The Value of the Sacrifice

[TimothyVI]

Hi Mrs.

on that site you do not need to download anything.
Just use it on line.

Tim

[Towshab]

Quote (TimothyVI @ Nov. 04 2007,05:34)

Quote Quote (Stu @ Nov. 04 2007,12:52) Tim And, why Luke 23:34 or Matthew 27:46? Stuart Hi stu, Actually Luke 23:34 is interesting to me for another reason than that which you suggest. It has always been comforting to think that Jesus asked God to forgive these wretches in spite of what they were doing.

'They' were not doing anything that were not supposed to be doing. Therein lies the biggest contradiction of the Christian faith.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

According to your bible, G-d sent his son to die. Why then blame the Romans or the Jewish people? They were only fulfilling G-d's will right? They had no power to stop it because he was sent to be sacrificed. Yet that did not stop Christians from being the most anti-semitic people in history. Christians want to blame the Jewish people for killing Jesus but according to your own bible G-d was responsible.

Sorry but my G-d would not do that. He abhorred human sacrifice.

Joh 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Many people see the Jews as the ones who delivered him to Pilate but look back to John 3:16. The Christian bible accuses G-d of sinning. And that god would be a sinner because he violated G-d's Tanakh by offering a human sacrifice.

Also what did Jesus say?

Joh 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

So people need to stop blaming the Jewish people. Blame Jesus and his father if you want to adhere to the Christian faith.

Quote

But if you read the Greek interlineary wording of that verse it really sounds like Jesus was emploring His Father to NOT forgive them. “Jesus said Father, pardon you to them not, for they have perceived what they are doing.” Luke 23:34 In other words. Father, forgive them not, for they know what they are doing. Tim

Forgive them not for what? Doing your god's will? I will not say he is my G-d because my G-d would not do that. G-d will not violate his own Torah.

[GeneBalthrop]

Towshab…..> You trying to be a Jew, and don't understand the right of the Kindsmen redeemer. God let Jesus as our Kindsmen redeem US, it was Jesus right under the law to do that. Jesus Sacrificed Hisself for us, God did not kill His Son, His Son Jesus layed down His own life, Because God said without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
And again the Soul (NOT FLESH) that sineth it shall (PARISH), not just die and come back to life again, but can perish. God does not go agfain His words. The only way we could be saved because we all have sinned was to be purchased back.

Jesus paid the price that it took to redeem Us, by purchasing us Back from sure death He is (OUR KINSMEN REBEEMER).

You trying to be a Jew should understand the right of Kinsmen redeemer. It in the Tora.

Shalom…….gene

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (TimothyVI @ Nov. 03 2007,23:54)

God knew that He was only lending His son for a short while, and then taking Him back. That seems to be no eternal sacrifice on the part of God.

Tim….> there is more then one then Jesus accomplished in His life on earth.
1….> He paid what it took to buy us back from death (kinsmen redeemer) that was the price tag for our sins, “For without the shedding of blood there is (NO) forgivness of Sin”. God said it pleased Him (IF) He would empty out His soul unto death, He didn't say He had to, did He?. Jesus know what it would take and did it Himself, by sacrificing Himself.

2….> He showed Us what it takes to Have a right relationship with God The Father. He poured out (HIS WILL) unto death. He still apears as a Slain Lamb before the throne of God. Jesus example is one of total submission to the Father.
And as a result He only does the Father (WILL), and that what the Father want's from us also. We need to learn to put our Wills to rest i.e. (Sabbath) and let God work in an through Us also like He does Jesus our Brother.

Peace to all seeking truth…………..gene

[Towshab]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 04 2007,11:28)

Towshab…..> You trying to be a Jew, and don't understand the right of the Kindsmen redeemer. God let Jesus as our Kindsmen redeem US, it was Jesus right under the law to do that. Jesus Sacrificed Hisself for us, God did not kill His Son, His Son Jesus layed down His own life, Because God said without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

Where does it say in the Jewish bible that there is no forgiveness of sin without blood? You only find that in your bible.

The story of the kinsman redeemer is found in Ruth. Did Boaz die to redeem?
Jeremiah 31:30 says that every one shall die for his own iniquity. Pay attention to that because that verse immediately precedes the promise of a new covenant which Christians think is theirs. So if they are willing to claim the new covenant promised in Jer 31 they must also be willing to accept that all will held responsible for their own iniquities. You can't just pick and choose.

Quote

And again the Soul (NOT FLESH) that sineth it shall (PARISH), not just die and come back to life again, but can perish. God does not go agfain His words. The only way we could be saved because we all have sinned was to be purchased back. Jesus paid the price that it took to redeem Us, by purchasing us Back from sure death He is (OUR KINSMEN REBEEMER).

Nice analogy but (a) Boaz did not sacrifice his life and (b) human sacrifice is against G-d's Torah.

Quote

You trying to be a Jew should understand the right of Kinsmen redeemer. It in the Tora. Shalom…….gene

Tanakh actually but its all good . I've seen some of your posts on here Gene. You at least believe Jesus was just a man. Hopefully you do not worship him either. I would not place unitarians and others like them in the same class as other Christians because most are not idol worshipers nor do they have a history of anti-semitism. That honor goes to the Catholic and Protestant denominations. Evangelicals are the new threat to the children of Israel. They're goal is elimination by conversion.

[942767]

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 05 2007,03:36)

Quote (TimothyVI @ Nov. 04 2007,05:34) Quote Quote (Stu @ Nov. 04 2007,12:52) Tim And, why Luke 23:34 or Matthew 27:46? Stuart Hi stu, Actually Luke 23:34 is interesting to me for another reason than that which you suggest. It has always been comforting to think that Jesus asked God to forgive these wretches in spite of what they were doing. 'They' were not doing anything that were not supposed to be doing. Therein lies the biggest contradiction of the Christian faith. Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. According to your bible, G-d sent his son to die. Why then blame the Romans or the Jewish people? They were only fulfilling G-d's will right? They had no power to stop it because he was sent to be sacrificed. Yet that did not stop Christians from being the most anti-semitic people in history. Christians want to blame the Jewish people for killing Jesus but according to your own bible G-d was responsible. Sorry but my G-d would not do that. He abhorred human sacrifice. Joh 19:11  Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin. Many people see the Jews as the ones who delivered him to Pilate but look back to John 3:16. The Christian bible accuses G-d of sinning. And that god would be a sinner because he violated G-d's Tanakh by offering a human sacrifice. Also what did Jesus say? Joh 15:13  Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. So people need to stop blaming the Jewish people. Blame Jesus and his father if you want to adhere to the Christian faith. Quote But if you read the Greek interlineary wording of that verse it really sounds like Jesus was emploring His Father to NOT forgive them. “Jesus said Father, pardon you to them not, for they have perceived what they are doing.” Luke 23:34 In other words. Father, forgive them not, for they know what they are doing. Tim Forgive them not for what? Doing your god's will? I will not say he is my G-d because my G-d would not do that. G-d will not violate his own Torah.

