- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 21 2007,03:44) worshiping jesus > If your interliner Greek version desigrees with mine pleas be specific as to where with reguards to the subject i have mentioned i dought very much they disagree. but it is possible ihave two and they agree with what i said. mudding up the water doesn't help anyone.please be more spicific.
I never said it disagreed with the subject on hand.But mine does disagree with yours on John 1:1.
So my statement is simply that “Intilinears” also disagree just like interpretations.
Therefore we should leave it up to the translators and trust them with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Your “intelinear” is not a full proof method of translation!
worshipingjesus > why should i leave my understanding to anyone much less to translators who are under certain presuasions of false teachings i am not putting my salvation in any church or organizations hands. God gave me a brain to us and think with and i chose to use it.
doesn't it say to study to show (YOURSELF) aproved unto God, by rightly dividing the word of God. your showing (YOURSELF) that your aproved, not someone else.
and again the Borians were more noble than those in Thesolonicia becaused they searched the scriptures to see if what they heard was true.
you say they who tranlate the scriptures are under the influence of the holy spirit, then why so many different translations .
dosen't it say “because they recieve not the love of the truth that
(God) would send them a (delusion) in order for them to believe (the)lie. I wonder what lie He is taking about .i believe it's the lie about Jesus being (Desplayed as God) which all trenatarians espouse.
again i do not put my life in any organisations hands i put it in the
(ONE)and (ONLY) GOD, and NO OTHER.become a critual reader and hearer be a Borean…???
Hi W,
You say
“Therefore we should leave it up to the translators and trust them with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.”
??Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 21 2007,06:44) worshipingjesus > why should i leave my understanding to anyone much less to translators who are under certain presuasions of false teachings i am not putting my salvation in any church or organizations hands. God gave me a brain to us and think with and i chose to use it. doesn't it say to study to show (YOURSELF) aproved unto God, by rightly dividing the word of God. your showing (YOURSELF) that your aproved, not someone else.
and again the Borians were more noble than those in Thesolonicia becaused they searched the scriptures to see if what they heard was true.
you say they who tranlate the scriptures are under the influence of the holy spirit, then why so many different translations .
dosen't it say “because they recieve not the love of the truth that
(God) would send them a (delusion) in order for them to believe (the)lie. I wonder what lie He is taking about .i believe it's the lie about Jesus being (Desplayed as God) which all trenatarians espouse.
again i do not put my life in any organisations hands i put it in the
(ONE)and (ONLY) GOD, and NO OTHER.become a critual reader and hearer be a Borean…???
GYou say…
Quote
you say they who tranlate the scriptures are under the influence of the holy spirit, then why so many different translations .
I think you mis understood me.Let me restate.
We should trust the translators to know more about Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic than you and I.
We have the Holy Spirit of truth to guide us into all truth
If you dont trust the translations then what do you have?
Another mans “Intelinear”.
Again, My intelinear differs than yours on John 1:1
So you think that over 600 scholars were incorrect, and you base your trust on your one work, the “Intelinear”.
The variations in interpretations you speak of in the credible translations are few.
Yes you have a mind, you can choose to believe as you will.
You say…
Quote
(God) would send them a (delusion) in order for them to believe (the)lie. I wonder what lie He is taking about .i believe it's the lie about Jesus being (Desplayed as God) which all trenatarians espouse.
And I could also say that you are not saved if you dont believe that Jesus is God. But what proof would I have.I dont know your heart. Neither do you know if a I or any Trinitarian believes as stongly as you do.
You have no proof that what you say about “a strong delusion” is the Trinitarians belief.
I have more scriptures that say Jesus is God then you have that says he is not!
So again, your “Intelinear” is no full proof of interpretation.
You have your opinion and your scriptures and interpretation and I have mine.
