenup said: Quote Since the Son is FROM someone, that rules Him out as being the Most High GOD but He is the Most High Son of GOD and the only begotten Son of GOD. dg, LU believes in two “gods” one being the Most High and the Son which is a lesser god. This is polytheism. Trinitarianism on the other hand confesses one true Elohim (plural) of three persons all co-equal in power and glory. Lightenup said: Quote So, that's my theory. dg, This is the only accurate statement LU has made. thinker

Datguy,
I'm sorry that there is this “thing” between the Thinker and myself.  Just read through it and make up your own mind.

Thinker,
Do you understand that no where in the Bible does it say that GOD cannot reproduce?  That is your opinion, not a fact that you can show us from scripture.  Also it is your opinion that it would be grotesque but you don't think it to be grotesque when people reproduce.  I certainly think if reproduction brought forth a perfect Son of GOD, then that would be a wonderful thing and not a grotesque thing.  So there you just have another opinion of yours and not scripture to back that up either.

Also, do you understand that trinitarianism claims an eternal “Son”, not an eternal “word.” BTW, I do believe that you deny that part of the trinity doctrine which means that you believe the doctrine to merely be “trueish” and not completely true. Also, do you understand that a word does not have abilities in and of itself, it is just a word which can or cannot represent something. The term “eternal word” is nowhere to be found in scriptures.  The thing/person that the word represents can have abilities in and of itself though and I think that is the case of John 1:1 where the word possibly represents “Light.”

We are NEVER told that the Son was begotten AT His exaltation, we are merely told that the one that was told “today I have begotten you” at some previous time was exalted because He hated lawlessness and loved righteousness.  He fulfilled one of the main reasons that He was begotten for in the first place-to lay down His life.

The Son had to have been begotten before anything was made in order to be called the “Firstborn” of all creation and to have laid the foundation of the earth as the Son.  This isn't so hard to understand Thinker.

Datguy again, I apologize that we cannot represent a unified answer for you and that some don't respect the theories of others when they can't prove it otherwise with scriptures but only discount it by their opinions.

I would bet that you have not found these terms in the scriptures:
triune God
co-equal
eternal word
co-eternal
first person
second person
third person
These terms trinitarians use but I believe they are missing unambiguious scriptural links sort of like evolution is missing links also.

So, datguy, think through this info and ask GOD to lead you.  Be strong and seek Him first and not man's opinion.  

Blessings,
Kathi

[Cindy]

thinker I am sorry, I was under the expression that you did not believe in the preexisting of Jesus. Do I

understand that you do not believe that God the Father was and still is the only Almighty God, while Christ is a Mighty God. There is only one God and datguy even gave you a Scripture.
Peace and Love Irene

[Cindy]

Quote (datguy @ June 19 2009,04:29)

Thanks for replies, I believe there is one God who is the father. 1Corinth 8:5,6 I believe that Jesus Christ is his son John 3:16 Christ who is the word became flesh, but I do believe there was a point before creation he did not exist Colossians 3:10 The scripture says that the word was God,not is God. Understanding that God is a title and not a name. Could it be that christ was the God of Israel, not is the God, of Israel, but was. Seeing that God created the world by him but the creation of the world itself was works of Christ's hands. Col 1:16 and Hebrews 1:10. In Psalms 45:6, David being filled of the Holy Ghost prophesies of what is going on in the spirit relm. This is then quoted by Paul in Hebrews 1. This is when Christ who was in the form of God,( Phillipians 2:5) was being God to Israel. Christ then left his Glory to introduce men who believe to his father for the world knew not his father. John 17:25. His father is then described as the only Potentate, the invisible God, the one dwelling in the light that no man can approach. 2 timothy 6:13-16. The one whom no man hath seen nor can see. Peace be unto you all

Hi datguy again. I was pleasantly surprised, that you believe in the preexisting of Jesus. Furthermore you do not believe in a trinity.
What surprised me the most is that you believe that God is a tittle. As far as I can see nobody except I believe that.
If you check Proverb 22-30 you will however see that Jesus already was the Son of God in the very beginning.
Proverb 8:22-30
verse 22 ” The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His works of old.
verse 23 ” I have been established from everlasting. From the beginning before there was ever an earth.
verse 24 When there were no depths I was brought forth. When there were no fountains abounding with water.
verse 25 ” Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills,
I was brought forth.
verse 26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields. Or the primeval dust of the world
verse 27 When He prepared the heaven, I was there. When He drew a circle on the face of the deep.
verse 28When He established the clouds above. When He strengthened the fountains of the deep.
verse 29 ” When He assigned to the sea its limits. So that the waters not transgress His command. When He marked the foundation of the earth.
verse 30 ” Then I was beside Him, as a master craftsman. And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him.