Hi Towshab:

In light of the comments that you make in this post what is you understanding of the following scriptures:

Quote

Genesis Chapter 22 א  וַיְהִי, אַחַר הַדְּבָרִים הָאֵלֶּה, וְהָאֱלֹהִים, נִסָּה אֶת-אַבְרָהָם; וַיֹּאמֶר אֵלָיו, אַבְרָהָם וַיֹּאמֶר הִנֵּנִי.  1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did prove Abraham, and said unto him: 'Abraham'; and he said: 'Here am I.'   ב  וַיֹּאמֶר קַח-נָא אֶת-בִּנְךָ אֶת-יְחִידְךָ אֲשֶׁר-אָהַבְתָּ, אֶת-יִצְחָק, וְלֶךְ-לְךָ, אֶל-אֶרֶץ הַמֹּרִיָּה; וְהַעֲלֵהוּ שָׁם, לְעֹלָה, עַל אַחַד הֶהָרִים, אֲשֶׁר אֹמַר אֵלֶיךָ.  2 And He said: 'Take now thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest, even Isaac, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt-offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.'   ג  וַיַּשְׁכֵּם אַבְרָהָם בַּבֹּקֶר, וַיַּחֲבֹשׁ אֶת-חֲמֹרוֹ, וַיִּקַּח אֶת-שְׁנֵי נְעָרָיו אִתּוֹ, וְאֵת יִצְחָק בְּנוֹ; וַיְבַקַּע, עֲצֵי עֹלָה, וַיָּקָם וַיֵּלֶךְ, אֶל-הַמָּקוֹם אֲשֶׁר-אָמַר-לוֹ הָאֱלֹהִים.  3 And Abraham rose early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son; and he cleaved the wood for the burnt-offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.   ד  בַּיּוֹם הַשְּׁלִישִׁי, וַיִּשָּׂא אַבְרָהָם אֶת-עֵינָיו וַיַּרְא אֶת-הַמָּקוֹם–מֵ&#1512 ;ָחֹק.  4 On the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.   ה  וַיֹּאמֶר אַבְרָהָם אֶל-נְעָרָיו, שְׁבוּ-לָכֶם פֹּה עִם-הַחֲמוֹר, וַאֲנִי וְהַנַּעַר, נֵלְכָה עַד-כֹּה; וְנִשְׁתַּחֲוֶה, וְנָשׁוּבָה אֲלֵיכֶם.  5 And Abraham said unto his young men: 'Abide ye here with the ass, and I and the lad will go yonder; and we will worship, and come back to you.'   ו  וַיִּקַּח אַבְרָהָם אֶת-עֲצֵי הָעֹלָה, וַיָּשֶׂם עַל-יִצְחָק בְּנוֹ, וַיִּקַּח בְּיָדוֹ, אֶת-הָאֵשׁ וְאֶת-הַמַּאֲכֶלֶת; וַיֵּלְכוּ שְׁנֵיהֶם, יַחְדָּו.  6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt-offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took in his hand the fire and the knife; and they went both of them together.   ז  וַיֹּאמֶר יִצְחָק אֶל-אַבְרָהָם אָבִיו, וַיֹּאמֶר אָבִי, וַיֹּאמֶר, הִנֶּנִּי בְנִי; וַיֹּאמֶר, הִנֵּה הָאֵשׁ וְהָעֵצִים, וְאַיֵּה הַשֶּׂה, לְעֹלָה.  7 And Isaac spoke unto Abraham his father, and said: 'My father.' And he said: 'Here am I, my son.' And he said: 'Behold the fire and the wood; but where is the lamb for a burnt-offering?'   ח  וַיֹּאמֶר, אַבְרָהָם, אֱלֹהִים יִרְאֶה-לּוֹ הַשֶּׂה לְעֹלָה, בְּנִי; וַיֵּלְכוּ שְׁנֵיהֶם, יַחְדָּו.  8 And Abraham said: 'God will provide Himself the lamb for a burnt-offering, my son.' So they went both of them together.   ט  וַיָּבֹאוּ, אֶל-הַמָּקוֹם אֲשֶׁר אָמַר-לוֹ הָאֱלֹהִים, וַיִּבֶן שָׁם אַבְרָהָם אֶת-הַמִּזְבֵּחַ, וַיַּעֲרֹךְ אֶת-הָעֵצִים; וַיַּעֲקֹד, אֶת-יִצְחָק בְּנוֹ, וַיָּשֶׂם אֹתוֹ עַל-הַמִּזְבֵּחַ, מִמַּעַל לָעֵצִים.  9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built the altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar, upon the wood.   י  וַיִּשְׁלַח אַבְרָהָם אֶת-יָדוֹ, וַיִּקַּח אֶת-הַמַּאֲכֶלֶת, לִשְׁחֹט, אֶת-בְּנוֹ.  10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.   יא  וַיִּקְרָא אֵלָיו מַלְאַךְ יְהוָה, מִן-הַשָּׁמַיִם, וַיֹּאמֶר, אַבְרָהָם אַבְרָהָם; וַיֹּאמֶר, הִנֵּנִי.  11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said: 'Abraham, Abraham.' And he said: 'Here am I.'   יב  וַיֹּאמֶר, אַל-תִּשְׁלַח יָדְךָ אֶל-הַנַּעַר, וְאַל-תַּעַשׂ לוֹ, מְאוּמָה:  כִּי עַתָּה יָדַעְתִּי, כִּי-יְרֵא אֱלֹהִים אַתָּה, וְלֹא חָשַׂכְתָּ אֶת-בִּנְךָ אֶת-יְחִידְךָ, מִמֶּנִּי.  12 And he said: 'Lay not thy hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him; for now I know that thou art a God-fearing man, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son, from Me.'   יג  וַיִּשָּׂא אַבְרָהָם אֶת-עֵינָיו, וַיַּרְא וְהִנֵּה-אַיִל, אַחַר, נֶאֱחַז בַּסְּבַךְ בְּקַרְנָיו; וַיֵּלֶךְ אַבְרָהָם וַיִּקַּח אֶת-הָאַיִל, וַיַּעֲלֵהוּ לְעֹלָה תַּחַת בְּנוֹ.  13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in the thicket by his horns. And Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt-offering in the stead of his son.   יד  וַיִּקְרָא אַבְרָהָם שֵׁם-הַמָּקוֹם הַהוּא, יְהוָה יִרְאֶה, אֲשֶׁר יֵאָמֵר הַיּוֹם, בְּהַר יְהוָה יֵרָאֶה.  14 And Abraham called the name of that place Adonai-jireh; as it is said to this day: 'In the mount where the LORD is seen.'   טו  וַיִּקְרָא מַלְאַךְ יְהוָה, אֶל-אַבְרָהָם, שֵׁנִית, מִן-הַשָּׁמָיִם.  15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham a second time out of heaven,   טז  וַיֹּאמֶר, בִּי נִשְׁבַּעְתִּי נְאֻם-יְהוָה:  כִּי, יַעַן אֲשֶׁר עָשִׂיתָ אֶת-הַדָּבָר הַזֶּה, וְלֹא חָשַׂכְתָּ, אֶת-בִּנְךָ אֶת-יְחִידֶךָ.  16 and said: 'By Myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son,   יז  כִּי-בָרֵךְ אֲבָרֶכְךָ, וְהַרְבָּה אַרְבֶּה אֶת-זַרְעֲךָ כְּכוֹכְבֵי הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְכַחוֹל, אֲשֶׁר עַל-שְׂפַת הַיָּם; וְיִרַשׁ זַרְעֲךָ, אֵת שַׁעַר אֹיְבָיו.  17 that in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the seashore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;   יח  וְהִתְבָּרְכוּ בְזַרְעֲךָ, כֹּל גּוֹיֵי הָאָרֶץ, עֵקֶב, אֲשֶׁר שָׁמַעְתָּ בְּקֹלִי.  18 and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast hearkened to My voice.'

