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Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2009,13:29) Hi TC,
Adam was the first.
The first man
Nick,Adam was the first. Okay. Fine. You still prove nothing seeing as he is not ALSO the last. Man cannot be both first and last. Jesus' claim is far beyond anything only a man can be.
TC27
Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 09 2009,09:20) Jodi, The first and last acts of a person have nothing to do with the statement by Jesus that he is the first and the last. Everyone has a first and last something. However, we cannot claim to BE the first and the last. Having a first and last act is completely different then BEING the first and the last.
TC27
Yes good point.But I think that you missed a significant point of mine, which was that Jesus did NOTHING of himself, so therefore if Jesus was the first and last it was through God, and not by himself.
What was in the beginning with God? Scripture says that God and His Spirit of Wisdom were in the beginning. We are also told that the promise of eternal life was in the beginning. We are also shown that Jesus the man born of a woman pre-existed in the mind of God, as a plan. We also know that Jesus is the way to eternal life, so in Jesus by God and His plan, Jesus is the first and last.
What Jesus was not was a pre-existing son who created the heavens and the earth IMO.
Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 09 2009,09:43) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2009,13:29) Hi TC,
Adam was the first.
The first man
Nick,Adam was the first. Okay. Fine. You still prove nothing seeing as he is not ALSO the last. Man cannot be both first and last. Jesus' claim is far beyond anything only a man can be.
TC27
Hey there,I think it would be helpful if I knew what you believe Jesus saying he is the first and last, means.
Thanks, Jodi
Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 08 2009,13:39) Consistently we are shown that it was YHWH who created the heavens and the earth. Proverbs shows us that it was by His Spirit of Wisdom He created. Scripture also shows us that Jesus was a plan and that eternal salvation was also a plan from the beginning. Jesus is the beginning and the end, he is the way to eternal life, the beginning of eternal life and the end of death. He is the beginning of all things made new and the end of what was.
He was in the beginning with God known to be that which would come into the world and fulfill God's purpose, that righteous men would dwell on earth. God would not have created heaven and earth in the first place, if He hadn't known what He could accomplish in all men, through the ONE MAN.
KJV Verse Count
Hebrew Word: Hwhy
Transliterated Word: Y@hovah
Book to Display: Deuteronomy
Verse Count: 438De 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
2Ki 19:15 And Hezekiah prayed before the LORD, and said, O LORD God of Israel, which dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; thou hast made heaven and earth.
2Ch 2:12 Huram said moreover, Blessed be the LORD God of Israel, that made heaven and earth, who hath given to David the king a wise son, endued with prudence and understanding, that might build an house for the LORD, and an house for his kingdom.
Isa 37:16 O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.
Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the
heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
YHWH, the Father of Jesus Christ, made the heavens and earth through the foreknowledge of Jesus.
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Who is the Son described in Hebrews? The God Son? No, NO! The Son that God made the world for and through was the Son that died on the cross, the man born of a woman of the seed of David.
TT, I believe you understand the following out of context brother,
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” 10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; 12 Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.” 13 But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?
Scripture tells us over and over again that it was YHWH who made the heavens and earth, He ALONE and no one else. So what is verse 10 telling us?
Well first let's notice that even Jesus says that God is our maker,
Mark 10:5 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. 6 But from the beginning of the creation, God 'made them male and female.' 7 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8 and the two shall become one flesh'; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh.
again in,
Mark 13:19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.
Jesus did not say that HE MADE THEM, he said God made them.
Just prior to Hebrews 10 we are told in verse 9 that Jesus loved righteousness and hated wickedness and he was anointed with the oil of gladness more then his companions. Clearly the scriptures are not speaking of a pre-existing spirit son but of Jesus born of a woman when it says, “And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.What beginning is the scripture referring to?
Lu 4:18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
John 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” 25 Then they said to Him, “Who are You?” And Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him.” 27 They did not understand that He spoke to them of the Father. 28 Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. 29 And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him.” 30 As He spoke these words, many believed in Him.
