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Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 03 2005,05:43) Hi DVD,
The Spirit of God is the Spirit of the Son is the Holy Spirit. They are not alternatives but the same Spirit who comes from one being and fills another and flows to us ..so not a person.
Are you deliberatly being semantic and evasive?
Can you please tell me the source of the Spirit please, Father or Son?This is a waste of time. Goodbye.
DVD,
But if they are one being, is Jesus not the only begotten Son of the Father? Was he not with God in the beginning? Did he pray to himself? Did the Father die on the cross?Who should I believe ?You or scripture?
Quote (Guest @ June 03 2005,05:48) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 03 2005,05:43) Hi DVD,
The Spirit of God is the Spirit of the Son is the Holy Spirit. They are not alternatives but the same Spirit who comes from one being and fills another and flows to us ..so not a person.
Are you deliberatly being semantic and evasive?
Can you please tell me the source of the Spirit please, Father or Son?
Hi DVD,
Thank you. You have to ask the right question. The source of the Spirit is God. [For clarity God is the Father of Jesus Christ]Joh 14:20
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.Joh 14:23
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.Joh 15:4
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.Galatians 4:6
Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.”2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?Ephesians 3:17
That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,Colossians 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:1 Joh 2:14
I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the Word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.Nick Hassan, can you please explain these verses?
Hi,
All except the last scripture relate to the indwelling Spirit of Christ sent by the Father, and of the Father and Christ to born again [water and the Spirit]believers.
The Romans 8 “Spirit” should be lower case as it applies to the human spirit.
The last applies to the Word-the teachings of Jesus ChristHi DVD:
We don't understand all there is about God [The Father], Christ [the Son] or the holy Spirit of God. But what we do know and understand is that the Father is the Source of EVERYTHING and that includes the Holy Spirit.
We are told that Jesus has eternal life in himself to give, but it is explained that it is the Father who gave him eternal life just as he, the Father, has. The Spirit is that Life. That says to me that the Spirit of Christ originates from the Father.
It is the same Spirit anyhow.
An example in nature, following the Romans 1:20 principle is human genealogy. More specifically, my understanding is that the Mitochondria is a part of the DNA that is passed only from mother to daughters in any given family lineage indefinitely, as long as the women continue to bear daughters.
King David was a man who loved God, and became a standard or template for the Kings of Israel/Judah that they should have a heart like David… and here, God created David.
So the Father chose to let his son have life in himself.
He chose that we should be redeemed through his son…
He says he would send the spirit of his son to those who are Christ's… what emerges to me is that there is a genealogy being established through the second Adam.Also Christ says that the Father gave him us, now if we are Christ's, then shouldn't we bear some unique markings of his nature and character… some traits? And if we bear the traits of Christ who bears the traits of his Father, how is that making him his own Father?
If the Spirit of Christ did not originate from the Father, then where did it come from, particularly if Christ and the Father are the same being as you seem to suggest?
And if the Spirit of Christ did not originate from the Father then we and Christ CANNOT be related to YHWH, a position in which I don't want any of us to be found in. It would in fact suggest that there is another Life Source out there, and that would be a bad can of worms along the lines that t8 quoted concerning useless wranglings or babblings earlier. Let us move on from these elementary things that are at the same time, too lofty for us to understand fully.
Hello WIT:
I sincerely hope you will reconsider your position regarding the Gospel of John. There are many hard sayings in the Bible that challenge every one of us from time to time but that is what the word of God is for, that we be transformed by it and conformed to his will…. and if we didn't struggle at times, then we would have already arrived, wouldn't we?
I don't know, having not set out to investigate this, but I take for granted that the other apostles and Christ himself bore witness to John… and therefore, his testimony is scripture and should be fully embraced without doubt.
All,
Let me clarify my position on the book of John, as many of you seem to be reading much more into what I am saying than what I meant. I have not said that the book of John should be discarded from the bible, or even ignored. I have simply said that it should be approached carefully by using a “second witness” to verify what it seems to be saying. Otherwise, there is a lot of potential for misunderstanding if one does not practice due caution.
