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Hi E ,
I use straw men to show you the ridiculous and dangerous conclusions that come from the trinity speculation. If you fear God you may listen.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 12 2005,19:12) Hi E,
So you say you “know” God is triune. You agree you do not understand this but you explain that by saying nobody can understand God. That is circuitous confusion. If you cannot prove something how can you know it so well as you claim. You cannot have it both ways-say you cannot understand God but know God is triune without clear backup from scripture.Where did you find this information? Is it written in the words of The OT? Is it in the teachings of Jesus Christ or the apostles. Or did you derive it yourself. Do you believe it because everyone does, or you denomination taught you? Or have you had special visions or revelation to make this strange matter so clear to you?
If it is a theory derived by you or others from scripture have you thought through the implications? Do you worship and pray to a trinity? If you do not then you should if you really believe in it. Does your theory enable you to have a family reltionship with God or does God become a little more distant, indistinct and different? If you believe there are three in one why are you so free to separate them and even speak of God [which you define as trinity] as the Father?
Does God mind that you redefine Him in a different way from how He presents Himself to the Jews? If you fear God you will consider this matter too. Condescension towards those who study scripture to find truth because they believe that is where truth is to be found does your cause no good.
I believe you did not understand when you replied that Jesus is not the only begotten Son. Did he have a will of his own?-that is surely a sign of separate nature as is the fact he said he had life in himself.
Your bluster suggests you are trying to hide your lack of proof behind it. We agree that scripture does not mention the word trinity even once. Do you believe scripture is the only truly reliable source of truth about God. If so why is scripture so taciturn to reveal something you and millions of others are convinced is true but not revealed about God ?
Again Nick, you are missing the point…. by saying I do not understand the Trinity… now this is crucial…. watch closely…. I am saying that I DO NOT FULLY UNDERSTAND THE TRINITY…. do YOU understand? Do you understand the difference between not understanding something, and not understanding something AT ALL!?!? I say that I do understand the doctrine, to some degree.So this is the claim: I do not claim to fully understand God in His essence…. note the word “fully”…. HOWEVER this does not mean that the Trinity is totally beyond comprehension….. and… once again… look to the very first page of the article you and t8 seem to tout as some kind of rebuttal to Trinitarians… but, on that first page of that very same article you will see, if you even are bothering to read the article you are referring me to…. an adequate basic explanation of the Trinity…. look again… its there…
now here is the really unbelievable part… here you and t8 are, offering an explanation of the Trinity, and here I am saying, look at your own cursory explanation…. yet all the while you and t8 are saying that the Trinity is false because people claim to not be able to explain the doctrine! Now that’s a little more than weird. If it can’t be explained, what are you guys doing it explaining it?
ps, Shark boy and lava girl is great, as long as you are less then 10 years old…
The problem is E, that the trinity theory goes way beyond the teaching of Christ. And we were warned about such teachings.
2Jn 9
“Any one who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ does not have God;the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son”Just as Jesus said in Jn 15.7
'If you abide in me and my words abide in you, ask what you wish and it shall be done for you”
If we wish to remain the the love of God we need to guard against false teachings by abiding in the Word of God.
t8,June wrote:[/quote]
Nick Hassan,
The question I posed to t8 was relavent to this thread, because t8 wrote this in it (emphasis is mine):Quote The point I was making is that nonsense to the reader doesn't make the writing wrong. I used an example of the gospel to prove my point about how one can see something as nonsense and yet it can be the words of life. You got the complete wrong end of the stick. So I have spelled it out for you. But in actual fact the gospel encompasses the truth that Jesus is the son of God. It doesn't encompass that teaching that says that Jesus is God.
I want him to substantiate his assertion.Quote (epistemaniac @ June 13 2005,04:39) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 12 2005,19:12) Hi E,
So you say you “know” God is triune. You agree you do not understand this but you explain that by saying nobody can understand God. That is circuitous confusion. If you cannot prove something how can you know it so well as you claim. You cannot have it both ways-say you cannot understand God but know God is triune without clear backup from scripture.Where did you find this information? Is it written in the words of The OT? Is it in the teachings of Jesus Christ or the apostles. Or did you derive it yourself. Do you believe it because everyone does, or you denomination taught you? Or have you had special visions or revelation to make this strange matter so clear to you?
If it is a theory derived by you or others from scripture have you thought through the implications? Do you worship and pray to a trinity? If you do not then you should if you really believe in it. Does your theory enable you to have a family reltionship with God or does God become a little more distant, indistinct and different? If you believe there are three in one why are you so free to separate them and even speak of God [which you define as trinity] as the Father?
Does God mind that you redefine Him in a different way from how He presents Himself to the Jews? If you fear God you will consider this matter too. Condescension towards those who study scripture to find truth because they believe that is where truth is to be found does your cause no good.