Peace and Love Irene

[Jodi Lee]

Welcome datguy! Love your user name by the way =)

John 1:1 is interesting for me because, even though I grew up in a church that believed in the pre-existence of Christ, I was kind of ignorant of it. When I started studying the bible a few years ago, I knew nothing of the debate and the scriptures in question. I read John 1:1 without ever thinking it was speaking of Jesus what so ever.  

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

What are words, mere utterances with no meaning having no affect?

When my husband tells me he loves me, those words are an expression of him, they represent him and how he feels, therefore they are him they are a part of him.

They are also with him in that they affect him, my husband carries those words inside him and they can affect his attitude, decisions and actions.

The words I love you, as well, exist apart from him, for they are being shared with someone else,
meaning that they affect me as well.

God’s words are the same they are of him, with him, and they are shared. Not only that but
God’s words are described themselves as a spirit, a spirit of life.

Joh 6:63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged
sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The word of God is living and powerful it was in the beginning with God, it was with God and was God.

Lu 4:4 But Jesus answered him, saying, “It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.' ”

Man shall live by the word of God, this word is with God and it is God, but it also lives and works in us who believe.

Genesis 3:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Adam and Eve did not believe in the word of God, they decided to test God's word, and it brought death. Jesus Christ lived BY EVERY word of God, and that brought him life.

1Th 2:13For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.

Hebrews 1:1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

The living word of God that was in the beginning with God, and was God for it expressed Him, was given by God to the prophets before it was given to Jesus. So how on earth could Jesus then be the word referred in John 1:1? It couldn’t be according to the simplicity that is Hebrews 1:1. Otherwise, the scripture would have read something more like the following,’ In the past God spoke through His spirit Son unto the prophets, but then brought Jesus to earth as a human to speak God’s word directly to us.’ This is nothing like what was actually said in verse 1.

John 10:29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one.” 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” 34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, 'I said, “You are gods” '?  35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.”

Is it not clear what Jesus was saying? Those whom the word of God came are called gods. Jesus spoke God’s words, and he lived in the fullness of those words, this is what makes him a Son of God and at one with God.  If we follow in Jesus example then we are also children of God and are one with God.

NOTICE, Jesus referred the word of God coming to the prophets as coming from God. Wouldn’t this have been a great opportunity for Jesus to say he existed before as a spirit Son bringing God’s word to the prophets?

Did God give His word to some pre-existing Jesus to then give to God’s messengers, to then give to the people and the prophets?

Ge 16:9The Angel of the Lord said to her, “Return to your mistress, and submit yourself under her hand.”

Ge 16:10Then the Angel of the Lord said to her, “I will multiply your descendants exceedingly, so that they shall not be counted for multitude.”

Ge 16:11And the Angel of the Lord said to her: “Behold, you are with child, And you shall bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, Because the Lord has heard your affliction.

Ge 22:11 But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” So he said, “Here I am.”

Ge 24:7 The Lord God of heaven, who took me from my father's house and from the land of my family, and who spoke to me and swore to me, saying, 'To your descendants I give this land,' He will send His angel before you, and you shall take a wife for my son from there

Ge 31:11 Then the Angel of God spoke to me in a dream, saying, 'Jacob.' And I said, 'Here I am.

Ex 3:2And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed.

Nu 22:32And the Angel of the Lord said to him, “Why have you struck your donkey these three times? Behold, I have come out to stand against you, because your way is perverse before Me.

Jud 2:1Then the Angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said: “I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, 'I will never break My covenant with you.

Jud 2:4So it was, when the Angel of the Lord spoke these words to all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voices and wept.

1Ch 21:18 Therefore, the angel of the Lord commanded Gad to say to David that David should go and erect an altar to the Lord on the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite.

Zec 1:9Then I said, “My lord, what are these?” So the angel who talked with me said to me, “I will show you what they are.”

Zec 1:19 And I said to the angel who talked with me, “What are these?” So he answered me, “These are the horns that have scattered Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem.”

Let’s look at Hebrews once again,

Hebrews 1:1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Ge 15:1 After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.”

Nu 12:6 Then He said, “Hear
now My words: “If there is a prophet among you, I, the Lord, make Myself known to him in a vision; I speak to him in a dream.