John 15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. 27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.
IMO the scriptures make it clear that God created the heavens and the earth by His foreknowledge of Jesus Christ. The heavens and earth were created for the future work that Jesus would do through God's Spirit working in him.
Think about TT, do you really think that the significance of Hebrews 10 is to reveal something different from what we've been told throughout the bible?
Is the scripture's purpose to reveal to us that it was actually Jesus who formed the mountains, that he created the stars?
I believe the scripture is telling us that from the beginning of his anointing with the Spirit when he began to preach, he was laying down the foundation of God's truth and God's way on earth, and that the works of his hands were of the heavens, meaning they came directly from God.
Notice what it says after verse 10,
11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; 12 Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.” 13 But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enem
ies Your footstool”?The work of Jesus was of the Father. Jesus followed his Fathers will, he walked in God's ways perfectly. Unlike all prophets and messengers who have perished, he was the only one that did not see corruption, but was raised from the dead.
Ephesians 3:9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord,
1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life— 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us— 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.
Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.' 22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know– 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him: 'I foresaw the Lord always before my face, For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken. 26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad; Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope. 27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. 28 You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.' 29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at My right hand, 35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.” ' 36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
There is no message that David knew of a spirit son coming to give up his godhood and be a man with his blood. That is NOT what the scriptures say.
Romans 15:7 Therefore receive one another, just as Christ also received us, to the glory of God. 8 Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers, 9 and that the Gentiles might glorify God for His mercy, as it is written: “For this reason I will confess to You among the Gentiles, And sing to Your name.” 10 And again he says: “Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people!” 11 And again: “Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles! Laud Him, all you peoples!” 12 And again, Isaiah says: “There shall be a root of Jesse; And He who shall rise to reign over the Gentiles, In Him the Gentiles shall hope.”
The prophesy was always a man coming to earth, not a spirit son.
Jodi,In Colossians 1, Hebrews 1, and Isaiah 48, it is told to us that Jesus created the heavens and the earth.
Colossians 1:15-20:
Quote 15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Hebrews 1:10
Quote 10He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.Isaiah 48: 12-16
Quote 12 “Listen to me, O Jacob,
Israel, whom I have called:
I am he;
I am the first and I am the last.
13 My own hand laid the foundations of the earth,
and my right hand spread out the heavens;
when I summon them,
they all stand up together.14 “Come together, all of you, and listen:
Which of the idols has foretold these things?
The LORD's chosen ally
will carry out his purpose against Babylon;
his arm will be against the Babylonians. [a]15 I, even I, have spoken;
yes, I have called him.
I will bring him,
and he will succeed in his mission.16 “Come near me and listen to this:
“From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret;
at the time it happens, I am there.”
And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me,
with his Spirit.TC27
Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 08 2009,13:50) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 09 2009,09:43) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2009,13:29) Hi TC,
Adam was the first.
The first man
Nick,Adam was the first. Okay. Fine. You still prove nothing seeing as he is not ALSO the last. Man cannot be both first and last. Jesus' claim is far beyond anything only a man can be.
TC27
Hey there,I think it would be helpful if I knew what you believe Jesus saying he is the first and last, means.
Thanks, Jodi
Jodi,Jesus being the first and the last means that he existed in the beginning with God and that he will exist forever into eternity at the right hand of God. In the beginning God created and so did Jesus. This means that Jesus existed in the beginning. God says, “let us.”
Genesis 1:26-27
Quote 26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” 27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.TC27
So as said before everyone has a first and last deed,
Re 1:11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”
Re 1:17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
Re 2:8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write,'These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life: 9 I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” '
Re 22:12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
Joh 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
1 Timothy 2: 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men–the testimony given in its proper time.
Jesus is the way to salvation from the first person to the last person. Jesus told John, “do not be afraid I am the first and the last.”
