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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 21 2014,06:36) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 20 2014,11:33) 1. All I am saying is Jesus had the qualities of the word after the word was made flesh. 2. Remember that was is a past tense form of “be” and among other things it is “used to describe the qualities of a person or thing'.
1. No, no, no, Kerwin! Not just “the Word was made flesh”! It is, The Word was made flesh AND dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son.How does that last part fit into your theory that a flesh human being merely partook in some of the qualities of a literal utterance from God's mouth?
2. I don't know what this even means.
1) It doesn't change anything as Jesus dwelt among the Eleven after the word was made flesh and he had a glory as of the glory of the only begotten.2) I am not sure what you are not getting as I am repeated what a dictionary told me about the word was. I believe you understand the definition so it must be something else you fail to understand.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 20 2014,23:07) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 21 2014,06:36) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 20 2014,11:33) 1. All I am saying is Jesus had the qualities of the word after the word was made flesh.
1. No, no, no, Kerwin! Not just “the Word was made flesh”! It is, The Word was made flesh AND dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son.How does that last part fit into your theory that a flesh human being merely partook in some of the qualities of a literal utterance from God's mouth?
1) It doesn't change anything as Jesus dwelt among the Eleven after the word was made flesh and he had a glory as of the glory of the only begotten.
Actually, it changes EVERYTHING, Kerwin. Because if it was JESUS who dwelt on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son, then the Word LITERALLY BECAME “Jesus”.Otherwise, YOU'RE saying that ATTRIBUTES OF THE WORD are what dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son – not “Jesus”.
You're imagining that John said, “A regular old flesh being took on attributes of the Word, and then THAT FLESH PERSON THEY CAME TO BE IN dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son.”
But John doesn't add a different subject in verse 14. He doesn't start talking about “the Word”, and then switch to talking about the flesh being the attributes of the Word came to be in. Instead, the entire statement is about one subject: The Word.
So it was “the Word” who became flesh. And it was “the Word” who dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son.
It was also “the Word” of whom John the Baptist spoke these words, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”.
It was also “the Word” through whom grace and truth came to us.
It is not until verse 17 that John, STILL speaking about the SAME subject, switches from calling that subject “the Word”, and starts calling him “Jesus Christ”.
Get it, Kerwin? John speaks about the same exact subject from verse 1 all the way through verse 18. Up until verse 17, he identifies this subject only as “the Word”. Then, in verse 17, he begins to identify the SAME EXACT subject he has been talking about all along as “Jesus Christ”.
At any rate, your theory that a flesh being took on attributes of a literal utterance from God doesn't fit – UNLESS the attributes of this utterance are literally what dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten Son.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 20 2014,23:07) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 21 2014,06:36) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 20 2014,11:33) 2. Remember that was is a past tense form of “be” and among other things it is “used to describe the qualities of a person or thing'.
2. I don't know what this even means.
2) I am not sure what you are not getting as I am repeated what a dictionary told me about the word was. I believe you understand the definition so it must be something else you fail to understand.
I understand that “was” is the past tense form of “is”. And that “is” is basically the verb “to be”. So in a way, “was” is the past tense form of “to be”.I just don't understand what you are applying these things to.
Are you talking about 1:14? Are you equating the phrase “was MADE” with the singular word “was”?
See? I don't know what you're saying.
Likewise, I'm still waiting for you to tell me where the word “hos” is in John 1:14.
Mike,
In this case I am speaking of the clause “the word was made flesh”. The word was is a past tense of the word be and among a few other meaning can mean the qualities of a thing. So the clause is speaking of the qualities of a thing that were in the past made to be flesh so that the word is now the quality flesh. The word has a multitude of instances so it just one instance of God's word that is flesh. That is solid ground.
In this case you can equate flesh with Jesus Christ but that is not always the case. I then flip the order of words so that the Jesus Christ is the word but I do not believe that can always be done either but it works with the context just like equating flesh to Jesus Christ did.
So by the time the clause “and dwelt among us” occurs that instance of the word has the quality of flesh, Jesus is the word. The same is true of the clause “full of grace and truth” and the words “grace and truth” are mentioned in verse 17 linking the word is flesh to Jesus.
Mike,
The word hos is a Koine Greek word and has an accent mark over the o. It is translated “as” in many English versions.
John 1:14
American Standard Version (ASV)14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 22 2014,13:07) The word was is a past tense of the word be and among a few other meaning can mean the qualities of a thing.
That post was a bunch of mind-numbing mish-mash that doesn't make sense to me.Let's start with the part in the quote box above. The phrase isn't “the Word WAS flesh”. The phrase is “the Word WAS MADE, or BECAME flesh”
So show me how “was MADE” has “qualities of a thing” as its meaning.