For example:
Have you eaten the flesh of Yeshua or drunken his blood lately? If not, according to John 6:53-58, you do not have eternal life. In fact, in the account in John 6, many discples of Yeshua leave him because this was a “hard saying” (John 6:66). Well why would they consider this a “hard saying” if he was merely asking them to drink some wine and eat some bread in remembrance of him like in other scriptures, (or if he was merely asking them to “feed” on the scriptures as Nick has suggested)?In fact, this is the exact passage that Catholics go to when explaining why they believe that they are literally eating the flesh of Yeshua and drinking his blood when observing communion, (i.e. that the bread and wine are miraculously transformed into the actual body and blood of the Messiah before they partake of them.) Well, how do you explain that this is not the meaning of the passage in John 6 without pointing out the fact that no other scripture substantiates that practice? How do you show that Catholics are taking these words too literally without pointing out the obvious symbolism in the other gospel accounts and the fact that this practice does not show up in the book of Acts?
Frankly, I can not see how one can prove that this passage is not literal when looking at the book of John in isolation, and that is the point I was making. There is a lot of figurative language in the book of John that can be taken completely out of context if understood too literally. (See John 16:25 where Yeshua explains that he has been using a lot of figurative language in the book of John.) Therefore, in order to keep from misinterpreting John, I personally try to verify my understandings of that book with other scriptures. That is the point I was trying to make with Artizan007. When Yeshua says that he is the bread come down from heaven or that he came down from heaven, the temptation may be to take those words literally, but if they don’t line up with other scriptures, they need to be understood in a different light.
By the way, the same goes for the book of Revelation. Any serious student of the bible knows that you can not approach the book of Revelation like you would the gospel of Mark. One has to be very careful to compare the contents of that book with other scriptures in order to make sure that one’s understandings from it are correct. Certainly, the gospel of John is rich in wisdom and in truth, but one must bring a scripturally mature mind to it in order to understand the deeper meanings within it.
If you all still think my approach to the book of John is inappropriate, so be it. But, I would be surprised if you all aren’t doing the same thing that I am, at the very least with the passage in John 6.
(By the way, if you are Catholic and see no problem with eating Messiah’s flesh and drinking his blood, please note that you are in violation of principles found in both Testaments. [See Leviticus 17:10-12 and Acts 15:20])
DVD,
If your last post addressed to me was meant to answer the scriptures that I laid out for you in a previous post, then you have missed the point entirely. The scriptures that I posted were not merely exercises in using different titles for Father and Son. They are scriptures that show the New testament writers' understanding that God is a separate being from the Lord Yeshua the Messiah. (Note that the title “Lord” does not mean “God”.) For example, look at the passage in 1 Timothy.
Quote 1 Timothy 5:12
“I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality.”Notice that Paul is appealing to three different witnesses, one of whom is God while the other two are not. This is not just a matter of different titles for Father and Son. This is Paul making a clear distinction between the one he calls God and Yeshua.
But since you are fond of direct questions and direct answers, let us make this matter even simpler. Does your god have a god over him, or is your god the God of all?
I would remind you not to “throw away certain scriptures in favor of your doctrine”, particularly the following two:
Quote Matthew 27:46
“And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, 'Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?' that is, 'My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?'”Revelation 3:12
“He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.”By the way, given how fond you are of quick answers to direct questions, I am surprised that you still have not answered my direct question about who died on the cross. I gave you two choices: Yeshua only, or YHWH. (Or, if you prefer, Jesus only, or God.) You have yet to give me your direct answer.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ June 03 2005,17:18) All, Let me clarify my position on the book of John, as many of you seem to be reading much more into what I am saying than what I meant. I have not said that the book of John should be discarded from the bible, or even ignored. I have simply said that it should be approached carefully by using a “second witness” to verify what it seems to be saying. Otherwise, there is a lot of potential for misunderstanding if one does not practice due caution.
For example:
Have you eaten the flesh of Yeshua or drunken his blood lately? If not, according to John 6:53-58, you do not have eternal life. In fact, in the account in John 6, many discples of Yeshua leave him because this was a “hard saying” (John 6:66). Well why would they consider this a “hard saying” if he was merely asking them to drink some wine and eat some bread in remembrance of him like in other scriptures, (or if he was merely asking them to “feed” on the scriptures as Nick has suggested)?In fact, this is the exact passage that Catholics go to when explaining why they believe that they are literally eating the flesh of Yeshua and drinking his blood when observing communion, (i.e. that the bread and wine are miraculously transformed into the actual body and blood of the Messiah before they partake of them.) Well, how do you explain that this is not the meaning of the passage in John 6 without pointing out the fact that no other scripture substantiates that practice? How do you show that Catholics are taking these words too literally without pointing out the obvious symbolism in the other gospel accounts and the fact that this practice does not show up in the book of Acts?