I believe you did not understand when you replied that Jesus is not the only begotten Son. Did he have a will of his own?-that is surely a sign of separate nature as is the fact he said he had life in himself.
Your bluster suggests you are trying to hide your lack of proof behind it. We agree that scripture does not mention the word trinity even once. Do you believe scripture is the only truly reliable source of truth about God. If so why is scripture so taciturn to reveal something you and millions of others are convinced is true but not revealed about God ?
Again Nick, you are missing the point…. by saying I do not understand the Trinity… now this is crucial…. watch closely…. I am saying that I DO NOT FULLY UNDERSTAND THE TRINITY…. do YOU understand? Do you understand the difference between not understanding something, and not understanding something AT ALL!?!? I say that I do understand the doctrine, to some degree.So this is the claim: I do not claim to fully understand God in His essence…. note the word “fully”…. HOWEVER this does not mean that the Trinity is totally beyond comprehension….. and… once again… look to the very first page of the article you and t8 seem to tout as some kind of rebuttal to Trinitarians… but, on that first page of that very same article you will see, if you even are bothering to read the article you are referring me to…. an adequate basic explanation of the Trinity…. look again… its there…
now here is the really unbelievable part… here you and t8 are, offering an explanation of the Trinity, and here I am saying, look at your own cursory explanation…. yet all the while you and t8 are saying that the Trinity is false because people claim to not be able to explain the doctrine! Now that’s a little more than weird. If it can’t be explained, what are you guys doing it explaining it?
ps, Shark boy and lava girl is great, as long as you are less then 10 years old…
Thank you E,
The reason we study and present doctrines such as trinity is to help others. Twelve months ago I did a search on trinity and found this site. The reason was I had been most uncomfortable with the doctrine for some years but found few willing to discuss it with me. It was an apparently non negotiable 'truth' yet no one seemed to be able to explain it or explain why it was held in such awe.
My personal study of scripture showed it was seriously flawed and added confusion. I knew I had been born again into Jesus Christ and the family of God as a son, sharing the Spirit, and yet this doctrine seemed to place God beyond me again. It seemed to put God on a wall like any other pagan icon as an external object rather than the intimate family I had grown to know.
I know how hard it is to question a basic doctrine and so I do try to challenge men to be brave and think outside the square and to dare to believe scripture.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 13 2005,04:10) Hi E ,
I use straw men to show you the ridiculous and dangerous conclusions that come from the trinity speculation. If you fear God you may listen.
The abundance of Old Testament scripture quoted by the Apostles that PROVE that Chist is in compound unity with the Father as YHWH are overwhelming. You have only one of four conclusions to come to.1) The Apostles and Christ were lying about His being YHWH (one “echad” with the Father) according to the scriptures quoted above
2) You are a polytheist or Arian based theology
3) Modalism is correct
4) The Trinity is CorrectSince you shall have NO OTHER GODS before YHWH – and Christ is directly identified as such by the Apostles by their associating Him directly with OT scripture that can ONLY be associated with YHWH, that leaves us with options 3 & 4.
The problems with Modalism are too numerous to go into in this short post, so the only Biblical and proper Chritological view is the orthodox view of the Apostles, The Trinity!
The majority of Christendom agrees, the Trinity is not only biblical and the original doctrine of the Apostles, also that all subsequent heresies that attempt to deny the deity of Christ are in danger, not vice-versa as you suggest.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 13 2005,04:10) Hi E ,
I use straw men to show you the ridiculous and dangerous conclusions that come from the trinity speculation. If you fear God you may listen.
Corrected:The abundance of Old Testament scripture quoted by the Apostles that PROVE that Chist is in compound unity with the Father as YHWH are overwhelming. You have only one of four conclusions to come to.
1) The Apostles and Christ were lying about His being YHWH (one “echad” with the Father) according to the scriptures quoted above
2) You are a polytheist, i.e. Mormonism
3) Modalism is correct
4) The Trinity is CorrectSince you shall have NO OTHER GODS before YHWH – and Christ is directly identified as such by the Apostles by their associating Him directly with OT scripture that can ONLY be associated with YHWH, that leaves us with options 3 & 4.
The problems with Modalism are too numerous to go into in this short post, so the only Biblical and proper Chritological view is the orthodox view of the Apostles, The Trinity!
The majority of Christendom agrees, the Trinity is not only biblical and the original doctrine of the Apostles, also that all subsequent heresies that attempt to deny the deity of Christ are in danger, not vice-versa as you suggest.
Had to correct #2
Quote (Guest @ June 13 2005,13:26) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 13 2005,04:10) Hi E ,
I use straw men to show you the ridiculous and dangerous conclusions that come from the trinity speculation. If you fear God you may listen.