May the Spirit of truth, The Spirit of God, the Spirit of Jesus, the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of adoption, the *ONE SPIRIT, GOD'S SPIRIT* lead us into all truth.
worshiping Jesus > Your bible or your Greek translation does not say Jesus is God if it does please present your proof, your triantarian asumptions do. please show men where any bible spicificly say's Jesus is God, but i can show you where Jesus said ” thou art the
(ONLY) true GodNow in my understanding the word (thou) does not mean (ME) does it. so i have that direct proof plus many others while you have only a mistranslation of the word (Word) but no direct statement by Jesus or any apostle . You would think that would be an important point for them to explain wouldn't you, if Jesus was going around saying he was God i cant find it, you cant either .surely such a issue as that would not be left to some obsquire unprovable, and undirect scriptures would it.
you use worshiping Jesus as your code name why not worship who Jesus worshiped and pray to who Jesus told us to pray to and that was the (ONLY) true GOD.
if you want i can give you the whole explanation of why i believe Jesus protrayed by others (not by himself ) as ( GOD)creates a condition of the man of sin . and yes being (WORSHIPED) as GOD too.
i can also give you a complete explanation of why the trenity doctrine started at the council of necia in 325 A.D. is not bibical also.
please don't think im pushing any organization because i am not a member of any and i didn't get what i learned of any either, it came from reading and studying.with what i believe was God's guidence.
i maintain don't buy every thing you have heard and read including what i have written here also check it out for yourself.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 21 2007,15:33) worshiping Jesus > Your bible or your Greek translation does not say Jesus is God if it does please present your proof, your triantarian asumptions do. please show men where any bible spicificly say's Jesus is God,
How about here:Titus 2:13 (NASB)
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,No, it doens't “specify” here that Jesus is God in any way whatsoever.
SPECIFIC: “Explicitly set forth, definite.”
Is 1:18, the verse in question in no sense of the word does this.
You have played with the bold and underlining to emphasize your understanding of this verse. But I can do the same:
Titus 2:13 (NASB)
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus.I took the comma out, because of course, comma's do not appear in the Greek. They were put in there in the way that the translator interpretted that verse. Adding a comma to the wrong place can obviously have a great impact:
the glory of our great God, and Savior Christ Jesus.
Notice how a comma, which is added, changes everything.
1934 “of the great God and of our The Riverside New
Savior Christ Jesus” Testament,Boston and
New York.1935 “of the great God and of our A New Translation of the
Saviour Christ Jesus” Bible, by James Moffatt, New
York and London.1950 “of the great God and of our New World Translation of
Savior Christ Jesus” the Christian Greek
Scriptures, Brooklyn.1957 “of the great God and of our La Sainte Bible, by Louis
Savior Jesus Christ” Segond, Paris.1970 “of the great God and of our The New American Bible,
Savior Christ Jesus” New York and London.1972 “of the great God and of The New Testament in
Christ Jesus our saviour” Modern English, by
J. B. Phillips, New York.So in responce to your question: “How about here”? as to whether this verse “specifically” says Jesus is God, IT DOES NOT SPECIFICALLY SAY THAT
Titus 2:13
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ JesusI assert that this is an explicit declaration of Yahshua’s deity. Here are my two pieces of substantive evidence:
1. Grammar
Granville Sharp's rule 1 applies here. Basically, the rule states that in a Greek sentence construction when two nouns, which are not proper names, but which are describing a person, are connected by the copulative conjunction “kai” (English=and), and the first noun has the article (“the”) while the second does not, both nouns are referring to the same subject (person). In the instance of Titus 2:13 the words “God” and “Saviour” are both used in reference to Yahshua.
“If two nouns of the same case are connected by a “kai” [and] and the article is used with both nouns, they refer to different persons or things. [Sharp's rule VI] If only the first noun has the article, the second noun refers to the same person or thing referred to in the first” Vaughn and Gideon, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament, p. 83.
This is not to be confused with GSR # IV where the definite article is used is association with BOTH nouns, in this instance the two nouns are referring to distinct things or persons. So the Greek in this verse is quite straightforward and unmistakably proclaims the deity of our Lord, Yahshua. 2 Peter 1:1 is another verse with this construction that also explicitly declares that Jesus is “our God”.
2. The context supports the grammar
Q) Whose “appearance are we expecting??
A) Yeshua's
It is Yahshua's “appearing” that He (Yahshua) and his followers told us to expect, the NT writers were expecting, and we should also be expecting:
Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.Matthew 24:3
As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”Matthew 24:30
“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.Mark 8:38
Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.Luke 21:27
And then they shall see the Son of man coming in a cloud of power and great glory.1 Thessalonians 3:13
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.1 Timothy 6:14
That you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ2 Timothy 1:10
but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel2 Timothy 4:1
I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:2 Timothy 4:8
in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearingRevelation 1:7
BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.Revelation 3:11
I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown.Revelation 22:7
“And behold, I am coming quickly Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book.”Revelation 22:12
“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.Revelation 22:20
He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly” Amen Come, Lord Jesus.There is no doubt that the subject, described with the appellative “Great God” in Titus 2:13 could only be Yahshua. No where in NT scripture are we told to expect the Father's appearance. In actual fact Paul (the writer of Titus) ONLY uses the Greek word for “appearing” (“epiphaneia”) with reference to Christ (in that context). So even if the the Granville sharp rule is ignored (but it shouldn't be), the context of Titus 2:13 still tells us Jesus is our “Great God”. Put the grammar and context together and it's irrefutable.
