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Hi,
The first resurrection;
Jn 5.25
“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live”
” the sheep follow him because they know his voice” Jn 10.4
“But if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you” Rom 8.11The second resurrection;
Jn 5.28f
“Do not marvel at this;for an hour is coming in which ALL who are in the tombs will hear his voice, and will come forth;those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgement”So whose voice will be heard by those in the first resurrection? The Son of God's by those in whom the Spirit of God still dwells.
And whose voice will bring up the dead at the second resurrection? The Son of God's will be heard by all.
So looking at 1Thess 4.16
” For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God
and
the dead in Christ will rise first”The voice of the Archangel relates to the return of Christ and not the raising of the dead.
Hey Nick.
I lost you at that last sentence. I don't understand why you say that at all.Speaking of the voice of the Son of God, while on earth as a human, Jesus performed several resurrections. In doing so, he used his voice to utter commanding calls. For example, when resurrecting the dead son of a widow in the city of Nain, he said: “Young man, I say to you, Get up!” (Luke 7:14, 15) Later, just before resurrecting his friend Lazarus, Jesus “cried out with a loud voice: ‘Lazarus, come on out!’” (John 11:43) But on these occasions, Jesus’ voice was the voice of a perfect man.
After his own resurrection, Jesus was raised to a “superior position” in heaven as a spirit creature. (Philippians 2:9) No longer a human, he has the voice of an archangel. So when God’s trumpet sounded the call for “those who are dead in union with Christ” to be raised to heaven, Jesus issued “a commanding call,” this time “with an archangel’s voice.”
Hi david,
Yes and so did Peter raise the dead. Was his the voice of a perfect man? Why not realise that the voice of the archangel was announcing the return of Christ and not raising the dead? Why would the Son of God use a subordinate being's voice?Strange.
Where does it say men go to to heaven?
Nick, I'm curious if there are any threads on 'men going to heaven.'
If not, I'd like you to create one please.Quote Why would the Son of God use a subordinate being's voice?
EXACTLY. He wouldn't. And since we are told that he “descend[ed] from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,” and since it makes no sence that the Son of God would use a subordinate being's voice, that only leaves one undeniable conclusion, doesn't it–They are the same. I would like to thank you for finally proving this.Quote (david @ Nov. 27 2005,04:20) Nick, I'm curious if there are any threads on 'men going to heaven.'
If not, I'd like you to create one please.Quote Why would the Son of God use a subordinate being's voice?
EXACTLY. He wouldn't. And since we are told that he “descend[ed] from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,” and since it makes no sence that the Son of God would use a subordinate being's voice, that only leaves one undeniable conclusion, doesn't it–They are the same. I would like to thank you for finally proving this.
david,
Why not create one yourself?The Voice of God
Now there's a good subject for a thread.
Paul says today if you hear His voice, and likens his words to those of Moses when God spoke to the people through him.
Angel can mean messenger. God has earthly messengers and heavenly messengers.
Paul said though we or an angel from heaven preach any other than what I have preached to you let him be cursed.
Though an earthly or a heavenly angel…
So clearly both are possible and the test of the claim to hear from a heavenly angel is that it will not contradict the record God gave us by an earthly angel.
I think this would be an excellent discussion point.
Take for example Rev 10 where we see an earhtly angel (the arch angel of Thessalonians?) descending to earth, and also an earthly angel (7th angel – messenger – is this the angel of the 7th church in chapters 2-3?) …Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 26 2005,19:47) Hi,
The first resurrection;
Jn 5.25
“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live”
” the sheep follow him because they know his voice” Jn 10.4
“But if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you” Rom 8.11The second resurrection;
Jn 5.28f
“Do not marvel at this;for an hour is coming in which ALL who are in the tombs will hear his voice, and will come forth;those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgement”So whose voice will be heard by those in the first resurrection? The Son of God's by those in whom the Spirit of God still dwells.
And whose voice will bring up the dead at the second resurrection? The Son of God's will be heard by all.
So looking at 1Thess 4.16
” For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God
and
the dead in Christ will rise first”The voice of the Archangel relates to the return of Christ and not the raising of the dead.
Could it be that the resurrection referred to in Thess. is where God gives eternal life to those who have been saved since the age of grace began (the fullness of the gentile). And the final resurrection will be for those who were under the law or were a law onto themselves (as inferred by the parable of goats and sheep their entry into the Kingdom for them is through works, “you've done this unto Me”).The reason I ask is so many people quote “well done my good and faithful servant” as applying to us, not that he may not say it to us also, but this verse as I see it, is talking to those who prevailed under the law, such as King David (just so there is no misunderstanding Jesus was the sacrifice that took away sin even to those who lived under the law, but they are under a different covenant).
I believe my ramblings above are based on some revelations that God has given me (a deeper level of understanding of scripture then I had before) but I'm still trying to sort it out.