Daniel 5:10 The queen, because of the words of the king and his lords, came to the banquet hall. The queen spoke, saying, “O king, live forever! Do not let your thoughts trouble you, nor let your countenance change. 11 There is a man in your kingdom in whom is the Spirit of the Holy God. And in the days of your father, light and understanding and wisdom, like the wisdom of the gods, were found in him; and King Nebuchadnezzar your father–your father the king–made him chief of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans, and soothsayers. 12 Inasmuch as an excellent spirit, knowledge, understanding, interpreting dreams, solving riddles, and explaining enigmas were found in this Daniel, whom the king named Belteshazzar, now let Daniel be called, and he will give the interpretation.”

Jesus as the pre-existing word of God, IMO just does not add up in any way with what the scriptures as a whole tell us.  Hebrews says specifically that God spoke to the fathers by the prophets and the OT shows that God did that through angels and visions not through a Spirit Son. Hebrews says that in these last days God spoke to us by his Son, with no mention he spoke before as a pre-existent Son.

Does Jesus ever say he is the Son of God because he pre-existed as a spirit?  No, Jesus is shown in scripture to be God’s Son because he was a righteous human being exemplifying perfectly the character of God, and thus deserving of eternal life.

Titus 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, 3 but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior;

In the beginning was God’s word, and in that was the promise of eternal life. In due time God’s word that existed in the beginning would be manifested through preaching. The teaching of salvation and life was taught by the prophets, but it became flesh when Jesus, our means to salvation through God’s plan, was born. God’s word that existed in the beginning was that He would bring man into salvation and eternal life. This word was in the beginning, it was with God, and it was God, for God is Himself our salvation, our light giving us life.

Job 33:30 To bring back his soul from the Pit, That he may be enlightened with the light of life.

Ps 18:28 For You will light my lamp; The Lord my God will enlighten my darkness.

Ps 27:1 A Psalm of David. The Lord is my light and my salvation; Whom shall I fear? The Lord is the strength of my life; Of whom shall I be afraid?

Ps 36:9 For with You is the fountain of life; In Your light we see light.

Ps 56:13 For You have delivered my soul from death. Have You not kept my feet from falling, That I may walk before God In the light of the living?

Ps 119:130 The entrance of Your words gives light; It gives understanding to the simple.

Psalms 16:8 I have set the Lord always before me; Because He is at my right hand I shall not be moved. 9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoices; My flesh also will rest in hope. 10 For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. 11 You will show me the path of life; In Your presence is fullness of joy; At Your right hand are pleasures forevermore.

Acts 2:25 For David says concerning Him: 'I foresaw the Lord always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken. 26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope. 27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. 28 You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.' 29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.

John 17:1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

The glory that Jesus had in the beginning was the promise of God’s WORD of eternal life.  The glory that was in the beginning was God’s plan of righteousness in man, of which would equal eternal life.

Jesus came to fulfill the promise by being the way that God would carry out His promise. This promise, this Word, was with Him in the beginning. A spirit Son was not with God in the beginning.

[Jodi Lee]

Just read this scripture again,

Titus 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began, 3 but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior;

God’s plan is described in Romans,

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Our eternal life does not exist in some spirit son, but rather through the man Jesus our Messiah, who bore our sins and paid our penalty.

The word that was in the beginning was not a spirit Son, but was the promise of eternal life unto all men, of which God foreknew would come through the man Jesus, born of the seed of David.

Luke 1:67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying: 68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel, For He has visited and redeemed His people, 69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us In the house of His servant David, 70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets, Who have been since the world began, 71 That we should be saved from our enemies And from the hand of all who hate us, 72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers And to remember His holy covenant, 73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham: 74 To grant us that we, Being delivered from the hand of our enemies, Might serve Him without fear, 75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life. 76 And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Highest; For you will go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways, 77 To give knowledge of salvation to His people By the remission of their sins, 78 Through the tender mercy of our God, With which the Dayspring from on high has visited us; 79 To give light to those who sit in darkness and the shadow of death, To guide our feet into the way of peace.” 80 So the child grew and became strong in spirit, and was in the deserts till the day of his manifestation to Israel.

Luke 2:29 “Lord, now You are letting Your servant depart in peace, According to Your word; 30 For my eyes have seen Your salvation 31 Which You have prepared before the face of all peoples, 32 A light to bring revelation to the Gentiles, And the glory of Your people Israel.”

Joh 8:12 Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”

Ac 13:47 For so the Lord has commanded us: 'I have set you as a light to the Gentiles, That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.' “

2Co 4:6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

2Ti 1:8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

What was given to us before time began? A spirit son, or the promise of eternal life? How did eternal life come to us, through the works of God according to a spirit Son, or through a man of the seed of David?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.