Titus 2:13
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ JesusAnticipate the “blessed hope” and the “glorious appearing” of our Great God and Savior Christ Jesus – that is Paul's explicit message in Titus 2:13.
Blessings
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 21 2007,13:34) We should trust the translators to know more about Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic than you and I. We have the Holy Spirit of truth to guide us into all truth
If you dont trust the translations then what do you have?
Another mans “Intelinear”.
Again, My intelinear differs than yours on John 1:1
So you think that over 600 scholars were incorrect,
To WJ.
It is sad to read your words.
Now for the translation of these words.
“I trust in man.”
But we shouldn't put our trust in man, WJ.
Jeremiah 17:5
This is what the LORD says: “Cursed is the one who trusts in man,It's not that you should reject all that men say, it is that you should weigh it up. It is not good enough to say 600 scholars cannot be incorrect and follow them blindly. There are also many scholars who say that John 1:1c is talking in a qualitive sense because if it was saying that the WORD was God, then only the Word is God to the exclusion of the Father.
In other words, even scholars have varying points of difference.
Were the Pharisees correct? But hang on, weren't they the teachers of the law? The pharisees as a whole, failed WJ and if you had put your trust in them, then how could you rise above them and not fail yourself.
Matthew 10:24
“A student is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master.Jesus said that your righteousness must exceed that of the pharisees. Would that have been possible if you blindly followed them?
Matthew 5:20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.Scholars and religious men shouldn't be trusted wholeheartedly either. In the realm of fine education do we not see many who believe that men came from monkeys? A name, badge, or prestiges job means nothing from a spiritual understanding. The truth is not of this world and God actually hides the truth often from those who are learned because of their pride.
Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.I think you should think these things over WJ.
Isa1:18 > we are looking for Jesus the anonited who will come in the glory of our Great God where does that say He is God. i maintain you are forcing the text. Show me where Jesus said he was God.i can't fine it, doint you think that would have been an inportant subject espically to the Jewish population of his day.
and there are many translators who translate you titus verse completely different then what you have shown.
the rules you state say they should not be proper name so are Jesus christ and God not proper names .???
Quote (t8 @ June 21 2007,22:39) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 21 2007,13:34) We should trust the translators to know more about Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic than you and I. We have the Holy Spirit of truth to guide us into all truth
If you dont trust the translations then what do you have?
Another mans “Intelinear”.
Again, My intelinear differs than yours on John 1:1
So you think that over 600 scholars were incorrect,
To WJ.
It is sad to read your words.
Now for the translation of these words.
“I trust in man.”
But we shouldn't put our trust in man, WJ.
Jeremiah 17:5
This is what the LORD says: “Cursed is the one who trusts in man,It's not that you should reject all that men say, it is that you should weigh it up. It is not good enough to say 600 scholars cannot be incorrect and follow them blindly. There are also many scholars who say that John 1:1c is talking in a qualitive sense because if it was saying that the WORD was God, then only the Word is God to the exclusion of the Father.
In other words, even scholars have varying points of difference.
Were the Pharisees correct? But hang on, weren't they the teachers of the law? The pharisees as a whole, failed WJ and if you had put your trust in them, then how could you rise above them and not fail yourself.
Matthew 10:24
“A student is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master.Jesus said that your righteousness must exceed that of the pharisees. Would that have been possible if you blindly followed them?
Matthew 5:20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.Scholars and religious men shouldn't be trusted wholeheartedly either. In the realm of fine education do we not see many who believe that men came from monkeys? A name, badge, or prestiges job means nothing from a spiritual understanding. The truth is not of this world and God actually hides the truth often from those who are learned because of their pride.
Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.I think you should think these things over WJ.
t8What a miserable world you must live in!
Do you have any friends? Do you “Trust them”?
Do you trust in the written word of God?
What a gross miss use of scripture. Do you trust your wife?