Jesus has been given by God the power and authority to judge every man, from the first person to the last person. It is the God given task of Jesus to perform or act as the judge of every person. This is what I believe is meant when Jesus is said to be the first and the last.
Matthew 19:23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” 26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” 27 Then Peter answered and said to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You. Therefore what shall we have?” 28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.
Mathew 20:12 saying, 'These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.' 13 But he answered one of them and said, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?' 16 So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.”
Luke 13:23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?” And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know you, where you are from,' 26 then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.' 27 But He will say, 'I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.' 28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out. 29 They will come from the east and the west, from the north and the south, and sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And indeed there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last.”
Let's make a distinction here. Jesus through God became our savior and way to life, from the first person to the last person Jesus is EVERY man's savior. As well, Jesus BY God, is our judge from the first person to the last person. YHWH on the other hand is RULER over every man. YHWH from the beginning of time has established every kingdom and has brought down every kingdom. There is NO other God, He alone has the power to CHOOSE the events that will occur in the world. He created the heavens and the earth, He brings forth the rain and the drought.
Isaiah 41:1 “Keep silence before Me, O coastlands, And let the people renew their strength! Let them come near, then let them speak; Let us come near together for judgment. 2 “Who raised up one from the east? Who in righteousness called him to His feet? Who gave the nations before him, And made him rule over kings? Who gave them as the dust to his sword, As driven stubble to his bow? 3 Who pursued them, and passed safely By the way that he had not gone with his feet? 4 Who has performed and done it, Calling the generations from the beginning? ' I, the Lord, am the first; And with the last I am He.' “ 5 The coastlands saw it and feared, The ends of the earth were afraid; They drew near and came. 6 Everyone helped his neighbor, And said to his brother, “Be of good courage!” 7 So the craftsman encouraged the goldsmith; He who smooths with the hammer inspired him who strikes the anvil, Saying, “It is ready for the soldering”; Then he fastened it with pegs, That it might not totter. 8 “But you, Israel, are My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, The descendants of Abraham My friend.
Isaiah 44:1 “Yet hear now, O Jacob My servant, And Israel whom I have chosen. 2 Thus says the Lord who made you And formed you from the womb, who will help you: 'Fear not, O Jacob My servant; And you, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen. 3 For I will pour water on him who is thirsty, And floods on the dry ground; I will pour My Spirit on your descendants, And My blessing on your offspring; 4 They will spring up among the grass Like willows by the watercourses.' 5 One will say, 'I am the Lord's'; Another will call himself by the name of Jacob; Another will write with his hand, 'The Lord's,' And name himself by the name of Israel. 6 “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men–the testimony given in its proper time.
1Cor. 8:5 even as there are many Gods and many Lords, nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through
Whom all is.Because in Revelation Jesus is called the first and the last, that does not mean he is the first and last of whom is spoken of in the OT. Shall we just declare things and NOT consider context? Shall we just declare things and ignore the scriptures of which make that declaration an impossibility?
Jodi Lee said:
Quote Consistently we are shown that it was YHWH who created the heavens and the earth. Proverbs shows us that it was by His Spirit of Wisdom He created. Scripture also shows us that Jesus was a plan and that eternal salvation was also a plan from the beginning. Jodi,
In Hebrews 1 the Father addresses the Son saying,Quote In the beginning YOU laid the foundation of the earth. And the heavens are the work of YOUR HANDS (Heb. 1:10) The Father was speaking to the Son. And in Isaiah 48:13 the One who calls Himself the First and the Last says,
Quote MY HAND laid the foundation of the earth. MY RIGHT HAND stretched out the heavens Then He goes on to say that He was sent by the Lord God and His Spirit (vs. 16). You have not successfully proved your theories.
thinker
Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 09 2009,09:55) Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 08 2009,13:50) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 09 2009,09:43) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2009,13:29) Hi TC,
Adam was the first.
The first man
Nick,Adam was the first. Okay. Fine. You still prove nothing seeing as he is not ALSO the last. Man cannot be both first and last. Jesus' claim is far beyond anything only a man can be.