Luke 1:76 And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Highest; For you will go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways, 77 To give knowledge of salvation to His people By the remission of their sins, 78 Through the tender mercy of our God, With which the Dayspring from on high has visited us; 79 To give light to those who sit in darkness and the shadow of death,

John 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.' ” 16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Lu 2:40 And the Child grew and became strong in spirit, filled with wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him.

Acts 20:2 So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

Romans 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God 2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh, 4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. 5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;

Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

God used Jesus to bring righteousness and eternal life. In the beginning God’s word was salvation, righteousness and eternal life for man. God’s word was NOT a pre-existing Jesus. God used Jesus born of a woman of the seed of David to FULFILL HIS WORD.

That Word, was in the beginning, it was with God as a plan of God dictating all of His actions. It was God, because it expresses who He is, our Salvation and our Eternal Life.

1Jo 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Believe in the name of Jesus, which means GOD SAVES. Believing in Jesus is believing that God brought us eternal life through him. The word of eternal life was in the beginning, but the man of our salvation to bring the Word to life, fulfilling the truth, was not yet manifested.

1 Peter 1:18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. 22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever

These scriptures directly tell us that there was NO Jesus in the beginning, Jesus was manifested later to be a preacher of the word of God.

Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

God predestined a man to come and carry out His word that was in the beginning, which according to Titus 1 was the word of eternal life.

Col 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

When searching for truth we must USE ALL of SCRIPTURE to form understanding.

We clearly have scripture that says it was God who spoke to people before Jesus of the seed of David, was born.  We clearly have scripture that tells us that Jesus is called firstborn for being firstborn of the dead.

Re 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,

The idea that Jesus represents the word in John 1:1, is extremely frustrating to me because it seems so blatantly false given the scriptures as a whole.

The creation in Genesis is detailed enough that I think if Jesus was actually created before Adam it would have been written in Genesis.  Luke 3 specifically shows us that Jesus was NOT created before Adam, it shows that Adam was the FIRST SON of God.  The OT shows us that firstborn males can legally lose their inheritance according to the Father’s desire if they feel the oldest is not worthy, since the inheritance comes with honor and authority.  Adam and all subsequent men born after him until the time of Jesus were not worthy due to sin, of holding the rights of firstborn son. The one worthy, being a true Son of God, exemplifying God’s character fully, is then also worthy of eternal life.  Jesus was not only firstborn of the dead, but he also gained Adam’s firstborn rights.

Luke 3:21 When all the people were baptized, it came to pass that Jesus also was baptized; and while He prayed, the heaven was opened. 22 And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.” 23 Now Jesus Himself began His ministry at about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Janna, the son of Joseph, 25 the son of Mattathiah, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, 26 the son of Maath, the son of Mattathiah, the son of Semei, the son of Joseph, the son of Judah, 27 the son of Joannas, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri, 28 the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmodam, the son of Er, 29 the son of Jose, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, 30 the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonan, the son of Eliakim, 31 the son of Melea, the son of Menan, the son of Mattathah, the son of Nathan, the son of David, 32 the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Salmon, the son of Nahshon, 33 the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, 34 the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, 35 the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, 36 the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, 37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel, the son of Cainan, 38 the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

From my understanding when John 1:1 says that the WORD was GOD, that does not mean that Jesus was God, the Word was the promise of eternal life, and God is eternal life. That word is the light of men and it became flesh with Jesus who God predestined to be our savior and our means to that promise that was from the beginning.

[Jodi Lee]

Adding our own ideas to scripture does not equal truth, rather it can make us into a false prophet.

Proverbs 8:1 Does not wisdom cry out, And understanding lift up her voice? 2 She takes her stand on the top of the high hill, Beside the way, where the paths meet. 3 She cries out by the gates, at the entry of the city, At the entrance of the doors: 4 “To you, O men, I call, And my voice is to the sons of men. 5 O you simple ones, understand prudence, And you fools, be of an understanding heart. 6 Listen, for I will speak of excellent things, And from the opening of my lips will come right things; 7 For my mouth will speak truth; Wickedness is an abomination to my lips. 8 All the words of my mouth are with righteousness; Nothing crooked or perverse is in them. 9 They are all plain to him who understands, And right to those who find knowledge. 10 Receive my instruction, and not silver, And knowledge rather than choice gold; 11 For wisdom is better than rubies, And all the things one may desire cannot be compared with her.

12 “I, wisdom, dwell with prudence, And find out knowledge and discretion. 13 The fear of the Lord is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverse mouth I hate. 14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom; I am understanding, I have strength. 15 By me kings reign, And rulers decree justice. 16 By me princes rule, and nobles, All the judges of the earth. 17 I love those who love me, And those who seek me diligently will find me. 18 Riches and honor are with me, Enduring riches and righteousness. 19 My fruit is better than gold, yes, than fine gold, And my revenue than choice silver. 20 I traverse the way of righteousness, In the midst of the paths of justice, 21 That I may cause those who love me to inherit wealth, That I may fill their treasuries.