I said we have the Holy Spirit of Truth to lead us into all truth.
But here is the interpretation of your words…
“I dont trust in the written scriptures because they are translated by man”!
I trust only in my ability to translate scripture, even though I have no credentials or cant even recite the Greek or Hebrew alphabet.
Is that about it t8? This is what you believe isnt it?
Is this why you disagree with the over 600 translators that translated John 1:1?
I see, you put yourself above them. You are a “Modern day” Prohpet!
All hail t8 and heavennet. He has “All truth” and understands more about the scriptures than any of the experts.
John 1:1 means what it says.
If you put your Henotheistic interpretation on it then you make God a liar.
Who created all things t8.
Did he not do it alone?
Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.But you say God did it thruogh a lesser being!
Who is from eternity before time other than God?
You have a contradiction if you interpret John 1:1-3 any other way.
John was a true Monotheist. You should trust his words. He knew of the following scriptures…
Isa 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.Isa 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.Isa 44:8
Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.Isa 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.t8 God made all things by himself!
There is two realitys in the universe…
God and creation!
You should trust the scriptures. The Apostles did!
Here is the true interpretation of John 1:1…
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1375
Anyway, I you made my point for me Is 1:18, that it does not in fact specifically or explicitely state that Jesus is God in this scripture. If it did, your words would have been unnecessary.
Which translation agrees with Titus 1:4, which refers to “God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior”? Although the Scriptures also refer to God as being a Savior, this text clearly differentiates between him and Christ Jesus, the one through whom God provides salvation.
Some argue that Titus 2:13 indicates that Christ is both God and Savior. Interestingly, RS, NE, TEV, JB render Titus 2:13 in a way that might be construed as allowing for that view, but they do not follow the same rule in their translation of 2 Thessalonians 1:12. Henry Alford, in The Greek Testament, states: “I would submit that [a rendering that clearly differentiates God and Christ, at Titus 2:13] satisfies all the grammatical requirements of the sentence: that it is both structurally and contextually more probable, and more agreeable to the Apostle’s way of writing.”—(Boston, 1877), Vol. III, p. 421.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ June 21 2007,22:17) Titus 2:13
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ JesusI assert that this is an explicit declaration of Yahshua’s deity. Here are my two pieces of substantive evidence:
1. Grammar
Granville Sharp's rule 1 applies here. Basically, the rule states that in a Greek sentence construction when two nouns, which are not proper names, but which are describing a person, are connected by the copulative conjunction “kai” (English=and), and the first noun has the article (“the”) while the second does not, both nouns are referring to the same subject (person). In the instance of Titus 2:13 the words “God” and “Saviour” are both used in reference to Yahshua.
“If two nouns of the same case are connected by a “kai” [and] and the article is used with both nouns, they refer to different persons or things. [Sharp's rule VI] If only the first noun has the article, the second noun refers to the same person or thing referred to in the first” Vaughn and Gideon, A Greek Grammar of the New Testament, p. 83.
This is not to be confused with GSR # IV where the definite article is used is association with BOTH nouns, in this instance the two nouns are referring to distinct things or persons. So the Greek in this verse is quite straightforward and unmistakably proclaims the deity of our Lord, Yahshua. 2 Peter 1:1 is another verse with this construction that also explicitly declares that Jesus is “our God”.
2. The context supports the grammar
Q) Whose “appearance are we expecting??
A) Yeshua's
It is Yahshua's “appearing” that He (Yahshua) and his followers told us to expect, the NT writers were expecting, and we should also be expecting:
Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.Matthew 24:3
As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”Matthew 24:30
“And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.Mark 8:38
Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.Luke 21:27
And then they shall see the Son of man coming in a cloud of power and great glory.1 Thessalonians 3:13
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.1 Timothy 6:14
That you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ2 Timothy 1:10
but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel2 Timothy 4:1
I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:2 Timothy 4:8
in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearingRevelation 1:7
BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.Revelation 3:11
I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown.Revelation 22:7
“And behold, I am coming quickly Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book.”Revelation 22:12
“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.Revelation 22:20
He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly” Amen Come, Lord Jesus.There is no doubt that the subject, described with the appellative “Great God” in Titus 2:13 could only be Yahshua. No where in NT scripture are we told to expect the Father's appearance. In actual fact Paul (the writer of Titus) ONLY uses the Greek word for “appearing” (“epiphaneia”) with reference to Christ (in that context). So even if the the Granville sharp rule is ignored (but it shouldn't be), the context of Titus 2:13 still tells us Jesus is our “Great God”. Put the grammar and context together and it's irrefutable.
