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Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 19 2007,15:50) t8 > the problem existes with the word (became) ask yourself what does that really mean, if you check it out you will find it means came to be, came to be how? seening its impossible for any word to be flesh because a word is not FLESH. so what is the next logical conclusion is it not the word came to be (IN) flesh , yes the word was in Jesus and how was it in him, through holy spirit. thats why Jesus could say the words he was speaking weren't his because it was God who was speaking through him and God was speaking his words through him thats why Jesus gave God all the glory.
in the beginning was the word and the word was GOD and God was in Jesus through the anointing yes the Word was in Him.
Hi GB,
John said he saw the Word.
1Jn1
” 1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) “
Rev 19
” 11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. “
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 19 2007,15:53) The verse makes sense to me.
And it makes sense because I believe Jesus did exist in God's plan. It was through this plan that God created everything.
So was Jesus always part of God's plan or was he a backup for Adam who stuffed up.What would have happened if Adam didn't sin? Would Jesus exist to your way of thinking and in what capacity?
If yes, then why not start with Christ instead of Adam?
I don't really expect an answer to these questions, but these are normal thoughts that come from accepting your idea.
I see it as Adam sinning and God sent an even greater to redeem us. If God made the world through him, then of course he can redeem the world through him too.
nick . > Yes John heard and saw the word and handled it , what was it he handled and saw and heard in the beginning was it not in the written word that was read and taught in every Jewish community,and was it not the word of life written in those scrolls
what was John showing them it couldn't have been Jesus because when that was written Jesus was rasied and in heaven he was showing them the eternal life that God performed by rasing Jesus from the dead and that life was possible for us also.
you have yet to answer the question why if Jesus was the word did he say the words he was speaking were not his. please address that question. thanks
nick . > Yes John heard and saw the word and handled it , what was it he handled and saw and heard in the beginning was it not in the written word that was read and taught in every Jewish community,and was it not the word of life written in those scrolls
what was John showing them it couldn't have been Jesus because when that was written Jesus was rasied and in heaven he was showing them the eternal life that God performed by rasing Jesus from the dead and that life was possible for us also.
you have yet to answer the question why if Jesus was the word did he say the words he was speaking were not his. please address that question. thanks???
t8> i think Paul says Jesus was the second man Adam i can't find it right now but ill try to look it up. not sure though.
hi nick> if you would have said, should Jesus not spoke the word of God i would agree with you because Jesus certinly spoke God's word to us, but it one thing to say he spoke the words of God to us and another to say he is the word of God. this is where all the confusion comes from because if you say he is tha word of God then you have to say he is God.???
nick > please answer my question if Jesus is the word then why did he say in three places the words he spoke were not his. would that not disqulify him as being the (WORD) please explain this to me,if you can. thank you for responding.
Quote (t8 @ June 19 2007,16:33) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 19 2007,15:53) The verse makes sense to me.
And it makes sense because I believe Jesus did exist in God's plan. It was through this plan that God created everything.
So was Jesus always part of God's plan or was he a backup for Adam who stuffed up.What would have happened if Adam didn't sin? Would Jesus exist to your way of thinking and in what capacity?
If yes, then why not start with Christ instead of Adam?
I don't really expect an answer to these questions, but these are normal thoughts that come from accepting your idea.
I see it as Adam sinning and God sent an even greater to redeem us. If God made the world through him, then of course he can redeem the world through him too.
Good questions!I'll take a stab at answering them.
If Adam didn't sin and all was good…..then Jesus would have never been conceived and born. Would he have existed at all? Possibly God would long for his own child, I don't really know? But Jesus would have not been alive physically.
Jesus is the second Adam. Adam was a son of God but not begotten; Adam was created. So in that sense, possibly, Jesus is “greater” than Adam. But he is compared to Adam for a reason. Scripture does not tell us that Jesus is greater than Adam – does it?
When you say that God made the world through Jesus, what does that mean to you? Did Jesus help create the world? Did Jesus actually create things?
It does say that the head of Christ is God and the head of the man is Christ.
Regarding creation, God created all through Christ.
God is Spirit and is way beyond our ways. Between God and man is a mediator. Through Christ we were created and through Christ we can see God.
God > Christ > Man
Not, God > Man.
No one can come to God except through Christ and it is through Christ that everything came into being. I can't give you the technical details because I wasn't there, but God made all things through Christ and for Christ.
Hi GB,
He also said in Jn 14
” I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me'
and in Jn11
” I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:'as well as in Jn 6
” 63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”Why should one sentence and one usage disqualify another?
Hi Nick > let's think about what you quoted in JN 14 it shows Jesus was certainly the way, and spoke the truth and you can't go to the Father any other way then the ( way ) Jesus did. Jesus was only saying the way he was doing it was the one and only way to be accepted by the Father. again you glorify the messenger but it was not about the messenger it was about the message.
