The word and the flesh

[NickHassan]

Hi KM,
The Spirit of God taught through Jesus.
Why do men attribute his sayings to the vessel?

[karmarie]

Hi  Barley and Nick,

If all was created through Jesus why do people say it wasnt?

The hills the mountains the sun the flowers trees rivers everything man desires and wants to own to have, scripture says all was made through and for him , yet we live here we “look after it” yet so many here try to say thats not true, He wasnt there.?

How many say that here? Even Jehovah witnesses who are considered wrong in others eyes, even they say Jesus was there before.

For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him…col 1:16

All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made. John 1

For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen…Romans 11:36

[NickHassan]

Hi KM,
Now the Lord is the Spirit.
It is the anointing of God that gave Jesus his abilities.
That anointing was active among men before Jesus was born of Mary[1Peter1]

[karmarie]

Hi Nick, so you dont believe Jesus pre-existed either? The scriptures say he did. I believe he did. Most believers believe he did, the earliest church did, the only ones who dont are those like christadelphians, ebionites,

[NickHassan]

Hi KM,
The Spirit of Christ did.

[GeneBalthrop]

Nick………….Yes the (ANOINTING always existed it was GOD'S Presents and Indeed that Anointing was (in )The anointed Jesus. I really do not believe , you believe Jesus preexisted His berth on earth either. Maybe your just afraid to say it because of T8 or something.

peace and love to you and yours……………………..gene

[karmarie]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 01 2010,11:48)

Hi KM, The Spirit of Christ did.

Hi Nick, I agree, thats what I meant.

[Ed J]

Quote (Ed J @ June 30 2010,13:48)

Quote (Ed J @ June 26 2010,13:47) Quote (barley @ June 26 2010,13:34) How could have God chose us in him before the foundation of the world?  Were you or I or any other believer with God before the foundation of the world?  No, not at all.   Hi Barley, You make an assumption. What about these verses… John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning. Jer.1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. God bless Ed J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Hi Barley, OK; let's go back to where we started… Neither Jesus nor us, is the assumption you make, were with God in the beginning. The beginning being defined as: before the foundation of the world, as in “before” all Created matter. Does this help to define 'your assumption'? That is why I produced John 15:27 and Jer.1:5; both of those verses “could” be referring to pre-Creation. So I posted them for you to explain why 'you' don't believe this is possible. Are we back on track now? God bless Ed J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Bump for Barley

[barley]

Quote (Ed J @ June 30 2010,13:48)

Quote (Ed J @ June 26 2010,13:47) Quote (barley @ June 26 2010,13:34) How could have God chose us in him before the foundation of the world?  Were you or I or any other believer with God before the foundation of the world?  No, not at all.   Hi Barley, You make an assumption. What about these verses… John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning. Jer.1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. God bless Ed J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Hi Barley, OK; let's go back to where we started… Neither Jesus nor us, is the assumption you make, were with God in the beginning. The beginning being defined as: before the foundation of the world, as in “before” all Created matter. Does this help to define 'your assumption'? That is why I produced John 15:27 and Jer.1:5; both of those verses “could” be referring to pre-Creation. So I posted them for you to explain why 'you' don't believe this is possible. Are we back on track now? God bless Ed J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

I do not in the general scheme of the scriptures, have any reason to conclude that either you or I or Jeremiah or Jesus Christ existed before we were born.  

God, having foreknowledge would have know about us before our conceptions and births, even as far back as “before the foundations of the world”.  

God's foreknowledge does not indicate “preexistence.”  

Consider John 15:27.  See Mark 1:1.  “The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the son of God.”  Mark is the simpler solution, than Genesis 1.  

In the question of preexistence.  Who preexisted?   Believers?  Unbelievers?  Animals,  why not?  Were they not alive before Adam and Eve?  Preexistence causes problems and solves none.