Titus 2:13
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ JesusAnticipate the “blessed hope” and the “glorious appearing” of our Great God and Savior Christ Jesus – that is Paul's explicit message in Titus 2:13.
Blessings
Isa 1:18Amen! Amen!
But they wont believe if Jesus was standing in front of them and proclaimed it.
They would say… Lord are you sure that you are God?
1934 “of the great God and of our The Riverside New
Savior Christ Jesus” Testament,Boston and
New York.1935 “of the great God and of our A New Translation of the
Saviour Christ Jesus” Bible, by James Moffatt, New
York and London.1950 “of the great God and of our New World Translation of
Savior Christ Jesus” the Christian Greek
Scriptures, Brooklyn.1957 “of the great God and of our La Sainte Bible, by Louis
Savior Jesus Christ” Segond, Paris.1970 “of the great God and of our The New American Bible,
Savior Christ Jesus” New York and London.1972 “of the great God and of The New Testament in
Christ Jesus our saviour” Modern English, by
J. B. Phillips, New York.In this place we find two nouns connected by καί (kai, “and”), the first noun being preceded by the definite article τοῦ (tou, “of the”) and the second noun without the definite article. A similar construction is found in 2Pe 1:1, 2, where, in vs 2, a clear distinction is made between God and Jesus. This indicates that when two distinct persons are connected by καί, if the first person is preceded by the definite article it is not necessary to repeat the definite article before the second person. Examples of this construction in the Greek text are found in Ac 13:50; 15:22; Eph 5:5; 2Th 1:12; 1Ti 5:21; 6:13; 2Ti 4:1. This construction is also found in LXX. (See Pr 24:21 ftn.) According to An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, by C. F. D. Moule, Cambridge, England, 1971, p. 109, the sense “of the great God, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ . . . is possible in κοινή [koi·ne′] Greek even without the repetition [of the definite article].”
A detailed study of the construction in Tit 2:13 is found in The Authorship of the Fourth Gospel and Other Critical Essays, by Ezra Abbot, Boston, 1888, pp. 439-457. On p. 452 of this work the following comments are found: “Take an example from the New Testament. In Matt. xxi. 12 we read that Jesus ‘cast out all those that were selling and buying in the temple,’ τοὺς πωλοῦντας καὶ ἀγοράζοντας [tous po·loun′tas kai a·go·ra′zon·tas]. No one can reasonably suppose that the same persons are here described as both selling and buying. In Mark the two classes are made distinct by the insertion of τούς before ἀγοράζοντας; here it is safely left to the intelligence of the reader to distinguish them. In the case before us [Tit 2:13], the omission of the article before σωτῆρος [so·te′ros] seems to me to present no difficulty,—not because σωτῆρος is made sufficiently definite by the addition of ἡμῶν [he·mon′] (Winer), for, since God as well as Christ is often called “our Saviour,” ἡ δόξα τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν [he do′xa tou me·ga′lou The·ou′ kai so·te′ros he·mon′], standing alone, would most naturally be understood of one subject, namely, God, the Father; but the addition of ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ to σωτῆρος ἡμῶν changes the case entirely, restricting the σωτῆρος ἡμῶν to a person or being who, according to Paul’s habitual use of language, is distinguished from the person or being whom he designates as ὁ θεός [ho The·os′], so that there was no need of the repetition of the article to prevent ambiguity. So in 2 Thess. i. 12, the expression κατὰ τὴν χάριν τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ κυρίου [ka·ta′ ten kha′rin tou The·ou′ he·mon′ kai ky·ri′ou] would naturally be understood of one subject, and the article would be required before κυρίου if two were intended; but the simple addition of ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ to κυρίου makes the reference to the two distinct subjects clear without the insertion of the article.”
Therefore, in Tit 2:13, two distinct persons, Jehovah God and Jesus Christ, are mentioned. Throughout the Holy Scriptures it is not possible to identify Jehovah and Jesus as being the same individual.
–Appendix in the NWT.
David
Yes run to watch tower and post some more of their distorted truth!
How many pages do we have to endure this time?
In connection with Titus 2:13 the question is whether the Greek should be rendered ‘the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,’ or ‘the glory of the great God, and of our Savior Jesus Christ.’
