The Way

[kerwin]

Not3in1(Mandy) wrote:

Quote

Hi Kerwin, Not picky, just trying to point out to Nick that Jesus indeed was given holy spirit as a birth-right, not at the Jordan through baptism like everyone else. Of course Jesus was also a faithful servant.  But when Jesus was compared to the most faithful servant over God's house (Moses), he was given more honor as a Son over God's house.  His birth status over ranked any servant hood, in other words.   Good to hear from you! Love, Mandy

Overall what you sounds good though I am not sure that “birth rite” is the correct argument.   I happen to believe that Jesus received the spirit of Sonship because of his perfect faith though like you I believe it happened by the time he was born.  It is that faith I seek to emulate and by the power of God I can and will.

I have not had much to say of late but I try to listen in from time to time.

[kerwin]

Worshipping Jesus wrote:

Quote

If Jesus is just your brother and serves the Father as you do, then why serve Jesus and give him unreserved devotion like you would to the Father?

Scripture states more than one time that Jesus is the brother of those who believe.  He is also out father as it is through him that we can come to know God as God is.

Worshipping Jesus wrote:

Quote

Why not just serve the Father?

Why did the people of King David’s time serve David and not just serve the Father?

I believe that scripture attests that a time will come when Jesus will step down from his throne.   Since that is the case who will those that believe then be serving?

I cannot remember where it is but perhaps someone else will volunteer the information/

[Jesus name follower of Christ]

If i get u right Jesus had the spirit of sonship? wasn't He the son?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (kerwin @ July 20 2009,13:02)

Worshipping Jesus wrote: Quote If Jesus is just your brother and serves the Father as you do, then why serve Jesus and give him unreserved devotion like you would to the Father? Scripture states more than one time that Jesus is the brother of those who believe.  He is also out father as it is through him that we can come to know God as God is. Worshipping Jesus wrote: Quote Why not just serve the Father? Why did the people of King David’s time serve David and not just serve the Father? I believe that scripture attests that a time will come when Jesus will step down from his throne.   Since that is the case who will those that believe then be serving? I cannot remember where it is but perhaps someone else will volunteer the information/

Hi Kerwin

Obviously you are not following along with the conversation for I was not indicating that Jesus could not be considered a brother. He also is considered our husband and a Father, but that has nothing to do with the fact that he is not just a mere man like we are.

Please read my post and see that I am talking about something more than just servitude, I am talking about unreserved devotion as a slave to his master (owner), and only God can make that claim.

That kind of devotion to any other for the Monotheistic Hebrews would be considered Idolatry!

Yet Jesus makes this demand on his followers. (Mark 8:34, 35)

Blessings WJ

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 20 2009,11:03)

Quote (Lightenup @ July 20 2009,02:25) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 20 2009,01:59) Quote (Lightenup @ July 20 2009,01:43) Hi Keith, Jesus never goes against His Father's will and therefore if we obey all that Jesus tells us we also line up with His Father's will perfectly.  Jesus never goes against His Father's will.  Therefore, we have no problem getting our direction from Jesus or His Father, either way it will be the same direction. IMO Blessings, Kathi Hi Kathi But we are not just talking about following the Fathers will as a man would follow the teachings of the Father from a teacher! We are talking about unreserved devotion, commitment, and abondonment to another as a slave to his master (owner), and even to die for them! Jesus himself placed this demand on his followers! That is reserved for God only! WJ Hi Keith, I hope to give unreserved devotion to the Father and to His Son. I hope to give commitment and abandonment as a slave to his master to the Father and to the Son. I hope to be willing to die for either of them. The reason…because I believe that is the will of the Father.  And, if it is the will of the Father, it is also the will of the Son.  They are in agreement.  If I follow the Son, I also follow the Father and visa versa. Kathi Hi Kathi It is not the will of the Father to give such unreserved devotion to any but “The Only True God“! To do so is idolatry! IMO WJ

Keith,
But it IS His will that we honor the Son as we honor the Father. You have said that many times. Read here:

John 5:22-23
22 “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,
23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father.
NASU