TC27
Hey there,I think it would be helpful if I knew what you believe Jesus saying he is the first and last, means.
Thanks, Jodi
Jodi,Jesus being the first and the last means that he existed in the beginning with God and that he will exist forever into eternity at the right hand of God. In the beginning God created and so did Jesus. This means that Jesus existed in the beginning. God says, “let us.”
Genesis 1:26-27
Quote 26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” 27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.TC27
Your speculations are not proof.The Us could be any immortal creature of whom God made prior to our creation, who dwells with Him in heaven. God's angels are God's sons and they are of God's character. Only the righteous dwell in God's presence, and those of righteousness are of the image of God.
God's angels we know carry out God's word. They were in the beginning with God. What makes you think that the US in Genesis were not the angels?
Quote (thethinker @ July 06 2009,01:30) To All,
Let our non-trinitarian friends explain the following from Isaiah 48:12-16:12: “Listen to Me O Jacob, and Israel My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.
13: Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand up together.
14: All of you, assemble yourselves and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; He shall do His great pleasure in Babylon, and His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15: I, even I have spoken; yes, I have called him, I have brought him and his way shall prosper.
16: Come near to Me, hear this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the LORD GOD and His Spirit have sent Me.”Commenting on the phrase “The Lord God and His Spirit has sent Me” Alan Cairns says this,
Quote The context after verse 12 shows that the speaker is the Messiah. He is clearly a divine person because in verse 12 he says, “I am he; I am the first, I am also the last….” In verse 16 He says, “From the time it was, there am I and the Lord God and His Spirit has sent Me.” What stronger evidence could be given on three divine persons, distinct from one another as to their personal properties, in unity of the divine essence? (Dictionary of Theological terms, Alan Cairns, Ambassador Emerald International, p. 496) Anti-trinitarians deny that Christ is the First and the Last. Yet the One who calls Himself the First and the Last in verse 12 says that He created the heavens and the earth (vs. 13) and that He was sent by the Lord God and His Spirit (vs. 16).
Therefore, Messiah is the First and the Last.
thinker
Hi thethinker:The following verse will explain to whom the LORD is referring in the last verse:
Quote ]All of you, assemble yourselves and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; He shall do His great pleasure in Babylon, and His arm shall be against the Chaldeans. The foregoing verse is speaking about Cyrus.
And in Verse 16, it is Cyrus speaking that the LORD GOD AND HIS SPIRIT HAS sent him.
No, sorry, no “trinity”.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (thethinker @ July 09 2009,10:46) Jodi Lee said: Quote Consistently we are shown that it was YHWH who created the heavens and the earth. Proverbs shows us that it was by His Spirit of Wisdom He created. Scripture also shows us that Jesus was a plan and that eternal salvation was also a plan from the beginning. Jodi,
In Hebrews 1 the Father addresses the Son saying,Quote In the beginning YOU laid the foundation of the earth. And the heavens are the work of YOUR HANDS (Heb. 1:10) The Father was speaking to the Son. And in Isaiah 48:13 the One who calls Himself the First and the Last says,
Quote MY HAND laid the foundation of the earth. MY RIGHT HAND stretched out the heavens Then He goes on to say that He was sent by the Lord God and His Spirit (vs. 16). You have not successfully proved your theories.
thinker
So Jesus saying that God created the heavens and the earth isn't enough to convince you?The vast number of scriptures that says that YHWH did it, and the one that says HE ALONE, no one esle, does not convince you?
How about the following
Acts 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; 23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.' 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”
The above scripture is clear proof that it was YHWH our Almighty Father who created the heavens and earth. Clear Scripture shows that it was by His Spirit of Wisdom that it was created.