Why would believers preexist?   Why bother with sending them down to earth to live if we were already with God before?  What about unbelievers?  Why send them down to earth to live if they were already with God before?  What is this another test from God?   If they were unbelievers before, why would they change now?  Maybe someone says, so JC could save them?  If we already were alive with God and Jesus Christ before, why couldn't God and JC save the unbelievers without a heaven and an earth?  

See, more problems, no solutions.  

Jeremiah was known by God before his conception.  That does not surprise me.  God foretold John the Baptist.  God foretold that out of Abraham all nations would be blessed.  God has foreknowledge.

[barley]

Quote (karmarie @ June 30 2010,22:47)

Hi  Barley and Nick, If all was created through Jesus why do people say it wasnt? The hills the mountains the sun the flowers trees rivers everything man desires and wants to own to have, scripture says all was made through and for him , yet we live here we “look after it” yet so many here try to say thats not true, He wasnt there.? How many say that here? Even Jehovah witnesses who are considered wrong in others eyes, even they say Jesus was there before. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him…col 1:16 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made. John 1 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen…Romans 11:36

The scripture taken as a whole does not indicate that Jesus Christ was there at the creation.  

This is a very simple truth.  

In a very practical sense, inanimate objects are part of the process of their formation.  

Consider that one of the hobbies I have had is woodcarving.  Does the duck I carve part of the process of its formation.  Yes,  If I had decided to carve a squirrel, the duck would not have shown up.  The carving took shape as I continued to work toward the goal of carving the duck.  I carved the shape by the duck.  I did not carve the shape of a duck by seeing a squirrel in my mind.  The duck carving did not exist until I carved it.  However, as I carried out my plan to have a carved duck, the duck was eventually there.

Jesus Christ is man's redeemer.  God, foreknowing of Adam and Eve's fall, planned for a redeemer.  He planned for  redeemer as he created the heavens and the earth.  He made sure that a redeemer would happen without overstepping man's will to choose.  God created the heavens and the earth by His design to send a redeemer.  He planned and created the worlds by his plan.  He planned and created the worlds by Jesus Christ.

Too many people spend too much time watching television, I think.  People do not understand the practical realities of living and achieving goals.  Once I got away from the fantasies of TV, I could actually accomplish useful goals in my life.  

God is not a fantasy,  He planned and created the worlds by Jesus Christ so that man could be redeemed.

Colossians 1:16,  see Genesis 1:1, in the beginning God, God alone, created the heavens and the earth.  Jesus Christ was the central focus of the plan, but not the creator.  

John 1:3, all things were made by him, him who?  God.  See Genesis 1:1, God, God alone.  The word did not create, God created, by himself alone.

Romans 11:36 is in the context of God's judgements and His ways being past finding out.  verse 33.  Lord in verse 34 is referring to the Lord God.  Who has known the mind of the Lord?  We cannot know all there is to know of the mind of God, but we can let this mind be in us which was in Christ Jesus.  Jesus Christ, the man, not God, has a mind that we are capable of knowing, we are capable of having Christ's mind in us.  But we cannot handle having God's mind in us, God's mind is too big, etc.

[Ed J]

Quote (barley @ July 02 2010,12:26)

Why would believers preexist?   Why bother with sending them down to earth to live if we were already with God before?  What about unbelievers?  Why send them down to earth to live if they were already with God before?  What is this another test from God?   If they were unbelievers before, why would they change now?  Maybe someone says, so JC could save them?  If we already were alive with God and Jesus Christ before, why couldn't God and JC save the unbelievers without a heaven and an earth?   See, more problems, no solutions.

Hi Barley,

Glad you are now ready to reason together with me concerning us. (Isaiah 1:18)
Rev.12:4 may indicate a Luciferian rebellion involving a third of the Angels of Heaven.
1Peter 1:18-22 may be speaking of an interaction with rebellious Spirits by Jesus Christ.