Give me an example, so I know what you're talking about.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 22 2014,13:07) ……then flip the order of words so that the Jesus Christ is the word……..
What?
Why? Why are you “flipping the order of the words” John wrote?
You need to make sense of the statement AS John wrote it. You can't just go “flipping words” to make things come out the way you WANT them to come out.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 22 2014,13:07) So by the time the clause “and dwelt among us” occurs that instance of the word has the quality of flesh, Jesus is the word. The same is true of the clause “full of grace and truth” and the words “grace and truth” are mentioned in verse 17 linking the word is flesh to Jesus.
What?Are you saying that by the time you're done “flipping words” and using a particular meaning of “was” – when the phrase was “was MADE” – Jesus ends up “being the Word”?
So instead of the Word becoming flesh, like the words John wrote say, you've engineered a scenario, by flipping words and doing all other kinds of nonsense, where the flesh became the Word?
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 22 2014,13:15) Mike, The word hos is a Koine Greek word and has an accent mark over the o. It is translated “as” in many English versions.
John 1:14
American Standard Version (ASV)14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.
Okay. We've located the word “hōs”.Now which part of John's words would you like to twist with that word “hōs”?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 24 2014,00:26) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 22 2014,13:07) The word was is a past tense of the word be and among a few other meaning can mean the qualities of a thing.
That post was a bunch of mind-numbing mish-mash that doesn't make sense to me.Let's start with the part in the quote box above. The phrase isn't “the Word WAS flesh”. The phrase is “the Word WAS MADE, or BECAME flesh”
So show me how “was MADE” has “qualities of a thing” as its meaning.
Give me an example, so I know what you're talking about.
Mike,I am showing my work, so please do not let it confuse you.
Technically both became and was made are both wrong as English has no middle voice. Any translation to English is going to be sloppy. In classical Greek the middles often is reflective such as in the statement John cleans himself. So according to that the Word is performing an action on itself. So a better translation would probably be the word made itself flesh. I have seen no translation that does that and I see no reason the bias of translators would oppose it so I am going that appearances are deceptive and the debate between “was made” and “became” is the only possible pertinent debate until further evidence comes up.
I have no idea how to resolve that debate but I do know the “be” in because is just the base form of the word “was” and “came” is arrived. The difference has an insignificant effect on our conversation. In short it is a red herring.
The forms of “be” have only three definitions and adding any word to the sentence does not change that.
1) She became dressed in red tells us the subject gains the quantity of being dressed in red.
2) He became drunk tells us that the subject gains the quantity of drunk.
3) The Sea became calm tells us that the sea gained the quantity of calm.The only transformation that is present in these three examples is the addition of a quantity and the subtraction of any quantities that can not coexist with the new quantity, i.e. She is no longer dressed in blue.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 24 2014,00:33) Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 22 2014,13:15) Mike, The word hos is a Koine Greek word and has an accent mark over the o. It is translated “as” in many English versions.
John 1:14
American Standard Version (ASV)14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.
Okay. We've located the word “hōs”.Now which part of John's words would you like to twist with that word “hōs”?
Mike,As is a comparative word and it is comparing the glory of the word that is flesh to the glory of the only begotten of God. It, at the least, hinds there are two parties being compared to one another.
Over ten years ;and still quibbling about the Word?
Have you not woken up yet? And start asking yourselves the questions?
WHY IS IT SO?
WHERE LIES THE PROBLEM?
COULD IT BE THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS NOT LEADING US?
BUT WHY NOT?
WE WORKED VERY HARD;BUT STILL NO FRUITS;NOT EVEN A FLOWER.
COULD IT BE THE SOIL? MAY BE IT NEEDS SOME WATER.Yes the soil needs to be WORKED ON and WATERED; or
the tree will dry up and die.wakeup.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 26 2014,00:16) Wakeup, The reason is not that hard to figure out.
Kerwin.And that reason is?
Remember it only took Jesus 3/half years to teach all things.wakeup.
Hi,
Jesus was working with ploughed ground.John had been there preparing the way with his baptism of repentance
jer 4.3
lk 7.30Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 26 2014,04:32) Hi,
Jesus was working with ploughed ground.John had been there preparing the way with his baptism of repentance
jer 4.3
lk 7.30
So you had no one to prepare your way?
And that's the reason why it takes that long to learn?
And still learning,blown by the wind of doctrine?wakeup.
Hi,
Lk 7
29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
Hi,
jer 4
3 For thus saith the Lord to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns.Lk3
John the BaptistAnd he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
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