22 “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. 23 I have been established from everlasting, From the beginning, before there was ever an earth. 24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills, I was brought forth; 26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, Or the primeval dust of the world. 27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep, 28 When He established the clouds above, When He strengthened the fountains of the deep, 29 When He assigned to the sea its limit, So that the waters would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth, 30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, 31 Rejoicing in His inhabited world, And my delight was with the sons of men.

32 “Now therefore, listen to me, my children, For blessed are those who keep my ways. 33 Hear instruction and be wise, And do not disdain it. 34 Blessed is the man who listens to me, Watching daily at my gates, Waiting at the posts of my doors. 35 For whoever finds me finds life, And obtains favor from the Lord; 36 But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul; All those who hate me love death.”  

She, the spirit of wisdom is not said anywhere to be a spirit son.

God built the heavens and the earth through His spirit of wisdom, which was a great delight to Him.

Ex 31:3 And I have filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

Ex 35:31 and He has filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom and understanding, in knowledge and all manner of workmanship,  

Ex 36:1 “And Bezalel and Aholiab, and every gifted artisan in whom the Lord has put wisdom and understanding, to know how to do all manner of work for the service of the sanctuary, shall do according to all that the Lord has

1Ki 3:28 And all Israel heard of the judgment which the king had rendered; and they feared the king, for they saw that the wisdom of God was in him to administer justice.

1Ki 5:12 So the Lord gave Solomon wisdom, as He had promised him; and there was peace between Hiram and Solomon, and the two of them made a treaty

Ps 51:6 Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts, And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom.

Ps 104:24 O Lord, how manifold are Your works! In wisdom You have made them all. The earth is full of Your possessions–

ALL these scriptures, and there are more that abound, expose the lie of Jesus being a pre-existent wisdom spirit that created the heavens and the earth.

Here's an especially good one…

Psalms 136:4 To Him who alone does great wonders, For His mercy endures forever; 5 To Him who by wisdom made the heavens, For His mercy endures forever; 6 To Him who laid out the earth above the waters, For His mercy endures forever; 7 To Him who made great lights, For His mercy endures forever– 8 The sun to rule by day, For His mercy endures forever; 9 The moon and stars to rule by night, For His mercy endures forever.

[Jodi Lee]

Scripture tells us directly, several times over, that YHWH created the Heavens and the Earth. Genesis 2:4, say that YHWH Elohim made the earth and heavens.

Isaiah 45:18 For thus says YHWH, Creator of the heavens, He is Elohim, Former of earth , and it's Maker, He established it, He did not create it to be empty, He formed it to be inhabited. I am YHWH, there is none else.

Eph 3:9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;

God did not create all things through a spirit son whom He made as His word and then had that word create the heavens and the earth. That is an idea of man added to scripture actually distorting it and in some cases going completely against it. God created all things through Jesus Christ, the human being anointed with God's Spirit born of the seed of David from the womb of Mary.

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.  

Let's STAY within what scripture say,

Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”? 6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.” 7 And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.” 8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” 10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

Who loved righteousness and hated lawlessness? Who was said to be the Son of God. Who purged our sins and died for us? A spirit son?

God made the world through Jesus Christ, NOT through a spirit son. There is a huge difference here. God made the world through the foreknowledge of the man Jesus.

Mt 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

God created earth for man, for humans to dwell upon it, when Jesus returns he is returning as a man, because he is, always has been and always will be a man.

We are told that Jesus Christ was predestined. We are told that Jesus Christ is the beginning, the firstborn of the dead. What we are not told is that he pre-existed as the word of God, creating the heavens and the earth.

The word of God was in the beginning, which according to Titus 1 that word was the promise of eternal life. This word was fulfilled and became flesh through Jesus Christ, the man who brought us God's promise of salvation.

[942767]

Hi Jodi, Thanks for these excellent posts.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[gollamudi]

Hi Jodi,
May God bless for those excellent insights on Jn1:1.
Love and peace
Adam

[GeneBalthrop]

Jodi……….remember your talents and continue to use them sis, God is using you to give soundness to his words. IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………………….gene

[datguy]

Hi Jodi, thanks for the information. According to Philipians 2:, Christ was in the form of God, and did not consider it robbery to be equal to God, yet made of himself no reputation taking the image of man………. This scripture suggest that he was in the form of God. Could you please then say when was it so. Please explain to me I really want to know.

[Author]

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