Therefore complete and utter devotion to both is not idolatry of the Son because it is the will of the Most High God. We follow the Most High God and because of that devotion we give the Son the same honor by following Him also. They both lead to the Most High God's will. To be devoted to the Son to death will give glory to the Most High God not take away glory from the Most High God. If it were idolatry then that kind of devotion would take away glory from the Most High God BUT IT ISN'T! The Father is glorified by our devotion to His Son. The Father is glorified by our worship of His Son. NO ONE CAN BE DEVOTED TO THE SON WITHOUT ALSO BEING DEVOTED TO HIS FATHER! The Son always exalts the Father. The Father has exalted the Son. We exalt both and the Father is pleased.

Kathi

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 20 2009,13:46)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 20 2009,11:03) Quote (Lightenup @ July 20 2009,02:25) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 20 2009,01:59) Quote (Lightenup @ July 20 2009,01:43) Hi Keith, Jesus never goes against His Father's will and therefore if we obey all that Jesus tells us we also line up with His Father's will perfectly.  Jesus never goes against His Father's will.  Therefore, we have no problem getting our direction from Jesus or His Father, either way it will be the same direction. IMO Blessings, Kathi Hi Kathi But we are not just talking about following the Fathers will as a man would follow the teachings of the Father from a teacher! We are talking about unreserved devotion, commitment, and abondonment to another as a slave to his master (owner), and even to die for them! Jesus himself placed this demand on his followers! That is reserved for God only! WJ Hi Keith, I hope to give unreserved devotion to the Father and to His Son. I hope to give commitment and abandonment as a slave to his master to the Father and to the Son. I hope to be willing to die for either of them. The reason…because I believe that is the will of the Father.  And, if it is the will of the Father, it is also the will of the Son.  They are in agreement.  If I follow the Son, I also follow the Father and visa versa. Kathi Hi Kathi It is not the will of the Father to give such unreserved devotion to any but “The Only True God“! To do so is idolatry! IMO WJ Keith, But it IS His will that we honor the Son as we honor the Father.  You have said that many times. Read here: John 5:22-23 22 “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. NASU Therefore complete and utter devotion to both is not idolatry of the Son because it is the will of the Most High God.  We follow the Most High God and because of that devotion we give the Son the same honor by following Him also.  They both lead to the Most High God's will.  To be devoted to the Son to death will give glory to the Most High God not take away glory from the Most High God.  If it were idolatry then that kind of devotion would take away glory from the Most High God BUT IT ISN'T!  The Father is glorified by our devotion to His Son.  The Father is glorified by our worship of His Son.  NO ONE CAN BE DEVOTED TO THE SON WITHOUT ALSO BEING DEVOTED TO HIS FATHER!  The Son always exalts the Father.  The Father has exalted the Son.  We exalt both and the Father is pleased. Kathi

Kathi

You are missing the point.

Hebrew Monotheism demands this kind of devotion to God only!

You are right, we are to give this devotion to the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit, but that is because they are “The One True God, and not because the Father commands us to worship and give our lives in total surrender to another god!

He would be violating his own word when he says…

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, “Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Math 4:10

And…

Jesus replied, “The most important commandment is this: `Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is the one and only Lord. And you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength; Mark 12:29, 30.

Yet Jesus claimed that he was their Master and Lord.

He also claims that you cannot serve 2 masters.

God is One. The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is our Great God and Saviour!

WJ

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 20 2009,14:07)