God Bless

[Towshab]

942767,

I was wondering when someone would bring up Gen 22!

In the time of the development of the first book of the bible and beyond, many other religions had sprung up. As you can read throughout the Jewish scriptures many of them demanded human sacrifice. Thus the narrative of Gen 22 has two lessons in it. The first one that almost everyone gets is that Abraham (Abram) was totally dedicated to G-d because he did just as G-d commanded. Please note one important thing here: he did this BEFORE the supposed 'indwelling' of the Holy Spirit which goes to show you that faith in G-d does not require this as the Christian bible says.

The other lesson what few do not understand is that human sacrifices are indeed an abomination to G-d! That is why Isaac was not sacrificed but an animal took his place. Notice these verses:

Gen 22:10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
Gen 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

It was not like the knife was poised over Isaac. Abraham merely reached for the knife. So Issac was never in real danger. Yet YHVH saw the faith that Abraham had and stopped him.

By replacing the ram for Isaac G-d showed that human sacrifices belonged to the worship of other gods. This ideal was repeated often in the Tanakh whenever the children encountered the various pagan religions around them.

Randie

[942767]

Hi Towshab:

Abraham's faith was such that he knew that if he sacrificed Isaac that God was able to raise him from the dead because the blessings that God promised him were to come through Isaac.

But the following verse is very important because listen to what Abraham says:

Quote

וַיֹּאמֶר יִצְחָק אֶל-אַבְרָהָם אָבִיו, וַיֹּאמֶר אָבִי, וַיֹּאמֶר, הִנֶּנִּי בְנִי; וַיֹּאמֶר, הִנֵּה הָאֵשׁ וְהָעֵצִים, וְאַיֵּה הַשֶּׂה, לְעֹלָה.  7 And Isaac spoke unto Abraham his father, and said: 'My father.' And he said: 'Here am I, my son.' And he said: 'Behold the fire and the wood; but where is the lamb for a burnt-offering?'   ח  וַיֹּאמֶר, אַבְרָהָם, אֱלֹהִים יִרְאֶה-לּוֹ הַשֶּׂה לְעֹלָה, בְּנִי; וַיֵּלְכוּ שְׁנֵיהֶם, יַחְדָּו.  8 And Abraham said: 'God will provide Himself the lamb for a burnt-offering, my son.' So they went both of them together.

Abraham said that God would provide the lamb for the burnt-offering.  The ram that was caught in the thicket is symbolic of the Jesus the lamb of God who gave his life freely as a sacrifice to God as a propitiation for the sins of the world.  God could have stopped this at any time, but it was necessary for him to allow this in order for man to overcome even the threat of a man or men to crucify him if he did not renounce his faith and obedience to God.

The following scripture testifies to this:

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Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion F7 as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

And as a Christian striving to walk after the example of my Lord the scripture states to me:

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Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

You say:

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Please note one important thing here: he did this BEFORE the supposed 'indwelling' of the Holy Spirit which goes to show you that faith in G-d does not require this as the Christian bible says.

Abraham's faith was based on the fact that God had spoken to him and he believed God's promises.  However, Abraham died in faith.  Eternal life can only come through the indwelling of the life of God, and all of those who died in faith under the Old Testament will be raised from the dead by the Spirit of God when Jesus comes for the church.

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Hebrews 9   1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances F25 of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. 2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. F26 3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; 4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; 5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly. 6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. 7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: 8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: 9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, F27 imposed on them until the time of reformation. 11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot F28 to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be F29 the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated F30 without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet F31 wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. 23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

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Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

God Bless

[Towshab]

Quote (942767 @ Nov. 04 2007,15:24)

Hi Towshab: Abraham's faith was such that he knew that if he sacrificed Isaac that God was able to raise him from the dead because the blessings that God promised him were to come through Isaac.

No because you listed the reality below. Abraham said nothing about Isaac being raised if he was sacrificed but that a lamb would be provided. So Abraham had faith that Isaac would never be sacrificed but that the sacrifice would be another.

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But the following verse is very important because listen to what Abraham says: Quote וַיֹּאמֶר יִצְחָק אֶל-אַבְרָהָם אָבִיו, וַיֹּאמֶר אָבִי, וַיֹּאמֶר, הִנֶּנִּי בְנִי; וַיֹּאמֶר, הִנֵּה הָאֵשׁ וְהָעֵצִים, וְאַיֵּה הַשֶּׂה, לְעֹלָה. 7 And Isaac spoke unto Abraham his father, and said: 'My father.' And he said: 'Here am I, my son.' And he said: 'Behold the fire and the wood; but where is the lamb for a burnt-offering?' ח וַיֹּאמֶר, אַבְרָהָם, אֱלֹהִים יִרְאֶה-לּוֹ הַשֶּׂה לְעֹלָה, בְּנִי; וַיֵּלְכוּ שְׁנֵיהֶם, יַחְדָּו. 8 And Abraham said: 'God will provide Himself the lamb for a burnt-offering, my son.' So they went both of them together. Abraham said that God would provide the lamb for the burnt-offering. The ram that was caught in the thicket is symbolic of the Jesus the lamb of God who gave his life freely as a sacrifice to God as a propitiation for the sins of the world.