What if we were all with God in Spirit form before we were born here as our Human experience? (John 15:27)
What if we all agreed to: let's call it “A mind Sweep” to erase our Pre-existence memories. (Psalm 22:17)
This would allow all to see who will follow God and who will follow Lucifer/Satan? (Hebrews 2:3)
Have you ever considered that this may in fact be what Life is all about? (2Corinthians 6:2)
 
God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[barley]

Quote (Ed J @ July 02 2010,13:09)

Quote (barley @ July 02 2010,12:26) Why would believers preexist?   Why bother with sending them down to earth to live if we were already with God before?  What about unbelievers?  Why send them down to earth to live if they were already with God before?  What is this another test from God?   If they were unbelievers before, why would they change now?  Maybe someone says, so JC could save them?  If we already were alive with God and Jesus Christ before, why couldn't God and JC save the unbelievers without a heaven and an earth?   See, more problems, no solutions.   Hi Barley, Glad you are now ready to reason together with me concerning us. (Isaiah 1:18) Rev.12:4 may indicate a Luciferian rebellion involving a third of the Angels of Heaven. 1Peter 1:18-22 may be speaking of an interaction with rebellious Spirits by Jesus Christ. What if we were all with God in Spirit form before we were born here as our Human experience? (John 15:27) What if we all agreed to: let's call it “A mind Sweep” to erase our Pre-existence memories. (Psalm 22:17) This would allow all to see who will follow God and who will follow Lucifer/Satan? (Hebrews 2:3) Have you ever considered that this may in fact be what Life is all about? (2Corinthians 6:2)   God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Revelation 12:4 does indicate Lucifer's rebellion against God.  

I Peter 1:18 does not speak of Jesus Christ being in existence at the time of the rebellion.  Verse 20 speaks of Jesus Christ being foreordained or more precisely, foreknown before the foundation of this world.  And it speaks that he was made manifest in these last times for you.  God clearly foreknew him, but he was not in existence until he was conceived and born.  

Psalm 22:17 does not speak of preexistence at all, it is prophetical of future events.  Specifically,a partial description of the torture and abuse Jesus Christ would endure for our sakes.

You might want to read II Peter 1:20,21.   We are not to let our minds loose on the scripture.  We are to study and work the scripture for what it says.  We are not to let our imaginations run wild when we study scripture.

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (barley @ July 03 2010,11:49)

I Peter 1:18 does not speak of Jesus Christ being in existence at the time of the rebellion.  Verse 20 speaks of Jesus Christ being foreordained or more precisely, foreknown before the foundation of this world.  And it speaks that he was made manifest in these last times for you.  God clearly foreknew him, but he was not in existence until he was conceived and born.   Psalm 22:17 does not speak of preexistence at all, it is prophetical of future events.  Specifically,a partial description of the torture and abuse Jesus Christ would endure for our sakes. You might want to read II Peter 1:20,21.   We are not to let our minds loose on the scripture.  We are to study and work the scripture for what it says.  We are not to let our imaginations run wild when we study scripture.

barley…………..You have it (exactly) right brother. Jesus did not preexist as any kind of Being until He was born on earth. He existed in the Plan and WILL of GOD ONLY UNTIL HIS BERTH HERE ON EARTH. He is the (FIRST) from mankind to be born into the Kingdom of GOD. You have it right Brother. IMO

peace and love to you and yours………………….gene

[Is 1:18]

Quote (barley @ July 02 2010,12:26)

I do not in the general scheme of the scriptures, have any reason to conclude that either you or I or Jeremiah or Jesus Christ existed before we were born.   God, having foreknowledge would have know about us before our conceptions and births, even as far back as “before the foundations of the world”.

I don't think your “foreknowledge” theory accounts for scriptures like John 1:1-4, 3:13, 6:38, 6:62, 16:28 & 17:5; 1 Cor 8:6, 10:14; Col 1:16; Phil 2:5-8; Heb 1:10 & 2:9; 1 John 1:2, Rev 22:16.

In fact, I think they make a mockery of it.

[karmarie]

Hi barley.

As Is 1:18 says, your avoiding alot of scripture. Your such a good writer though.

I agree with the tv part, whats tv anyway? I dont know. I hardly watch it either.