Quote (Lightenup @ July 20 2009,13:46) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 20 2009,11:03) Quote (Lightenup @ July 20 2009,02:25) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 20 2009,01:59) Quote (Lightenup @ July 20 2009,01:43) Hi Keith, Jesus never goes against His Father's will and therefore if we obey all that Jesus tells us we also line up with His Father's will perfectly.  Jesus never goes against His Father's will.  Therefore, we have no problem getting our direction from Jesus or His Father, either way it will be the same direction. IMO Blessings, Kathi Hi Kathi But we are not just talking about following the Fathers will as a man would follow the teachings of the Father from a teacher! We are talking about unreserved devotion, commitment, and abondonment to another as a slave to his master (owner), and even to die for them! Jesus himself placed this demand on his followers! That is reserved for God only! WJ Hi Keith, I hope to give unreserved devotion to the Father and to His Son. I hope to give commitment and abandonment as a slave to his master to the Father and to the Son. I hope to be willing to die for either of them. The reason…because I believe that is the will of the Father.  And, if it is the will of the Father, it is also the will of the Son.  They are in agreement.  If I follow the Son, I also follow the Father and visa versa. Kathi Hi Kathi It is not the will of the Father to give such unreserved devotion to any but “The Only True God“! To do so is idolatry! IMO WJ Keith, But it IS His will that we honor the Son as we honor the Father.  You have said that many times. Read here: John 5:22-23 22 “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. NASU Therefore complete and utter devotion to both is not idolatry of the Son because it is the will of the Most High God.  We follow the Most High God and because of that devotion we give the Son the same honor by following Him also.  They both lead to the Most High God's will.  To be devoted to the Son to death will give glory to the Most High God not take away glory from the Most High God.  If it were idolatry then that kind of devotion would take away glory from the Most High God BUT IT ISN'T!  The Father is glorified by our devotion to His Son.  The Father is glorified by our worship of His Son.  NO ONE CAN BE DEVOTED TO THE SON WITHOUT ALSO BEING DEVOTED TO HIS FATHER!  The Son always exalts the Father.  The Father has exalted the Son.  We exalt both and the Father is pleased. Kathi Kathi You are missing the point. Hebrew Monotheism demands this kind of devotion to God only! You are right, we are to give this devotion to the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit, but that is because they are “The One True God, and not because the Father commands us to worship and give our lives in total surrender to another god! He would be violating his own word when he says… Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, “Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Math 4:10 And… Jesus replied, “The most important commandment is this: `Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is the one and only Lord. And you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength; Mark 12:29, 30. Yet Jesus claimed that he was their Master and Lord. He also claims that you cannot serve 2 masters. God is One. The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. Jesus is our Great God and Saviour! WJ

Keith,
We have two different perspectives. Maybe Hebrew monotheism is an idol that many bow down to which causes them to insist that three in one doctrine. I think that we should let the Most High God decide if His Son is also to be worshipped or not, not Hebrew monotheism thought. IMO If the Most High God decrees it…so it is. If the Most High God has exalted His Son then so should we. The Most High God would not have exalted His Son to receive worship if He would consider it idolatry if we worship the very one He exalted to receive worship. We have the Most High God's blessing to be devoted to His faithful Son. The Son will always lead us to His Father.