The ram is only symbolic when one want to read Jesus back into the narrative. But guess what? The sacrifice was given that very day, not thousands of years in the future.

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God could have stopped this at any time, but it was necessary for him to allow this in order for man to overcome even the threat of a man or men to crucify him if he did not renounce his faith and obedience to God. The following scripture testifies to this: Quote Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion F7 as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The Christian bible again robs G-d of His glory and gives it to a man. Are you still unsure why observant Jews will not accept Jesus?

Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

See what Christianity has done? They have taken the honor from G-d and placed it on Jesus!! How can they do this?

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And as a Christian striving to walk after the example of my Lord the scripture states to me: Quote Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. You say: Quote Please note one important thing here: he did this BEFORE the supposed 'indwelling' of the Holy Spirit which goes to show you that faith in G-d does not require this as the Christian bible says. Abraham's faith was based on the fact that God had spoken to him and he believed God's promises. However, Abraham died in faith. Eternal life can only come through the indwelling of the life of God, and all of those who died in faith under the Old Testament will be raised from the dead by the Spirit of God when Jesus comes for the church.

Why was Jesus needed then if man could have faith before him? What changed? Replacement theology is bunk.

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Quote Hebrews 9 1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances F25 of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. 2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. F26 3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; 4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; 5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly. 6 Now when these things wer e thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God. 7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: 8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: 9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; 10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, F27 imposed on them until the time of reformation. 11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot F28 to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be F29 the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated F30 without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet F31 wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. 23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Quote Galatians 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, 5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. God Bless

After I finish Matthew (someday!!) I will tackle Hebrews. The book of Hebrews twists so much of the Jewish bible that it needs to be pointed out. The book of Hebrews is blasphemous.

[942767]

Hi Towshab:

You say:

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The Christian bible again robs G-d of His glory and gives it to a man. Are you still unsure why observant Jews will not accept Jesus? Isa 45:22  Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. Isa 45:23  I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. See what Christianity has done? They have taken the honor from G-d and placed it on Jesus!! How can they do this?

Did not God use Moses to deliver the childen of Israel out of bondage in Egypt?

This is what Jesus says:

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1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

It was God who exalted him to his position of head over the church, and we as Christians are subjected to God through him.  It is the Word of God that we are striving to obey.  Jesus did not teach his own thoughts nor did he say that we should worship him as God.  We do honor him because of what he as done for us in obedience to what God has done for us through him, and he is indeed worthy of all our honor and praise.

Then you say:

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Why was Jesus needed then if man could have faith before him? What changed? Replacement theology is bunk.

A man can have faith that there is a God and that the Tenach is true, but that does not necessarily mean that they are serving God or that they have a personal relationship with Him.  The sacrifice of Jesus was necessary so that our sins could be forgiven and that God by his Spirit could indwell us.

You say that replacement theology is bunk. But no, there is an Israel of God which is from all nations including believers from the Nation of Israel.  

One of the reasons that Israel exists again as a nation is so that the gospel can be preached to them as a nation again as it was first preached to them in the ministry of Jesus at the onset of the New Covenant.

This is what God said to Abraham:

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יב  וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים אֶל-אַבְרָהָם, אַל-יֵרַע בְּעֵינֶיךָ עַל-הַנַּעַר וְעַל-אֲמָתֶךָ–כֹּל אֲשֶׁר תֹּאמַר אֵלֶיךָ שָׂרָה, שְׁמַע בְּקֹלָהּ:  כִּי בְיִצְחָק, יִקָּרֵא לְךָ זָרַע.  12 And God said unto Abraham: 'Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah saith unto thee, hearken unto her voice; FOR IN ISAAC SHALL SEED BE CALLED TO THEE.

The gospel is to preached to all nations.  Isaac had two sons: Jacob who wrestled with God and man and whose name was changed to Israel, and Esau who sold his birthrite.  Easau repesents those who will not be born again because they did not believe God's message regarding his gift to humanity in His Son and His Christ.

However, as you say, every man is accountable  to God for his own sins so then if you say that Isaiah 53 is speaking of the Nation of Israel, please explain the following scriptures:

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ג  נִבְזֶה וַחֲדַל אִישִׁים, אִישׁ מַכְאֹבוֹת וִידוּעַ חֹלִי; וּכְמַסְתֵּר פָּנִים מִמֶּנּוּ, נִבְזֶה וְלֹא חֲשַׁבְנֻהוּ.  3 He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: he was despised, and we esteemed him not.   ד  אָכֵן חֳלָיֵנוּ הוּא נָשָׂא, וּמַכְאֹבֵינוּ סְבָלָם; וַאֲנַחְנוּ חֲשַׁבְנֻהוּ, נָגוּעַ מֻכֵּה אֱלֹהִים וּמְעֻנֶּה.  4 Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried; whereas we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.   ה  וְהוּא מְחֹלָל מִפְּשָׁעֵנוּ, מְדֻכָּא מֵעֲו‍ֹנ&#1465 ;תֵינוּ; מוּסַר שְׁלוֹמֵנוּ עָלָיו, וּבַחֲבֻרָתוֹ נִרְפָּא-לָנוּ.  5 But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed.   ו  כֻּלָּנוּ כַּצֹּאן תָּעִינוּ, אִישׁ לְדַרְכּוֹ פָּנִינוּ; וַיהוָה הִפְגִּיעַ בּוֹ, אֵת עֲו‍ֹן כֻּלָּנוּ.  6 All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath made to light on him the iniquity of us all.   ז  נִגַּשׂ וְהוּא נַעֲנֶה, וְלֹא יִפְתַּח-פִּיו, כַּשֶּׂה לַטֶּבַח יוּבָל, וּכְרָחֵל לִפְנֵי גֹזְזֶיהָ נֶאֱלָמָה; וְלֹא יִפְתַּח, פִּיו.  7 He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before her shearers is dumb; yea, he opened not his mouth.   ח  מֵעֹצֶר וּמִמִּשְׁפָּט לֻקָּח, וְאֶת-דּוֹרוֹ מִי יְשׂוֹחֵחַ:  כִּי נִגְזַר מֵאֶרֶץ חַיִּים, מִפֶּשַׁע עַמִּי נֶגַע לָמוֹ.  8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away, and with his generation who did reason? for he was cut off out of the land of the living, for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due.   ט  וַיִּתֵּן אֶת-רְשָׁעִים קִבְרוֹ, וְאֶת-עָשִׁיר בְּמֹתָיו; עַל לֹא-חָמָס עָשָׂה, וְלֹא מִרְמָה בְּפִיו.  9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich his tomb; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.'   י  וַיהוָה חָפֵץ דַּכְּאוֹ, הֶחֱלִי–אִם-תָּשִׂים אָשָׁם נַפְשׁוֹ, יִרְאֶה זֶרַע יַאֲרִיךְ יָמִים; וְחֵפֶץ יְהוָה, בְּיָדוֹ יִצְלָח.  10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand:   יא  מֵעֲמַל נַפְשׁוֹ, יִרְאֶה יִשְׂבָּע–בְּדַעְתּוֹ יַצְדִּיק צַדִּיק עַבְדִּי, לָרַבִּים; וַעֲו‍ֹנֹתָם, הוּא יִסְבֹּל.  11 Of the travail of his soul he shall see to the full, even My servant, who by his knowledge did justify the Righteous One to the many, and their iniquities he did bear.   יב  לָכֵן אֲחַלֶּק-לוֹ בָרַבִּים, וְאֶת-עֲצוּמִים יְחַלֵּק שָׁלָל, תַּחַת אֲשֶׁר הֶעֱרָה לַמָּוֶת נַפְשׁוֹ, וְאֶת-פֹּשְׁעִים נִמְנָה; וְהוּא חֵטְא-רַבִּים נָשָׂא, וְלַפֹּשְׁעִים יַפְגִּיעַ.  {פ}  12 Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty; because he bared his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Salvation of one's soul is by Faith so that it might be by grace.  It is not of works lest any man should boast.  It is not because of our goodness that we are saved from the consequence of sin but because of God's goodness.

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Romans 4 – Study This Chapter   1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed G od, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

And just to make sure that what I am saying is not interpreted to mean that we don't have to obey God:

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Romans 6 – Study This Chapter   1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed F21 from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments F22 of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which F23 was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

God Bless

[acertainchap]

Quote (kejonn @ July 16 2007,07:13)

“33 years of inconvenience in the face of eternity is not a sacrifice.”

I beg to differ. Jesus' sacrifice was the ultimate sacrifice for our sins. I'm saddened that you think that it wasn't a sacrifice.

[GeneBalthrop]

Towshab…..> The right of kinsmen redeemer is found in the Torah, Boaz was just exorcising His right as a Kinsmen redeemer.

Here is were you can find it in the Torah.

Lev 25:48 & 49
Exo 13:13 & 15
Lev 25:25-26 & 29
Num 18:15-18
and also in the Plsam 49:15, 69:18

God's idea of redemption was in the law along.

shalom…….gene

[Towshab]

Quote (942767 @ Nov. 04 2007,18:27)

Hi Towshab: You say: Quote The Christian bible again robs G-d of His glory and gives it to a man. Are you still unsure why observant Jews will not accept Jesus? Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. See what Christianity has done? They have taken the honor from G-d and placed it on Jesus!! How can they do this? Did not God use Moses to deliver the childen of Israel out of bondage in Egypt?

What does this have to do with the Christians robbing glory from G-d and giving it to Jesus? The Jewish bible tells us that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess before G-d, the Christian bible says Jesus. This is what I refer to. Its like they put Jesus before G-d. In the Christian bible, G-d is a 'silent partner'.

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This is what Jesus says: Quote 1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. It was God who exalted him to his position of head over the church, and we as Christians are subjected to God through him. It is the Word of God that we are striving to obey. Jesus did not teach his own thoughts nor did he say that we should worship him as God. We do honor him because of what he as done for us in obedience to what God has done for us through him, and he is indeed worthy of all our honor and praise.

Yet millions DO worship him as G-d. The majority of Christians are either trinitarians or something similar. They thus equate Jesus with G-d. This robs G-d of His glory. Whether or not Jesus says the things he says does not balance the bulk of the Christian bible that leads many to believe he is equal with G-d.

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Then you say: Quote Why was Jesus needed then if man could have faith before him? What changed? Replacement theology is bunk. A man can have faith that there is a God and that the Tenach is true, but that does not necessarily mean that they are serving God or that they have a personal relationship with Him. The sacrifice of Jesus was necessary so that our sins could be forgiven and that God by his Spirit could indwell us.

This is only according to the Christian faith. There is no evidence whatsoever in Judaism that a man is needed to reach G-d' each person has a personal relationship with G-d and we do not need a 'middle man' to atone for our sins. Personal repentance, charity, and prayer is what G-d requires for forgiveness and atonement.

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You say that replacement theology is bunk. But no, there is an Israel of God which is from all nations including believers from the Nation of Israel.

I apologize for saying this but G-d never told His people such would be the case. There is no 'spiritual' Israel. There is just Israel. In order to be a Jew one must convert to Judaism. Christianity and Judaism are two very different things.

People are either born Jews or converted.

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One of the reasons that Israel exists again as a nation is so that the gospel can be preached to them as a nation again as it was first preached to them in the ministry of Jesus at the onset of the New Covenant.

The reason the nation of Israel is once more is not so Christians can witness to them. The messianic age began the day Jerusalem fell and the temple was destroyed in 70 AD. We are not in the end times of the messianic age but each day brings us closer. The nations of the world are still trying to destroy Israel and the Christians are trying to convert them. Both are serious threats to their existence but they will survive even if it is but a remnant. G-d will not allow His people to perish.

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This is what God said to Abraham: Quote יב וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים אֶל-אַבְרָהָם, אַל-יֵרַע בְּעֵינֶיךָ עַל-הַנַּעַר וְעַל-אֲמָתֶךָ–כֹּל אֲשֶׁר תֹּאמַר אֵלֶיךָ שָׂרָה, שְׁמַע בְּקֹלָהּ: כִּי בְיִצְחָק, יִקָּרֵא לְךָ זָ&# 1512;ַע. 12 And God said unto Abraham: 'Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah saith unto thee, hearken unto her voice; FOR IN ISAAC SHALL SEED BE CALLED TO THEE. The gospel is to preached to all nations. Isaac had two sons: Jacob who wrestled with God and man and whose name was changed to Israel, and Esau who sold his birthrite. Easau repesents those who will not be born again because they did not believe God's message regarding his gift to humanity in His Son and His Christ.