Notice he said the words i speak unto you are spirit (Godly intellect) and (they) are life, he didn't say he was did he. he was focusing us on what he was saying not on himself.
and the one sentence dosen't disqualify anything Jesus said, but it does disqulify what trenitarians are saying about Him. Obviously there seems to be a counterdiction with reguards to Jesus (being) the WORD . It's one thing to say Jesus was speaking God's words to us and quite another to say he was the word.
Show me where Jesus ever took the position being the word. Speaking God's word to us or being God's word are two different things, one represents God the Father the other is being God .
My God help us all to come to the unity of the spirit of God.
t8 > what you quoted is right but here's the problem. All greek writing originaly were translated using captial letters and the refference of the word christ is especually difficult. If we Captlize the word Christ we mean Jesus the person but if we don't we mean the anointing or holy spirit.
there is a place that say's that Christ was that rock that followed the childern of Isreal in the wilderness. many use that to mean Jesus preexisted and if that word was not capitalized it would meantha it was the anointing or holy spirit that was following them in the wilderness. i prefure to us the anointing or holy spirit that was following them.
i believe a lot of things could be cleared up by having the proper lettering in our bibles. you must remember the bible was translated by religions who were under the trentairian teachings, so when ever the could instert the idea Jesus was God they would do when translating the text.
read it both way and see what you think. God bless
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 20 2007,04:24) t8 > what you quoted is right but here's the problem. All greek writing originaly were translated using captial letters and the refference of the word christ is especually difficult. If we Captlize the word Christ we mean Jesus the person but if we don't we mean the anointing or holy spirit. there is a place that say's that Christ was that rock that followed the childern of Isreal in the wilderness. many use that to mean Jesus preexisted and if that word was not capitalized it would meantha it was the anointing or holy spirit that was following them in the wilderness. i prefure to us the anointing or holy spirit that was following them.
i believe a lot of things could be cleared up by having the proper lettering in our bibles. you must remember the bible was translated by religions who were under the trentairian teachings, so when ever the could instert the idea Jesus was God they would do when translating the text.
read it both way and see what you think. God bless
Yes, I also agree with most of what you are saying here Gene.Quote (t8 @ June 19 2007,20:02) No one can come to God except through Christ and it is through Christ that everything came into being. I can't give you the technical details because I wasn't there, but God made all things through Christ and for Christ.
Hi t8,Yes, it's true that God created everything through Christ. I believe this. But as you say, because we were not there, we are speculating about the *through* part.
Is it not possible for God to have created everything *through* Christ and it not mean a physical person? And if no, why not?
not2in1 >..right God created everything through the christos or Holy Spirit not Christ the Man. God plainly says He created the heavens and the earth by himself and He uses the word by (myself) and i believe myself means no one else was with Him.
bible students need to understand how word meannings can be changed by captliations and also by puting the defenit article (the) in front of words .
for instance if we say no flesh shall be justified before God by works of (the) law, we are saying we are not made right by obey the ten commandments because the article (the) makes it apear that he was talking about the ten commandments, but the orignal greek does not contain the artical (the).
now if we remove the article (the) is say's by works of law shall no flesh be justified,
why because (Law) means forced compliance and forceing some one to obey like law does never makes them right in their hearts. so Pual was not talking about our obeying the commandments of God at all he was talking how we are obeying them.the only issue is how are are obeying not should we obey.a good Greek interlinear can help. our bible text has many transulation errors , which causes many wrong concepts but if we search we can find truth.
God blesses all who ask, seek,and knock
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 21 2007,02:30) not2in1 >..right God created everything through the christos or Holy Spirit not Christ the Man. God plainly says He created the heavens and the earth by himself and He uses the word by (myself) and i believe myself means no one else was with Him. bible students need to understand how word meannings can be changed by captliations and also by puting the defenit article (the) in front of words .
for instance if we say no flesh shall be justified before God by works of (the) law, we are saying we are not made right by obey the ten commandments because the article (the) makes it apear that he was talking about the ten commandments, but the orignal greek does not contain the artical (the).
now if we remove the article (the) is say's by works of law shall no flesh be justified,
why because (Law) means forced compliance and forceing some one to obey like law does never makes them right in their hearts. so Pual was not talking about our obeying the commandments of God at all he was talking how we are obeying them.the only issue is how are are obeying not should we obey.a good Greek interlinear can help. our bible text has many transulation errors , which causes many wrong concepts but if we search we can find truth.
God blesses all who ask, seek,and knock
So what do you do when your “Intilinear” has errors, because yours disagrees with mine?worshiping jesus > If your interliner Greek version desigrees with mine pleas be specific as to where with reguards to the subject i have mentioned i dought very much they disagree. but it is possible ihave two and they agree with what i said.
mudding up the water doesn't help anyone.please be more spicific.
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