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Quote (Not3in1 @ June 25 2008,02:58) Quote (dirtyknections @ June 25 2008,02:43) Quote (Not3in1 @ June 24 2008,19:24) If Jesus couldn't have walked away from the cross………. his going to the cross was not a true sacrifice.
Just thinking out loud.
Mandy
John 3:16…THis was GOD's sacrifice…not Jesus
Yes, God was the giver of the sacrifice.Jesus was the sacrifice.
“For GOD loved the world”….Just like if someone kidnapped my child and wanted 100 grand as a ransom…
Whose sacrifice is it…the money or mine?
Lets compare…sin and death kidnapped mankind …and needed a ransom for mankinds return…GOD gave Jesus as a ransom sacrifice to get mankind back…so just like in my example before…I ask who's sacrifice is it really? ….
mine(GODs) or the money(Christ)
Adam,
I am trying to counter what DK is saying. He believes that God is the one who truly sacrificed and Jesus was merely the “thing” sacrificed (as he is now using “money” as a parallel example of Christ's sacrifice).
God was the giver of the sacrificial lamb in Jesus Christ. As a parent I am aware of what this would mean. However my point is that the child is the one sacrificing, that is giving up their lives. Other than watch the child suffer and giving up his child, what did GOD sacrifice that Jesus did not?
Quote (Not3in1 @ June 25 2008,04:26) Adam, I am trying to counter what DK is saying. He believes that God is the one who truly sacrificed and Jesus was merely the “thing” sacrificed (as he is now using “money” as a parallel example of Christ's sacrifice).
God was the giver of the sacrificial lamb in Jesus Christ. As a parent I am aware of what this would mean. However my point is that the child is the one sacrificing, that is giving up their lives. Other than watch the child suffer and giving up his child, what did GOD sacrifice that Jesus did not?
The bible says that the children belong to GOD..so they are not theirs to sacrifice..Our life is not ours anyway is waht I am trying to say..Jesus life while given by GOD is not truly his..and the same thing goes for us..
Genesis 9:4-6…. 4 “But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. 5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.
6 “Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man.Lev 17:10-14… 10 ” 'Any Israelite or any alien living among them who eats any blood—I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from his people. 11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life. 12 Therefore I say to the Israelites, “None of you may eat blood, nor may an alien living among you eat blood.”
13 ” 'Any Israelite or any alien living among you who hunts any animal or bird that may be eaten must drain out the blood and cover it with earth, 14 because the life of every creature is its blood. That is why I have said to the Israelites, “You must not eat the blood of any creature, because the life of every creature is its blood; anyone who eats it must be cut off.”
Psalm 127:3-5….3 Sons are a heritage from the LORD,
children a reward from him.4 Like arrows in the hands of a warrior
are sons born in one's youth.5 Blessed is the man
whose quiver is full of them.
They will not be put to shame
when they contend with their enemies in the gate.Deuteronomy 30:20…20 and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Deuteronomy 32:39…39 “See now that I myself am He!
There is no god besides me.
I put to death and I bring to life,
I have wounded and I will heal,
and no one can deliver out of my hand.1 Samuel 2:6….6 “The LORD brings death and makes alive;
he brings down to the grave [a] and raises up.The fact that GOD owns the lives of everything is why we have the command on murder…Life is not ours to take
Quote (dirtyknections @ June 25 2008,05:25) Our life is not ours anyway is waht I am trying to say..Jesus life while given by GOD is not truly his..and the same thing goes for us..
Hi Bro,I think your line of reasoning is a bit off. God allowed Jesus to have life in himself. He was not merely a possesion of God, but he was a real person in his own right. He was a true, obedient Son.
His life was his to give-up through obedience to his Father. This is why Jesus was exhaulted to the position he now enjoys. This would be the sacrifice, that he gave his life.
I know you have a different bend on this and we will have to agree to disagree. I don't believe Jesus counted for nothing in all of this. He had a role to play just as Adam did.
Rev. 5
Worthy is the Lamb that was slain…..
(thanks to WJ for reminding me of this passage).God being supreme and perfect has no need to sacrifice and no one to sacrifice to other then himself, so the whole idea of God sacrificing anything seems questionable at best. Jesus however being a man even one in whom God's spirit may have dwelled is another matter. As an example of what humanity should and one day may be, he had to blaze the path. Part of the path is sacrifice, giving up something we perceive as having value for something more. It is part of every soul's progression and can not be proxied out to others. No one is going to do it for you, if a baby is ever going to learn to walk it must fall and cannot always be carried by others. The good news is that what we in our limited knowledge and perspective view as sacrificial, in a larger sense is not so. Giving up earthly treasure, even our physical bodies may in the sense of our true being, be of no greater importance then throwing away old clothes. We are all so much more then we appear and what we now think of the center of our being is but a role we play temporarily to learn and experience something new. Sacrifice is a way of training our individuality, showing that we can separate the temporary from the eternal, illusion from reality.
Quote (Cato @ June 25 2008,22:41) Part of the path is sacrifice, giving up something we perceive as having value for something more.
EXACTLY! I certainly couldn't have said it better!
Jesus' life had to be worth something here on earth. He had to of given up something of value in order for the sacrfice to have meant anything AT ALL!
If he knew he was just returning to glory that was enjoyed already by him, then giving up his earthly life would have meant nothing. No big deal. It would be like comparing hot dogs to steak.
Hi not3,
No risk?
Did he know the future then?
Only God knows the future and he is the son of that God.Nick,
We've had this conversation already just recently…..
My feeling is that no, there was no “risk” in Jesus giving up his earthly life. You never identified the “risk” that you thought existed? The only potential risk would be if God promised Jesus life after death and then decided to break his word (which Jesus knew would never happen).So you tell me what the risk was?
If lived with God in heaven prior to coming to this (by comparision) hell hole, and I knew I was on a mission and all I had to do was live for a while and then die and then I could go back to heaven WITH HONORS…………..who wouldn't do that joyfully? Who would say, “Sign me up for that deal, boss!”. Who would have a hard time giving up their lives here on earth for such an arrangement? No one!
Hi not3,
Without faith there is no knowledge of the future.
He had nothing but faith to go on.Like jumping off the temple but he did not do that because scripture forbade men from testing God.
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