I have to admit that is the first I've heard that Christian interpretation and I was a serious Christian for many years! But there is no indication in the story of Jacob and Israel to lead to that interpretation. Rather it is what it is: Jacob became Israel and Esau became Gentile.

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However, as you say, every man is accountable to God for his own sins so then if you say that Isaiah 53 is speaking of the Nation of Israel, please explain the following scriptures: Quote ג נִבְזֶה וַחֲדַל אִישִׁים, אִישׁ מַכְאֹבוֹת וִידוּעַ חֹלִי; וּכְמַסְתֵּר פָּנִים מִמֶּנּוּ, נִבְזֶה וְלֹא חֲשַׁבְנֻהוּ. 3 He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: he was despised, and we esteemed him not. ד אָכֵן חֳלָיֵנוּ הוּא נָשָׂא, וּמַכְאֹבֵינוּ סְבָלָם; וַאֲנַחְנוּ חֲשַׁבְנֻהוּ, נָגוּעַ מֻכֵּה אֱלֹהִים וּמְעֻנֶּה. 4 Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried; whereas we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. ה וְהוּא מְחֹלָל מִפְּשָׁעֵנוּ, מְדֻכָּא מֵעֲו‍ֹנֹתֵינוּ; מוּסַר שְׁלוֹמֵנוּ עָלָיו, וּבַחֲבֻרָתוֹ נִרְפָּא-לָנוּ. 5 But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed. ו כֻּלָּנוּ כַּצֹּאן תָּעִינוּ, אִישׁ לְדַרְכּוֹ פָּנִינוּ; וַיהוָה הִפְגִּיעַ בּוֹ, אֵת עֲו‍ֹן כֻּלָּנוּ. 6 All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath made to light on him the iniquity of us all. ז נִגַּשׂ וְהוּא נַעֲנֶה, וְלֹא יִפְתַּח-פִּיו, כַּשֶּׂה לַטֶּבַח יוּבָל, וּכְרָחֵל לִפְנֵי גֹזְזֶיהָ נֶאֱלָמָה; וְלֹא יִפְתַּח, פִּיו. 7 He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before her shearers is dumb; yea, he opened not his mouth. ח מֵעֹצֶר וּמִמִּשְׁפָּט לֻקָּח, וְאֶת-דּוֹרוֹ מִי יְשׂוֹחֵחַ: כִּי נִגְזַר מֵאֶרֶץ חַיִּים, מִפֶּשַׁע עַמִּי נֶגַע לָמוֹ. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away, and with his generation who did reason? for he was cut off out of the land of the living, for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due. ט וַיִּתֵּן אֶת-רְשָׁעִים קִבְרוֹ, וְאֶת-עָשִׁיר בְּמֹתָיו; עַל לֹא-חָמָס עָשָׂה, וְלֹא מִרְמָה בְּפִיו. 9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich his tomb; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.' י וַיהוָה חָפֵץ דַּכְּאוֹ, הֶחֱלִי–אִם-תָּשִׂים אָשָׁם נַפְשׁוֹ, יִרְאֶה זֶרַע יַאֲ&#1512 ;ִיךְ יָמִים; וְחֵפֶץ יְהוָה, בְּיָדוֹ יִצְלָח. 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease; to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his hand: יא מֵעֲמַל נַפְשׁוֹ, יִרְאֶה יִשְׂבָּע–בְּדַעְתּוֹ יַצְדִּיק צַדִּיק עַבְדִּי, לָרַבִּים; וַעֲו‍ֹנֹתָם, הוּא יִסְבֹּל. 11 Of the travail of his soul he shall see to the full, even My servant, who by his knowledge did justify the Righteous One to the many, and their iniquities he did bear. יב לָכֵן אֲחַלֶּק-לוֹ בָרַבִּים, וְאֶת-עֲצוּמִים יְחַלֵּק שָׁלָל, תַּחַת אֲשֶׁר הֶעֱרָה לַמָּוֶת נַפְשׁוֹ, וְאֶת-פֹּשְׁעִים נִמְנָה; וְהוּא חֵטְא-רַבִּים נָשָׂא, וְלַפֹּשְׁעִים יַפְגִּיעַ. {פ} 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty; because he bared his soul unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

I've already discussed some of Is 53 with Gene in the trinity monster thread (a very large hint on the confusion of Christianity's god). But a very good interpretation of Is 53 can be found here.

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Salvation of one's soul is by Faith so that it might be by grace. It is not of works lest any man should boast. It is not because of our goodness that we are saved from the consequence of sin but because of God's goodness.

Salvation is purely up to G-d. It was never up to man in any case but it is up to each individual to seek Him. Christianity teaches that one must trust in a man to save him when Judaism teaches that salvation is only found in G-d. Very few Jews believe that 'works' result in salvation. The message of Judaism was seriously twisted in the Christian bible.

In fact, Christianity does a disservice by saying all you have to do is believe in Jesus. That is really not the whole truth of the gospel message but most adhere to that message. So many people think all they have to do is believe in Jesus and they have their 'fire insurance'. What a disservice to G-d! By striving to keep G-d's commandments one shows how much G-d means to them. Christians think they can do just about anything because of 'grace'.

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Quote Romans 4 – Study This Chapter 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, And just to make sure that what I am saying is not interpreted to mean that we don't have to obey God: Quote Romans 6 – Study This Chapter 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7 For he that is dead is freed F21 from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments F22 of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which F23 was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. God Bless

I know Romans well. It was a book I loved as a Christian. But then I realized it too was full of conflicts with the Jewish bible. Paul took too many liberties with the Torah. He could do this because he was writing to Gentiles not Jews.

Shalom.

[Towshab]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 04 2007,19:50)

Towshab…..> The right of kinsmen redeemer is found in the Torah, Boaz was just exorcising His right as a Kinsmen redeemer. Here is were you can find it in the Torah. Lev 25:48 & 49 Exo 13:13 & 15 Lev 25:25-26 & 29 Num 18:15-18 and also in the Plsam 49:15, 69:18 God's idea of redemption was in the law along. shalom…….gene

Thank you you are right I was only thinking of Ruth.

But none of these says that another human needs to die for the sins of another as a form of atonement.

[942767]

Hi Towshab:

You say in response to me in the following:

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Quote (942767 @ Nov. 04 2007,15:24) Hi Towshab: Abraham's faith was such that he knew that if he sacrificed Isaac that God was able to raise him from the dead because the blessings that God promised him were to come through Isaac. No because you listed the reality below. Abraham said nothing about Isaac being raised if he was sacrificed but that a lamb would be provided. So Abraham had faith that Isaac would never be sacrificed but that the sacrifice would be another.