Clear Scripture shows that the plan of eternal salvation was in the beginning with God. Clear scripture shows that it was the MAN Jesus born of a woman with the blood of David, that FULFILLED that promise.Hebrews 1:10 In the beginning YOU laid the foundation of the earth. And the heavens are the work of YOUR HANDS
Who is the YOU TT? Nothing in scripture even speaks of a pre-existing son. Hebrews is speaking of the MAN who died on the cross. The MAN who was anointed. The MAN who then received eternal life. You need to put that FACT into your understanding. When we keep all the facts strait, the above scripture should be clear and consistent with other scriptures.
IMO you are denying scriptures, whereas I believe my understanding keeps all words of God true.Are you to quick to forget Hebrews 1:2 which says, “has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;'
The work that God foreknew Jesus would accomplish, is what made God create the heavens and the earth in the first place.
Colossians 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
All things were created through and for WHOM? A spirit son?
No the MAN Jesus who died on the cross.17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. 21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight–
TT, do you deny that God in the beginning had a plan to make man holy? TT, do you deny that plan included the man Jesus who was born of the seed of David?
As well how to you deal with the fact that Jesus was resurrected as an incorruptible man, and not a god, and that Jesus is returning as a man?
Mt 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
Jesus is a man, not a God who became a man, and then went back to being God. He was a man raised from the dead and he became an incorruptible MAN.
Mt 25:13Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.
Mt 25:31“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory
John 5:26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth–those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
Joh 13:31 So, when he had gone out, Jesus said, “Now the Son of Man is glorified, and God is glorified in Him.
Ac 7:56 and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”
Quote (thethinker @ July 09 2009,10:46) Jodi Lee said: Quote Consistently we are shown that it was YHWH who created the heavens and the earth. Proverbs shows us that it was by His Spirit of Wisdom He created. Scripture also shows us that Jesus was a plan and that eternal salvation was also a plan from the beginning. Jodi,
In Hebrews 1 the Father addresses the Son saying,Quote In the beginning YOU laid the foundation of the earth. And the heavens are the work of YOUR HANDS (Heb. 1:10) The Father was speaking to the Son. And in Isaiah 48:13 the One who calls Himself the First and the Last says,
Quote MY HAND laid the foundation of the earth. MY RIGHT HAND stretched out the heavens Then He goes on to say that He was sent by the Lord God and His Spirit (vs. 16). You have not successfully proved your theories.
thinker
Jesus died and paid for the sins of every man from the first to the last.Is that MY theory, or is that a biblical fact?
Jesus has been given power and authority by the Father to judge all men, from the first to the last.
Is that MY theory, or is that a biblical fact?
Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 09 2009,12:29) Quote (thethinker @ July 09 2009,10:46) Jodi Lee said: Quote Consistently we are shown that it was YHWH who created the heavens and the earth. Proverbs shows us that it was by His Spirit of Wisdom He created. Scripture also shows us that Jesus was a plan and that eternal salvation was also a plan from the beginning. Jodi,
In Hebrews 1 the Father addresses the Son saying,Quote In the beginning YOU laid the foundation of the earth. And the heavens are the work of YOUR HANDS (Heb. 1:10) The Father was speaking to the Son. And in Isaiah 48:13 the One who calls Himself the First and the Last says,
Quote MY HAND laid the foundation of the earth. MY RIGHT HAND stretched out the heavens Then He goes on to say that He was sent by the Lord God and His Spirit (vs. 16). You have not successfully proved your theories.
thinker
Jesus died and paid for the sins of every man from the first to the last.Is that MY theory, or is that a biblical fact?
Jesus has been given power and authority by the Father to judge all men, from the first to the last.
Is that MY theory, or is that a biblical fact?
Jesus says:John 8:14-16 (King James Version)
15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
John 5:29-31 (King James Version)
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Luke 12:13-15 (King James Version)
13And one of the company said unto him, Master, speak to my brother, that he divide the inheritance with me.
14And he said unto him, Man, who made me a judge or a divider over you?
Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 08 2009,14:53) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 09 2009,09:55) Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 08 2009,13:50) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 09 2009,09:43) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2009,13:29) Hi TC,
Adam was the first.
The first man
Nick,Adam was the first. Okay. Fine. You still prove nothing seeing as he is not ALSO the last. Man cannot be both first and last. Jesus' claim is far beyond anything only a man can be.
TC27
Hey there,I think it would be helpful if I knew what you believe Jesus saying he is the first and last, means.
Thanks, Jodi
Jodi,Jesus being the first and the last means that he existed in the beginning with God and that he will exist forever into eternity at the right hand of God. In the beginning God created and so did Jesus. This means that Jesus existed in the beginning. God says, “let us.”
Genesis 1:26-27
Quote 26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” 27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.TC27
Your speculations are not proof.The Us could be any immortal creature of whom God made prior to our creation, who dwells with Him in heaven. God's angels are God's sons and they are of God's character. Only the righteous dwell in God's presence, and those of righteousness are of the image of God.
God's angels we know carry out God's word. They were in the beginning with God. What makes you think that the US in Genesis were not the angels?
Jodi,You forget that he said in OUR image. We are not made in the image of other creatures.
TC27
Jodi lee said:
Quote The Us could be any immortal creature of whom God made prior to our creation, who dwells with Him in heaven. God's angels are God's sons and they are of God's character. Only the righteous dwell in God's presence, and those of righteousness are of the image of God. God's angels we know carry out God's word. They were in the beginning with God. What makes you think that the US in Genesis were not the angels?
Jodi Lee,
Please give chapter and verse which says that angels existed prior to creation and prior to the creation of man. Your view implies that we were created in the image of angels. The Scriptures do not support this idea. Commenting on Genesis 1:26 Leupold says this:Quote God acts independently without any angelic counsel. Besides, it must be considered that neither here nor by the time 3:22 is reached has anything been revealed about the creation of angels. If this remark included angels, man would be in an image which blurred the divine and the angelic into one. The old testament does not muddle such important concepts (Leupold on the Old Testament, Genesis, vol. 1, p.87, Baker Book House) You need first to show from scripture that angels existed before the creation of man which you cannot. The Bible does not tell us on what day they were created. Then the burden falls upon you to explain how we can be created in the image of angels when the scripture explicitly says we are created in the image of God. Leupold is correct in saying that the image is not “blurred into one.”
Quote Let US make man in OUR image and after OUR likeness. So God created man in HIS OWN IMAGE. In the IMAGE OF GOD He created them. I don't foresee you overcoming these difficulties.
thinker
Jodi………..You have rightly said it Sis, God the Father has applied Jesus sacrifice to all mankind. After all He is the Father of us all and as a True Father He is full of forgiveness and Mercy, and Yet does not change what is right and what is wrong.
Exo 34:6…> And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, long suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgressions and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty:,
The (ONLY) true source of (TRUE) Righteousness, there is non like HIM, not willing that any parish, and our Brother Jesus through the power granted him from the Father, has made that applicable for all. All who call on the name of the LORD shall be SAVED, as scripture says, yet as by fire (judgments). IMO
peace and love to you and yours Jodi………………………..gene
Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 10 2009,02:06) Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 08 2009,14:53) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 09 2009,09:55) Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 08 2009,13:50) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 09 2009,09:43) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2009,13:29) Hi TC,
Adam was the first.
The first man
Nick,Adam was the first. Okay. Fine. You still prove nothing seeing as he is not ALSO the last. Man cannot be both first and last. Jesus' claim is far beyond anything only a man can be.
TC27
Hey there,I think it would be helpful if I knew what you believe Jesus saying he is the first and last, means.
Thanks, Jodi
Jodi,Jesus being the first and the last means that he existed in the beginning with God and that he will exist forever into eternity at the right hand of God. In the beginning God created and so did Jesus. This means that Jesus existed in the beginning. God says, “let us.”