[GeneBalthrop]

Isa 1:18…………..Not one scripture say “JESUS PREEXISTED HIS BERTH ON EARTH AS ANY KIND OF BEING” Right? Why have you left out of your list a direct related scripture 2 Peter 1:20-21. Does that throw a damper into you theories of preexistence.? And don't you think John knew how to spell Jesus' name and would just simply written it in John 1:1 if that is what he intended it to mean. IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………………………..gene

[terraricca]

Quote (barley @ July 03 2010,11:49)

Quote (Ed J @ July 02 2010,13:09) Quote (barley @ July 02 2010,12:26) Why would believers preexist?   Why bother with sending them down to earth to live if we were already with God before?  What about unbelievers?  Why send them down to earth to live if they were already with God before?  What is this another test from God?   If they were unbelievers before, why would they change now?  Maybe someone says, so JC could save them?  If we already were alive with God and Jesus Christ before, why couldn't God and JC save the unbelievers without a heaven and an earth?   See, more problems, no solutions.   Hi Barley, Glad you are now ready to reason together with me concerning us. (Isaiah 1:18) Rev.12:4 may indicate a Luciferian rebellion involving a third of the Angels of Heaven. 1Peter 1:18-22 may be speaking of an interaction with rebellious Spirits by Jesus Christ. What if we were all with God in Spirit form before we were born here as our Human experience? (John 15:27) What if we all agreed to: let's call it “A mind Sweep” to erase our Pre-existence memories. (Psalm 22:17) This would allow all to see who will follow God and who will follow Lucifer/Satan? (Hebrews 2:3) Have you ever considered that this may in fact be what Life is all about? (2Corinthians 6:2)   God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Revelation 12:4 does indicate Lucifer's rebellion against God.   I Peter 1:18 does not speak of Jesus Christ being in existence at the time of the rebellion.  Verse 20 speaks of Jesus Christ being foreordained or more precisely, foreknown before the foundation of this world.  And it speaks that he was made manifest in these last times for you.  God clearly foreknew him, but he was not in existence until he was conceived and born.   Psalm 22:17 does not speak of preexistence at all, it is prophetical of future events.  Specifically,a partial description of the torture and abuse Jesus Christ would endure for our sakes. You might want to read II Peter 1:20,21.   We are not to let our minds loose on the scripture.  We are to study and work the scripture for what it says.  We are not to let our imaginations run wild when we study scripture.

hi

Verse 20 speaks of Jesus Christ being foreordained or more precisely, foreknown before the foundation of this world.

I GOT ONE QUESTION TO YOU OR ANYONE;HOW DID PETER LEARN ABOUT THAT INFORMATION??

Pierre

[barley]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ July 03 2010,15:43)

Quote (barley @ July 02 2010,12:26) I do not in the general scheme of the scriptures, have any reason to conclude that either you or I or Jeremiah or Jesus Christ existed before we were born.   God, having foreknowledge would have know about us before our conceptions and births, even as far back as “before the foundations of the world”.   I don't think your “foreknowledge” theory accounts for scriptures like John 1:1-4, 3:13, 6:38, 6:62, 16:28 & 17:5; 1 Cor 8:6, 10:14; Col 1:16; Phil 2:5-8; Heb 1:10 & 2:9; 1 John 1:2, Rev 22:16. In fact, I think they make a mockery of it.

Keep thinking.   God's word is not subject to what you think.  We are to let this mind be in you, which was in Christ Jesus.  We can handle thinking the thoughts of Christ, but God's ways are higher than our thoughts, etc.

Mock on.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (barley @ July 04 2010,07:32)

Keep thinking.   God's word is not subject to what you think.  We are to let this mind be in you, which was in Christ Jesus.  We can handle thinking the thoughts of Christ, but God's ways are higher than our thoughts, etc. Mock on.

Equivocation.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ July 04 2010,01:47)

Isa 1:18…………..Not one scripture say “JESUS PREEXISTED HIS BERTH ON EARTH AS ANY KIND OF BEING”

That's right, Jesus did not preexist his “berth”. He's not a ship Gene….

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