Kathi

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 20 2009,14:29)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 20 2009,14:07) Quote (Lightenup @ July 20 2009,13:46) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 20 2009,11:03) Quote (Lightenup @ July 20 2009,02:25) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 20 2009,01:59) Quote (Lightenup @ July 20 2009,01:43) Hi Keith, Jesus never goes against His Father's will and therefore if we obey all that Jesus tells us we also line up with His Father's will perfectly.  Jesus never goes against His Father's will.  Therefore, we have no problem getting our direction from Jesus or His Father, either way it will be the same direction. IMO Blessings, Kathi Hi Kathi But we are not just talking about following the Fathers will as a man would follow the teachings of the Father from a teacher! We are talking about unreserved devotion, commitment, and abondonment to another as a slave to his master (owner), and even to die for them! Jesus himself placed this demand on his followers! That is reserved for God only! WJ Hi Keith, I hope to give unreserved devotion to the Father and to His Son. I hope to give commitment and abandonment as a slave to his master to the Father and to the Son. I hope to be willing to die for either of them. The reason…because I believe that is the will of the Father.  And, if it is the will of the Father, it is also the will of the Son.  They are in agreement.  If I follow the Son, I also follow the Father and visa versa. Kathi Hi Kathi It is not the will of the Father to give such unreserved devotion to any but “The Only True God“! To do so is idolatry! IMO WJ Keith, But it IS His will that we honor the Son as we honor the Father.  You have said that many times. Read here: John 5:22-23 22 “For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. NASU Therefore complete and utter devotion to both is not idolatry of the Son because it is the will of the Most High God.  We follow the Most High God and because of that devotion we give the Son the same honor by following Him also.  They both lead to the Most High God's will.  To be devoted to the Son to death will give glory to the Most High God not take away glory from the Most High God.  If it were idolatry then that kind of devotion would take away glory from the Most High God BUT IT ISN'T!  The Father is glorified by our devotion to His Son.  The Father is glorified by our worship of His Son.  NO ONE CAN BE DEVOTED TO THE SON WITHOUT ALSO BEING DEVOTED TO HIS FATHER!  The Son always exalts the Father.  The Father has exalted the Son.  We exalt both and the Father is pleased. Kathi Kathi You are missing the point. Hebrew Monotheism demands this kind of devotion to God only! You are right, we are to give this devotion to the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit, but that is because they are “The One True God, and not because the Father commands us to worship and give our lives in total surrender to another god! He would be violating his own word when he says… Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, “Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Math 4:10 And… Jesus replied, “The most important commandment is this: `Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is the one and only Lord. And you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength; Mark 12:29, 30. Yet Jesus claimed that he was their Master and Lord. He also claims that you cannot serve 2 masters. God is One. The Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. Jesus is our Great God and Saviour! WJ Keith, We have two different perspectives.  Maybe Hebrew monotheism is an idol that many bow down to which causes them to insist that three in one doctrine.  I think that we should let the Most High God decide if His Son is also to be worshipped or not, not Hebrew monotheism thought. IMO  If the Most High God decrees it…so it is.  If the Most High God has exalted His Son then so should we.  The Most High God would not have exalted His Son to receive worship if He would consider it idolatry if we worship the very one He exalted to receive worship.  We have the Most High God's blessing to be devoted to His faithful Son.  The Son will always lead us to His Father. Kathi

Hi Kathi

Quote (Lightenup @ July 20 2009,14:29)

[The Most High God would not have exalted His Son to receive worship if He would consider it idolatry if we worship the very one He exalted to receive worship.

Then the Father contradicts his own words when he says…

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, “Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Math 4:10

And…

Jesus replied, “The most important commandment is this: `Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is the one and only Lord. And you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength; Mark 12:29, 30.

You cannot serve 2 Gods Kathi! A big one and a smaller one!

God is One, the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit!

Blessings WJ

[Lightenup]

Keith,
Do you serve your wife? Your congregation? If yes, then are you violating those commandments? Do you see that we can serve others but the reason we serve others is the key. If we serve others because of the Most High God then we are glorifying Him. If we serve others instead of the Most High God then we break the commandment. Don't you see the difference? If we bow down to Jesus because of the Most High God then we are glorifying the Most High God who has given us His Son to bow down to. If we bow down to Jesus as the Most High God then we break the commandment, IMO.

Kathi
I'm being called to go to the beach…later Keith! Have a good one.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ July 20 2009,14:46)

Keith, Do you serve your wife? Your congregation? If yes, then are you violating those commandments?  Do you see that we can serve others but the reason we serve others is the key. If we serve others because of the Most High God then we are glorifying Him.  If we serve others instead of the Most High God then we break the commandment.  Don't you see the difference?  If we bow down to Jesus because of the Most High God then we are glorifying the Most High God who has given us His Son to bow down to.  If we bow down to Jesus as the Most High God then we break the commandment, IMO. Kathi I'm being called to go to the beach…later Keith!  Have a good one.

Hi Kathi

Again, you are missing the point. I am not just talking about servitude like that of an employer to their boss or to one another or to a husband or wife.

And that is not what the Father is saying when he says…

Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, “Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Math 4:10

And…

Jesus replied, “The most important commandment is this: `Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is the one and only Lord. And you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength; Mark 12:29, 30.

We are talking about unreserved devotion as a slave to a master (owner) even to death.

This was my original post and point.

Be ye therefore “followers of God“, as dear children; Eph 5:1

'Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; Titus 1:1

“James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. James 1:1

Yet the Apostles also say that they are “Bond slaves” (doulos) of Christ.

