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Good question, Nick. The Bible is not a work in metaphysics and so does not give a solid, clear working out of the Trinity. One traditional Trinitarian model is to say God is like the Sun, and the Son and Spirit like the sunlight. There has never been a time when there wasn’t sunlight. Hence, Christ has always existed. Still, there is a problem with saying Christ is the Son, in that implies two separate distinct egos and also that the Father is the Boss of bosses, the principum and fons of all the rest, God, strictly speaking, with the Son as a mere lieutenant, a lesser divinity, send to do the Father’s bidding. As Calvin said, the Father did not come down here, but he who was sent by him: the Father did not suffer and die, but he who was sent by him. Such subrodinationism, of course, undermines the whole idea of the Trinity. That’s why I have said and will say that the Trinity is a very problematic doctrine.
Hi Hogshead,
Yes trinity is pure confusion.
Know that God anointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit.
Know that he was led by the Spirit who spoke and worked through him.
People who do not understand this think that Jesus was talking about himself.
hogshead1;
Yes, definitely. The passage is saying the Word is God.
Many in the church are taught to misunderstand those words for “the word” is not the Christ Person and “is” is not saying what kind he is but instead it is describing the qualities of the word.
The teaching of that there was three persons of the one God kind did not exist in the first century but arose afterwards possibly due to the imperial cults that existed among the Gentile nations. Because of its lack the Jews that John writes to would not interpret the words to mean the Christ is the one God kind.
In short we have to put aside the things we have been taught and look at Scripture from the eyes of those the words are addressed to.
hogshead1,
Should it not read “the Word was in the form of God”?
Perhaps I misunderstood you as these words are the equivalent of saying “the word has the qualities of God”.
Hi Hoghead1,
I’ve been studying the Bible for over 40 years, and have learned much in that time.
I’m interested is sharing new information that people have yet to consider,
rather than going over the same old tired arguments without resolution.
Read through my posts on this thread and tell me what you think:____________
God bless
Ed JHello, Kirwin,
I’m not quite sure I understand what you are getting at. Jn. makes clear the Word is God.
I tis true that no one comes to Scripture, with a blank mind. Everyone reads Scripture through a lens, generally their church’s teachings.
The term “person,” as used in the early Trinitarian formulas does not mean “person” in the same sense we use this term today.
Hello, Ed,
I have limited time and cannot read through all you previous posts. Wish I cold, but I can’t. If there are some particular ones you want me to look at, I would be happy to do so.
Hello, Nick,
Are you saying Christ is not God? As I said before, the Bible is ambiguous here. Some passages clearly state that he is; others that he isn’t.
Hi hoghead1,
I say what Jesus Christ said-that he is the Son of God.
Should we argue with him?
Before he was taken up he said he was returning to his God and our God.
Jn 20.17
Do you disagree?
Hi, Nick,
We need to be clearer on what he means by son of God. And that isn’t easy. In some biblical passages, Christ is equated with God and presents himself that way. In others, Christ presents a subordinationalistic view of himself, which isn’t Trinitarian. That’s one of the major dilemma of the Trinity.
Hi hoghead,
There is no trinity spoken of in scripture.
Should we add this human concept?
If you understand that is all about the Spirit of God using human vessels then there is no confusion.
2 Tim 2.20f
Hi, Nick,
I am well aware that the term “Trinity” is not used in Scripture . I am also aware of the fact that the Trinitarian doctrines are largely extra-biblical in nature and use terms foreign to Scripture. Nevertheless, Scripture implies a Trinity. I have no trouble applying human concepts. As I mentioned in a previous post, I view al knowledge as analogous knowledge. We have to generalize from the familiar to the unfamiliar. Since what we know best is human existence, there must be some genuine likeness or uniformity between ourselves and God, or we haven’t got an inkling what’s going on.
Hi hoghead1,
If you are taught trinity then it is natural when you read scripture to see this concept implied.
But the fact that it is nowhere written should cause us to drop it completely.
It divides what are not divided. God is one with His Spirit.
It makes several gods but God is one.
babylonian confusion.
But ,Nick, as I readily explained, the Trinity is strongly implied in Scripture. So for me,one really can’t just up and drop it. I cannot dismiss the whole Trinity, with a simple stroke of teh pen. Nor can endorse all Trinitarian formulations, with a simple stroke of the pen. I appreciate that the doctrine is very complex, that we are dealing with a very complicated issue here. I am convinced the problems all have to do with the Hellenic concept of God and God’s perfections, which classical theism used.
Hi hoghead1,
It depends who you serve.
The Lord God wrote the scriptures through men.2 peter
The speculations of men are carnal.
True, Scripture was written by men, i.e., males, and therefore reflects their prejudices. However, all we have is human thinking and speculation. There is no way for us t step outside our humanness. So carnal it may be, human wisdom is all we have and therefore cannot be completely invalid.
Hi hoghead 1,
Not so.
If man is our hope we are lost.
Pay attention to scripture as Jesus did.
We are given tools from scripture to establish truth .
Try 2 Cor 13.1 and the verses in scripture that say the same thing.
Thy word is a lamp to my feet
ps 119
hogshead,
Simple Definition of be
—used to indicate the identity of a person or thing
—used to describe the qualities of a person or thing
—used to indicate the condition of a person or thing
Many teach that was means that the word has the identity of God but doing so there reveal there ignorance Hebrew monotheism. No devout and knowledge believe would see the word being identified as God nor the condition of being God. Instead such an individual would see that the word has the qualities of God. It is a teaching that was already among the people of God in the first century.
There are Trinitarians that acknowledge this but also claim being the one true God is among those qualities. That is because they have been taught that and do not consider the unwritten context of the beliefs of the people of that time. I could claim that Jimi Hendrix is the god of guitars and all I mean is that he exceeds all others in playing them. In conclusion the qualities of the word do not include being the one true God.
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