As Vincent Taylor observes:“The grammarians range themselves on both sides.”–The Expository Times, January 1962, page 117
Hence, it cannot be claimed that at this place Jesus is specifically called God. It is neither explicit or definite.
Quote Yes run to watch tower and post some more of their distorted truth! How many pages do we have to endure this time?
Is 1:18 contends that this verse is essentially undisputed in stating that Jesu is God.
He is clearly wrong.
Quote (david @ June 22 2007,12:57) 1934 “of the great God and of our The Riverside New
Savior Christ Jesus” Testament,Boston and
New York.1935 “of the great God and of our A New Translation of the
Saviour Christ Jesus” Bible, by James Moffatt, New
York and London.1950 “of the great God and of our New World Translation of
Savior Christ Jesus” the Christian Greek
Scriptures, Brooklyn.1957 “of the great God and of our La Sainte Bible, by Louis
Savior Jesus Christ” Segond, Paris.1970 “of the great God and of our The New American Bible,
Savior Christ Jesus” New York and London.1972 “of the great God and of The New Testament in
Christ Jesus our saviour” Modern English, by
J. B. Phillips, New York.In this place we find two nouns connected by καί (kai, “and”), the first noun being preceded by the definite article τοῦ (tou, “of the”) and the second noun without the definite article. A similar construction is found in 2Pe 1:1, 2, where, in vs 2, a clear distinction is made between God and Jesus. This indicates that when two distinct persons are connected by καί, if the first person is preceded by the definite article it is not necessary to repeat the definite article before the second person. Examples of this construction in the Greek text are found in Ac 13:50; 15:22; Eph 5:5; 2Th 1:12; 1Ti 5:21; 6:13; 2Ti 4:1. This construction is also found in LXX. (See Pr 24:21 ftn.) According to An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, by C. F. D. Moule, Cambridge, England, 1971, p. 109, the sense “of the great God, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ . . . is possible in κοινή [koi·ne′] Greek even without the repetition [of the definite article].”
A detailed study of the construction in Tit 2:13 is found in The Authorship of the Fourth Gospel and Other Critical Essays, by Ezra Abbot, Boston, 1888, pp. 439-457. On p. 452 of this work the following comments are found: “Take an example from the New Testament. In Matt. xxi. 12 we read that Jesus ‘cast out all those that were selling and buying in the temple,’ τοὺς πωλοῦντας καὶ ἀγοράζοντας [tous po·loun′tas kai a·go·ra′zon·tas]. No one can reasonably suppose that the same persons are here described as both selling and buying. In Mark the two classes are made distinct by the insertion of τούς before ἀγοράζοντας; here it is safely left to the intelligence of the reader to distinguish them. In the case before us [Tit 2:13], the omission of the article before σωτῆρος [so·te′ros] seems to me to present no difficulty,—not because σωτῆρος is made sufficiently definite by the addition of ἡμῶν [he·mon′] (Winer), for, since God as well as Christ is often called “our Saviour,” ἡ δόξα τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος ἡμῶν [he do′xa tou me·ga′lou The·ou′ kai so·te′ros he·mon′], standing alone, would most naturally be understood of one subject, namely, God, the Father; but the addition of ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ to σωτῆρος ἡμῶν changes the case entirely, restricting the σωτῆρος ἡμῶν to a person or being who, according to Paul’s habitual use of language, is distinguished from the person or being whom he designates as ὁ θεός [ho The·os′], so that there was no need of the repetition of the article to prevent ambiguity. So in 2 Thess. i. 12, the expression κατὰ τὴν χάριν τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν καὶ κυρίου [ka·ta′ ten kha′rin tou The·ou′ he·mon′ kai ky·ri′ou] would naturally be understood of one subject, and the article would be required before κυρίου if two were intended; but the simple addition of ᾿Ιησοῦ Χριστοῦ to κυρίου makes the reference to the two distinct subjects clear without the insertion of the article.”
Therefore, in Tit 2:13, two distinct persons, Jehovah God and Jesus Christ, are mentioned. Throughout the Holy Scriptures it is not possible to identify Jehovah and Jesus as being the same individual.
–Appendix in the NWT.
Thank you, David!Although they won't believe you.
When Jesus appears they will say, “Oh dear! We thought you were God Almighty himself!” And Jesus will say, “That's my Father and your Father. My God and your God. Where did you go astray?”
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