Genesis 1:26-27
Quote 26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” 27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.TC27
Your speculations are not proof.The Us could be any immortal creature of whom God made prior to our creation, who dwells with Him in heaven. God's angels are God's sons and they are of God's character. Only the righteous dwell in God's presence, and those of righteousness are of the image of God.
God's angels we know carry out God's word. They were in the beginning with God. What makes you think that the US in Genesis were not the angels?
Jodi,You forget that he said in OUR image. We are not made in the image of other creatures.
TC27
Image means likeness. We are too made in the image of other creatures. Anything we have in common with another creature makes us have likeness with that creature. God made animals reproduce after their own kind, thus God made us in likeness to other creatures who have that same ability.Man needs to be of likeness to God's righteous character. Jesus was, and therefore if we walk in righteousness we are of likeness to both God and Jesus. Angels that dwell in God's abode are righteous, and therefore we are in likeness to them as well.
Ge 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Eph 5:1 Therefore be imitators of God as dear children.
John 5:19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
John 8:28 Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things
1Pe 2:21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:
John 17:20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
Jesus exemplified God's righteous character, God's angels exemplify God's righteous character. Anyone who exemplifies God's righteous character exists in the image of God.
As well, we see that God is a creator and a designer and that He likes to accomplish. These things are in our character as well, so it could be said in that way we are made in the image of God. You don't think that angels have a likeness with God, that we too share?
Hi Jodi,
So we can become righteous just by imitation?
That facile concept underlies most false religion.Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 09 2009,09:59) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 10 2009,02:06) Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 08 2009,14:53) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 09 2009,09:55) Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 08 2009,13:50) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 09 2009,09:43) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 08 2009,13:29) Hi TC,
Adam was the first.
The first man
Nick,Adam was the first. Okay. Fine. You still prove nothing seeing as he is not ALSO the last. Man cannot be both first and last. Jesus' claim is far beyond anything only a man can be.
TC27
Hey there,I think it would be helpful if I knew what you believe Jesus saying he is the first and last, means.
Thanks, Jodi
Jodi,Jesus being the first and the last means that he existed in the beginning with God and that he will exist forever into eternity at the right hand of God. In the beginning God created and so did Jesus. This means that Jesus existed in the beginning. God says, “let us.”
Genesis 1:26-27
Quote 26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” 27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.TC27
Your speculations are not proof.The Us could be any immortal creature of whom God made prior to our creation, who dwells with Him in heaven. God's angels are God's sons and they are of God's character. Only the righteous dwell in God's presence, and those of righteousness are of the image of God.
God's angels we know carry out God's word. They were in the beginning with God. What makes you think that the US in Genesis were not the angels?
Jodi,You forget that he said in OUR image. We are not made in the image of other creatures.
TC27
Image means likeness. We are too made in the image of other creatures. Anything we have in common with another creature makes us have likeness with that creature. God made animals reproduce after their own kind, thus God made us in likeness to other creatures who have that same ability.Man needs to be of likeness to God's righteous character. Jesus was, and therefore if we walk in righteousness we are of likeness to both God and Jesus. Angels that dwell in God's abode are righteous, and therefore we are in likeness to them as well.
Ge 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Eph 5:1 Therefore be imitators of God as dear children.
John 5:19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
John 8:28 Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things
1Pe 2:21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:
John 17:20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
Jesus exemplified God's righteous character, God's angels exemplify God's righteous character. Anyone who exemplifies God's righteous character exists in the image of God.
As well, we see that God is a creator and a designer and that He likes to accomplish. These things are in our character as well, so it could be said in that way we are made in the image of God. You don't think that angels have a likeness with God, that we too share?
Jodi,The Bible is making a specific point when it says we were created in the image of God. It is saying that we have a soul, unlike every other living thing. Why would God say that we were to be made in God's image, but not the other creatures? God only said it in reference to humans. So the passage is specifically referring to God when it says that we were created in his image. Therefore, the “us” and the “our” show God's plurality.
TC27
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