I disagree in that Abraham obeyed the commandment of God that He should sacrifice his beloved son Isaac, and that is exactly what he was willing to do.

And although the sacrifice was provided then, that does not discount the fact that it symbolized the sacrifice that God would provide in the person of His Only begotten Son.

You say that every man must die for his own sins and so the fact that you refer me to something which shows that Isaiah 53 refers to the Nation of Israel in light of this statement does not satisfy me at all.  Please focus on just the following to see what I am saying:

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ה  וְהוּא מְחֹלָל מִפְּשָׁעֵנוּ, מְדֻכָּא מֵעֲו‍ֹנֹתֵינוּ; מוּסַר שְׁלוֹמֵנוּ עָלָיו, וּבַחֲבֻרָתוֹ נִרְפָּא-לָנוּ.  5 But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and WITH HIS STRIPES WE WERE HEALED.   ו  כֻּלָּנוּ כַּצֹּאן תָּעִינוּ, אִישׁ לְדַרְכּוֹ פָּנִינוּ; וַיהוָה הִפְגִּיעַ בּוֹ, אֵת עֲו‍ֹן כֻּלָּנוּ.  6 All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way; and THE LORD HATH MADE TO LIGHT ON HIM the INIQUITY OF US ALL.

This can only refer to Jesus.  No, no man born of the sperm of man can die for anyone because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.  No, it does not say specifically “die”, but someone would be trying very hard not to believe that Jesus is not the Messiah in order deny that this refers to what he did at Calvary.  I know what it means.

You say:

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Salvation is purely up to G-d. It was never up to man in any case but it is up to each individual to seek Him. Christianity teaches that one must trust in a man to save him when Judaism teaches that salvation is only found in G-d. Very few Jews believe that 'works' result in salvation. The message of Judaism was seriously twisted in the Christian bible.

Again, it was God who sent Moses to deliver the Nation of Israel from bondage to Pharoah, and it was God who sent His Only Begotten Son into the world to deliver us from the consequence from sin, and it was God who was doing the works through Jesus.  But to the degree that we believe that he obeyed God without sin then yes, we have put our trust in him.

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1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead

You say:

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In fact, Christianity does a disservice by saying all you have to do is believe in Jesus. That is really not the whole truth of the gospel message but most adhere to that message. So many people think all they have to do is believe in Jesus and they have their 'fire insurance'. What a disservice to G-d! By striving to keep G-d's commandments one shows how much G-d means to them. Christians think they can do just about anything because of 'grace'.

Believing is not just a mental assent, and you seem to know that there is more to the gospel message than this, and so why are you judging all Christians by those that are not obeying the gospel.  To make a blanket statement saying, “Christians think that they can do just about anything because of 'grace'” is not right.  Anyway, you nor I are the judge.  Do you know a person's heart?  I obey God because I love Him not because I fear Him.  Well, I don't have any reason to fear Him because I do obey Him.  What about you?  Are you trusting in your own righteousness for your salvation?  Have you obeyed the Law without ever violating one of the commandments?

You say that you believe that the book of Hebrews twists many of the Jewish scriptures.  I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say, and I would like to hear the significance of the “days of awe” and the events of Yom Kippur when the temple was still standing from your perspective.

God Bless

[Towshab]

Quote (942767 @ Nov. 04 2007,22:15)

Hi Towshab: You say in response to me in the following: Quote Quote (942767 @ Nov. 04 2007,15:24) Hi Towshab: Abraham's faith was such that he knew that if he sacrificed Isaac that God was able to raise him from the dead because the blessings that God promised him were to come through Isaac. No because you listed the reality below. Abraham said nothing about Isaac being raised if he was sacrificed but that a lamb would be provided. So Abraham had faith that Isaac would never be sacrificed but that the sacrifice would be another. I disagree in that Abraham obeyed the commandment of God that He should sacrifice his beloved son Isaac, and that is exactly what he was willing to do.

Yes Abraham was both faithful and obedient. All without the ‘indwelling’ of the Holy Spirit! Somewhat strange for a man who was born of a sinful nature from Adam wouldn’t you say?

But you forget one vital tidbit

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Gen 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
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How could G-d do this if Isaac was dead? So Abraham trusted in G-d’s promise to him concerning Isaac and while he was obedient in doing as G-d commanded he knew G-d would keep His promise.

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And although the sacrifice was provided then, that does not discount the fact that it symbolized the sacrifice that God would provide in the person of His Only begotten Son.

This can only be ‘true’ for you because you read Jesus back into it. Yet there is no indication that this is true other than Christian bias.

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You say that every man must die for his own sins and so the fact that you refer me to something which shows that Isaiah 53 refers to the Nation of Israel in light of this statement does not satisfy me at all. Please focus on just the following to see what I am saying: Quote ה וְהוּא מְחֹלָל מִפְּשָׁעֵנוּ, מְדֻכָּא מֵעֲו‍ֹנֹתֵינוּ; מוּסַר שְׁלוֹמֵנוּ עָלָיו, וּבַחֲבֻרָתוֹ נִרְפָּא-לָנוּ. 5 But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and WITH HIS STRIPES WE WERE HEALED. ו כֻּלָּנוּ כַּצֹּאן תָּעִינוּ, אִישׁ לְדַרְכּוֹ פָּנִינוּ; וַיהוָה הִפְגִּיעַ בּוֹ, אֵת עֲו‍ֹן כֻּלָּנוּ. 6 All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way; and THE LORD HATH MADE TO LIGHT ON HIM the INIQUITY OF US ALL. This can only refer to Jesus. No, no man born of the sperm of man can die for anyone because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. No, it does not say specifically “die”, but someone would be trying very hard not to believe that Jesus is not the Messiah in order deny that this refers to what he did at Calvary. I know what it means.

Why can this ‘only refer to Jesus’? Where you healed by his whippings? That is where the stripes came from. Yes the theme of Jesus is that the iniquities of mankind was laid upon him but again no one else can die for your sins. That is quite evident all throughout the Tanakh. Why would G-d change gears here in Is 53?

Is there a people who have by persecuted more than the nation of Israel? Did the people persecuting do so because they were nice people who loved G-d? One day the Gentile nations will realize that they were wrong and that the Jews have followed the G-d of all flesh, albeit very imperfectly, and that is the theme of Isaiah 53. Do not forget

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Zec 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
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Why will ten people grab the garment of a Jew if Jesus is the way? Is G-d lying here? For he says the Jews have G-d with them. It does not say that Christians have Jesus with them. Even your own bible does not refute this. Strange isn’t it?