Quote (seekingtruth @ April 01 2006,12:36) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 26 2005,19:47) Hi,
The first resurrection;
Jn 5.25
“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live”
” the sheep follow him because they know his voice” Jn 10.4
“But if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you” Rom 8.11The second resurrection;
Jn 5.28f
“Do not marvel at this;for an hour is coming in which ALL who are in the tombs will hear his voice, and will come forth;those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgement”So whose voice will be heard by those in the first resurrection? The Son of God's by those in whom the Spirit of God still dwells.
And whose voice will bring up the dead at the second resurrection? The Son of God's will be heard by all.
So looking at 1Thess 4.16
” For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God
and
the dead in Christ will rise first”The voice of the Archangel relates to the return of Christ and not the raising of the dead.
Could it be that the resurrection referred to in Thess. is where God gives eternal life to those who have been saved since the age of grace began (the fullness of the gentile). And the final resurrection will be for those who were under the law or were a law onto themselves (as inferred by the parable of goats and sheep their entry into the Kingdom for them is through works, “you've done this unto Me”).The reason I ask is so many people quote “well done my good and faithful servant” as applying to us, not that he may not say it to us also, but this verse as I see it, is talking to those who prevailed under the law, such as King David (just so there is no misunderstanding Jesus was the sacrifice that took away sin even to those who lived under the law, but they are under a different covenant).
I believe my ramblings above are based on some revelations that God has given me (a deeper level of understanding of scripture then I had before) but I'm still trying to sort it out.
Hi,
The letters of Paul are only written to the saved. To them only belongs the first resurrection so only the first resurrection is spoken of in 1Thess4.
Paul calls them “brethren” and speaks of those who are “asleep in Jesus”
We would be fools to ignore the salvation offered in Jesus and live in hope for the unexpected and unknown mercy of God for those who face judgement after the second resurrection.Hi,
Rev Lees opinion that there will be only one resurrection shows one thing clearly.
It is possible to use scripture to prove whatever you choose to believe.
All you have to do is quote some scriptures and ignore or cast doubt on some others or claim they are confusing or allegorical.
Quote a few ancient and some modern scholar's opinions that support your view and it will look pretty convincing. Better still label another view as an”ism” or heresy and truth will seem to be on your side.
However such a person is setting himself up as greater than scripture. They make themselves greater than the Spirit of God who wrote scripture through men.
They are no longer standing on the foundation rock of scripture but on the shifting sand of tradition, the same basis of belief of those who killed Christ..
They will find plenty of followers but it is the Lord we should follow and his words we should abide in.Rev 20.4 f is not confusing but very plain and shows two resurrections separated by the millenial Kingdom of Christ on earth.
Two deaths, two resurrections.
You cannot have a second death unless you have someone to be raised from the first death in order to experience it.
The rest of the dead lived not till after the thousand years…
The first resurrection is one unto glorification – no possiblity exists for those who partake of it to experience the second death.
The second resurrection is unto judgement and you have two possibilities – the right or left hand.
The true believer has passed from death to life and cannot come into judgement. This would suggest to me that their position in the first resurrection is assured.Hi Malcolm,
Branches that remain in the vine cannot be thrown in the fire.The firstborn from the dead has shown us the way.
Hi,
Acts 1.2
“until the day he was taken up, after he had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles he had chosen. To these he also presented himselfalive after his suffering, nby many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of 40 days, and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God”
2.32
“This Jesus God raised up again to which we are all witnesses”
Was there not 500 also who witnessed that the man Jesus who died had risen.
He still had wounds.
Were they still painful?
Was that one of the reasons he told Mary Magdelene not to cling to him?Hi,
Are there two resurrections and is the last unto eternal life[sheep], or the lake of fire[goats]?Technically one half of the first resurrection has already occured when Jesus rose from the grave and led captivity captive, hasn't it? He led the souls that were at one time imprisoned by the enemy through the gates (PS24:7-10) the everlasting doors – didn't he?
Hi Malcolm,
Yes Jesus IS “the resurrection and the life”.
He is the “firstborn of the dead”
The first resurrection has begun and now we join “the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven”[Heb 12.22]
When Jesus had died but was made alive in the Spirit he made proclamation to the spirits[?souls] in prison[?Sheol]but it does not say he took them with him in 1Peter 3 does it? Did he?Well to put it in perspective Nick, if he raised up many of the dead that slept in the earth, and these were seen of many, then what happened after this? they went back down to wait some more? (Ps 68:18)
You have ascended on high, You have led captive Your captives;
You have received gifts among men,
Even among the rebellious also, that the LORD God may dwell there.This reads to me as a sequence – ascending up – leading captive his captives and recieving gifts to send back to men.
Ephesians 4:8
Therefore it says,
“WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH,
HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES,
AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN.”When he rose up he took captives with him, the souls of those faithful under the Law of Moses who had been held captive until then.
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