Peter, James and Paul claims they are (doulos) of Christ.

Paul almost invariably starts all of his writings with this claim!

The Greek word “Strong's G1401 – doulos” means…

1) a slave, bondman, man of servile condition

a) a slave

b) metaph., one who gives himself up to another's will those whose service is used by Christ in extending and advancing his cause among men

c) devoted to another to the disregard of one's own interests

2) a servant, attendant

While it can be applied to men serving men, yet when applied to Jesus it must be understood as a complete and total abandonment, devotion and commitment without reservation as one who is the property of another.

In other words, the relationship of a Master and his slave!

For truly scriptures tell us that we have only “one Master”…

For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny “our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ“. Jude 1:4

Jesus even said himself…

Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “If anyone would come after me, “he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me“. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but “whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it“. Mark 8:34-35

Jesus is making a demand of total unreserved commitment to him even to death. This means that men were to be martyrs for him.

Anti-trinitarians do not put all the pieces together, for if they did then they would know that only “God” could make such claims and demands on men!

Jesus claims ownership of all that are his!

This kind of devotion to any being other than God to a  Monotheistic Hebrews perspective would be considered Idolatry! And no Hebrew would ever demand a Hebrew to serve him in that fashion!

Now I can hear the unbelievers saying…

But God gave Jesus this authority and power!

But the kind of devotion that we are to give to the Son is equal to the devotion we would give to the Father.

The Father shares this devotion with Jesus as he does his Glory, because Jesus is God, one with the Father and the Spirit!

Paul says he is a prisoner of Jesus Christ! That kind of unreserved devotion even to death is reserved for God only!

Jesus said…

“No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other… Luke 16:13

No other but God is to recieve this kind of worship and devotion!

Have a good trip to the beach!

Blessings WJ

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
If Jesus told the Jews to serve God alone why do you correct him and say we should also worship him?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 20 2009,14:58)

Hi WJ, If Jesus told the Jews to serve God alone why do you correct him and say we should also worship him?

NH

Why do you serve Jesus then?

The contradiction is with you NH!

WJ

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 21 2009,06:58)

Hi WJ, If Jesus told the Jews to serve God alone why do you correct him and say we should also worship him?

This is what we have been trying to say Nick. You cannot worship God without worshiping Jesus.

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi WJ,
Jesus was led by the Spirit of God.[lk4]
We too are to be led by the Spirit[gal5]

You need to accept the Lordship of the vine if you are to serve the Gardener.

[NickHassan]

Quote (thethinker @ July 21 2009,07:44)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 21 2009,06:58) Hi WJ, If Jesus told the Jews to serve God alone why do you correct him and say we should also worship him? This is what we have been trying to say Nick. You cannot worship God without worshiping Jesus. thinker

Hi TT,
Why not listen to Jesus who told men to worship God, his Father, or do his words carry no weight for you?

[gsilva72]

Nick,

I guess the angels, Thomas, and most of Christianity are guilty of Idoltry. The angels worshipped Jesus.( Hebrews 1:6) and Thomas worshipped Jesus (John 20:28)

[NickHassan]

Hi GS,
God was in Him. He gave men the words of God Himself.
But that did not make him the God that was in him does it?

[NickHassan]

Hi GS,
It is good that you are questioning whether worship of the man Jesus is idolatry.
He told us true worshipers worship the Father in spirit and truth.[jn4]

So are you among them or going along with what tradition teaches?

[GeneBalthrop]

To all……….All who teach and preach Jesus as a GOD are turning Jesus into the MAN OF SIN and are committing IDOLATRY. You shall have (NO) other GODS besides ME, said the eternal Father the GOD of all creation, who Jesus worshiped and obeyed, and called Him FATHER, and when he left He said plainly i am going to my GOD and YOUR GOD , my FATHER and YOUR FATHER. No difference between us and Jesus. Come out of all the false teaching of the Trinity and the true Gospel will shine unto you. Do not practice the Idolatress teachings of the TRINITY. IMO

peace and love to you all……………………gene

[NickHassan]

G,
Turning him into??

[Author]

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