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You say: Quote Salvation is purely up to G-d. It was never up to man in any case but it is up to each individual to seek Him. Christianity teaches that one must trust in a man to save him when Judaism teaches that salvation is only found in G-d. Very few Jews believe that 'works' result in salvation. The message of Judaism was seriously twisted in the Christian bible. Again, it was God who sent Moses to deliver the Nation of Israel from bondage to Pharoah, and it was God who sent His Only Begotten Son into the world to deliver us from the consequence from sin, and it was God who was doing the works through Jesus. But to the degree that we believe that he obeyed God without sin then yes, we have put our trust in him.

The idea that Jesus was without sin is false. He violated G-d’s Torah in several instances and I’m not talking about the Sabbath. I will demonstrate.

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Exo 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Lev 19:3 Ye shall fear every man his mother, and
his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.

Pro 30:17 The eye that mocketh at his father, and despiseth to obey his mother, the ravens of the valley shall pick it out, and the young eagles shall eat it
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So how well did Jesus fare in light of the above?

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Mat 12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
Mat 12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
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Well it seems Jesus didn’t care too much for his biological mother and sought to replace her with others. Is that what G-d says? How is speaking in this manner honoring Mary? Yet Mary stuck with him at his death after he spoke of her this way. That shows the true love of a mother and also one who fears G-d! There is more.

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Joh 2:3 And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.
Joh 2:4 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Mat 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Mat 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
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So much for that ‘honoring mother and father’ thing. Throw that commandment out the window. Perhaps that’s the real reason Jesus’ days were not prolonged upon the earth!

Is that all though? Nah! According to the synoptic gospels, Jesus shared the Passover Seder with his disciples on the eve of his death. Part of that observation is to only eat unleavened bread.

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Exo 12:15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.

Exo 12:18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.
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Yet what kind of bread did Jesus and his disciples eat?

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Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread {‘artos’}, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
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‘Artos’ is the Greek word for regular leavened bread. The word for unleavened is ‘azumos’ as found in Mat 26:17, Mark 14:1, Acts 12:3, etc. Thus Jesus disobeyed Torah by eating leavened bread during the Passover Seder. Not only that but none of the gospel accounts speak of Jesus and his disciples actually eating of the paschal lamb during Seder. It can be assumed though (there is much that must be assumed in the Christian bible!).

But let’s continue on. Unlike the way that Jewish people are presented in their attitude towards Gentiles, there are words from G-d that address how Jews are to treat Gentiles.

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Exo 22:21 [ESV] “You shall not wrong a sojourner or oppress him, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt.

Lev 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Deu 10:19 Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.
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These verse speak of the welcome attitude that Jews should have for those who are not, the Gentiles. How does Jesus treat the Gentiles?

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Mat 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
Mat 15:23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Mat 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
Mat 15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
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When I was a Christian I felt the message of this was that Gentiles could have faith in G-d too. I was right on that one! But here Jesus first ignores here and then calls her a dog. So is that the way G-d commanded His children to treat strangers? Next.

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Deu 4:1 Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you.
Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Deu 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
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G-d says here and other places that no one is to add to or take away from the commandments he has given. Yet we find that Jesus did that!

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Mat 15:11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

Mat 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
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All you have to do is check out Lev 11 to find out that Jesus was ignoring the dietary commandments given to G-d’s people. Again Jesus violates G-d’s Torah.

There are others I’m sure I will encounter but this short list shows that Jesus was certainly not sinless.

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Quote 1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead You say: Quote In fact, Christianity does a disservice by saying all you have to do is believe in Jesus. That is really not the whole truth of the gosp el message but most adhere to that message. So many people think all they have to do is believe in Jesus and they have their 'fire insurance'. What a disservice to G-d! By striving to keep G-d's commandments one shows how much G-d means to them. Christians think they can do just about anything because of 'grace'. Believing is not just a mental assent, and you seem to know that there is more to the gospel message than this, and so why are you judging all Christians by those that are not obeying the gospel. To make a blanket statement saying, “Christians think that they can do just about anything because of 'grace'” is not right. Anyway, you nor I are the judge. Do you know a person's heart? I obey God because I love Him not because I fear Him. Well, I don't have any reason to fear Him because I do obey Him. What about you? Are you trusting in your own righteousness for your salvation? Have you obeyed the Law without ever violating one of the commandments?

That is perhaps THE biggest lie of the Christian bible and it has led to much confusion. No one keeps the Torah 100% nor can we. If that were the case there would be no need for repentance and forgiveness. But our ‘salvation’ does not come from perfectly keeping G-d’s Torah. Again, the Jewish scriptures never say one must keep G-d’s Torah without error to be pleasing to G-d. If that were the case than King David wouldn’t have stood a chance! Yet he was a man after G-d’s own heart was he not? And he didn’t have to have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to do that did he? Yet another example of a person who loved G-d and was faithful to Him without the ‘indwelling’.

Just read Psalms. Most of those are David crying out to G-d. That is what G-d desires: that we call on Him.

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Isa 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
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How many people in the Tanakh were called righteous? Was it because they never sinned? Do you truly think that before the adversary took much from him that Job was totally without sin?

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Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
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Men took the salvation plan found in the Jewish scriptures and turned them around. In the Tanakh men are to trust in G-d but in the Christian bible they are to trust in Jesus. Why would G-d change His salvation plan? Was G-d imperfect?

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You say that you believe that the book of Hebrews twists many of the Jewish scriptures. I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say, and I would like to hear the significance of the “days of awe” and the events of Yom Kippur when the temple was still standing from your perspective. God Bless

You will have to be patient and wait for me to finish Matthew. Then I will work on Hebrews because that book is perhaps the most misleading book in all of the Christian bible.

[NickHassan]

Hi Kj,
You said
“I do not mean to cheapen the death on the cross. It is our everything. “
Is this still true?

[Not3in1]

In light of the conversation surrounding Jesus previous “glory”, I got to thinking about his sacrifice and what it truly meant if he was only returning to the glory he gave up.

Would the sacrifice really be a sacrifice? Or just a temporary inconvenience?

[NickHassan]

Hi not3,
Do we have as much faith?

[Not3in1]

Faith is believing in things not seen. Is the evidence of our hope. If it is true that Jesus gave up previous glory and asked the Father for that glory to be restored, then Jesus didn't need faith.

[Author]

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