Corrected:The abundance of Old Testament scripture quoted by the Apostles that PROVE that Chist is in compound unity with the Father as YHWH are overwhelming. You have only one of four conclusions to come to.
1) The Apostles and Christ were lying about His being YHWH (one “echad” with the Father) according to the scriptures quoted above
2) You are a polytheist, i.e. Mormonism
3) Modalism is correct
4) The Trinity is CorrectSince you shall have NO OTHER GODS before YHWH – and Christ is directly identified as such by the Apostles by their associating Him directly with OT scripture that can ONLY be associated with YHWH, that leaves us with options 3 & 4.
The problems with Modalism are too numerous to go into in this short post, so the only Biblical and proper Chritological view is the orthodox view of the Apostles, The Trinity!
The majority of Christendom agrees, the Trinity is not only biblical and the original doctrine of the Apostles, also that all subsequent heresies that attempt to deny the deity of Christ are in danger, not vice-versa as you suggest.
Had to correct #2
1)The Spirit of God is the Spirit of Jesus Christ.
2)The Father of Jesus Christ is His Holy Spirit. There is no other Holy Spirit or Ghost.
3)God who is Spirit went into Maria (Mary) and create Himself a body so that his people could see him in the flesh. He created Himself my friend and this is the truth.The Trinity Doctrine is a Pagan believe that can be found in Buddhism and other religions.
Hebr.5:5 “So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee”
Rom.8:9-10 “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.”1Pet.1:11-12 “Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.”
Rev.15:2-4 “nd I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. 3And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. 4Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.”
Mark 12:29 “And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.” And Deut. 6:4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: 5And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. 6And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: 7And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. 8And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. 9And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates”
[/B]Deut 6: 4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD (YHWH) our God is one LORD (YHWH): 5 And thou shalt love the LORD (YHWH) thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
John 14:21 – He who has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me; and he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”
John 14:23 – Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
One Holy Spirit, One Lord Jesus, One God the Father – YHWH is ONE
Quote (Guest @ June 13 2005,12:04) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 13 2005,04:10) Hi E ,
I use straw men to show you the ridiculous and dangerous conclusions that come from the trinity speculation. If you fear God you may listen.
The abundance of Old Testament scripture quoted by the Apostles that PROVE that Chist is in compound unity with the Father as YHWH are overwhelming. You have only one of four conclusions to come to.1) The Apostles and Christ were lying about His being YHWH (one “echad” with the Father) according to the scriptures quoted above
2) You are a polytheist or Arian based theology
3) Modalism is correct
4) The Trinity is CorrectSince you shall have NO OTHER GODS before YHWH – and Christ is directly identified as such by the Apostles by their associating Him directly with OT scripture that can ONLY be associated with YHWH, that leaves us with options 3 & 4.
The problems with Modalism are too numerous to go into in this short post, so the only Biblical and proper Chritological view is the orthodox view of the Apostles, The Trinity!
The majority of Christendom agrees, the Trinity is not only biblical and the original doctrine of the Apostles, also that all subsequent heresies that attempt to deny the deity of Christ are in danger, not vice-versa as you suggest.
Yes FYI,
There were and are no other gods before YHWH. There was no existence of any kind before God because God is eternal. And if by “before” you mean “above” there also has never been any god above YHWH.
No I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of Yahweh as he said he was. All authority was given to him under God by God. Do you have greater authority than he has to make such statements about him?
I think he knew who he was better that we might imagine surely.Hi,
Eph 1.17
” that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him”
So Jesus has a God.
That God is the Father of glory and not Jesus.
God sends His Spirit.Eph 5.5
” For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man,who is an idolater, has an inheritence in the Kingdom of Christ AND God”
They don't seem the same to me.Sll you have proven is that the Father and Son aren't the same person!
Hi DVD,
I do not have to prove the Father is not the Son. Why should I have to prove what is written? Anyone can find these things for themselves by reading the bible. I don't want people to believe a fool like me . I just want them to believe Jesus Christ and what he said about himself. We just have to believe the teachings of Jesus Christ.Nick,
Do you believe this teaching of Jesus?Joh 2
19Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.Who raised Jesus DVD? It is written….. many, many times.
Then read this post in that light and you may grasp it.I asked you a direct question Nick. May I have a direct answer please.
Now, DVD, let me guess. You think that because one scripture, quoted by two fools who wanted Jesus dead, that, looked at in a certain light might suggest Jesus raised himself, compared with about 18 that tell us the Father raised Jesus, is strong evidence for you that Jesus is the Father Himself?
Or am I misjudging your intent here?If you be born of the Spirit – Where is the Fruit?
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