Frankly, I can not see how one can prove that this passage is not literal when looking at the book of John in isolation, and that is the point I was making. There is a lot of figurative language in the book of John that can be taken completely out of context if understood too literally. (See John 16:25 where Yeshua explains that he has been using a lot of figurative language in the book of John.) Therefore, in order to keep from misinterpreting John, I personally try to verify my understandings of that book with other scriptures. That is the point I was trying to make with Artizan007. When Yeshua says that he is the bread come down from heaven or that he came down from heaven, the temptation may be to take those words literally, but if they don’t line up with other scriptures, they need to be understood in a different light.
By the way, the same goes for the book of Revelation. Any serious student of the bible knows that you can not approach the book of Revelation like you would the gospel of Mark. One has to be very careful to compare the contents of that book with other scriptures in order to make sure that one’s understandings from it are correct. Certainly, the gospel of John is rich in wisdom and in truth, but one must bring a scripturally mature mind to it in order to understand the deeper meanings within it.
If you all still think my approach to the book of John is inappropriate, so be it. But, I would be surprised if you all aren’t doing the same thing that I am, at the very least with the passage in John 6.
(By the way, if you are Catholic and see no problem with eating Messiah’s flesh and drinking his blood, please note that you are in violation of principles found in both Testaments. [See Leviticus 17:10-12 and Acts 15:20])
Hi WIT,
I grew up catholic and shared their hope that receiving communion [said to be the body and blood of Christ from Jn 6] was saving my soul. But the book of John is partly a living parable.
The key is in Jn 6.63
” It is the Spirit who gives life;the flesh profiteth nothing;the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life”So superficially the verses speak of the ” Flesh” of Christ. But her Jesus explains that is not the true meaning. Eating symbols of his flesh do not save us though we are bidden to do so as well in his memory celebrating our brotherly unity in him. It is the Spirit that gives life. The words of Jesus are Spirit. Feeding on the living Word of God is loving and abiding in the Word of God-the Bible.
This is also backed up in the New and the Old Testament.
Deut 8.3
” He humbled you and let you be hungry;and fed you with manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know,that He might make you understand that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by everything that proceeds out of the mouth of the Lord”
which Jesus quoted in Mt 4.4The bible proceeds from the mouth of God.
1Jn 2.24
” As for you let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Father and the Son”Quote (Guest @ June 02 2005,04:50) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 01 2005,10:13) Hi DVD, Thank you for showing us two scriptures that say God raised Jesus. There are more
Acts 2.32, 3.15, 3.26, 4.10, 5.30, 10.40, 13.22, 13.33, 13.34, Rom 4.24, 10.9, 1Cor 6.14, 15.15, 2 Cor 4.14, Coll 2.12.[that's 15 so far]And of course it speaks of 'He' who raised Jesus in 2 Cor 4.14, James 5.21, Eph 1.20
Now raising in the past tense is an action done by another and is shown in Christ
“was raised”
Jn 2.22, 21.14, Rom 7.4, 8.34and as “has been raised”
Rom 6.4, 6.9, 7.4, 1Cor 15.12,13,14,16,17,20 and Coll3.1.Jesus spoke of himself too
“after I have been raised”
Mt 26.32
Mk 14.28So we are left with the prophetic verse in Jn 2.19 quoted by evildoers in Matt 26.61 and 27.40. Jesus was filled with the Spirit of God and prophesied his death and resurrection. It was the Father's Spirit speaking through him in prophecy.
I can think of very few facts as clearly shown in scripture -God raised Jesus.
Nick,John 2
19Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.20Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21But he spake of the temple of his body. 22When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
Please answer 'yes' or 'no' to the following questions:
1. Did Jesus ever make a false claim?
2. Did Jesus claim to raise up this temple in Joh 2:19?
3. Did John verify that Jesus meant the temple of his body in Joh 2:21?
4. Do you believe He did?
Hi DVD,
Isaiah said
” Do not anxiously look about you, for I am your God”
[Is 41.10]
Was Isaiah the God of the Israelites? No God spoke through the prophet sent by Him. Likewise God spoke through His servant Jesus when He said He would raise up His Son and He did.
No lie was ever found in the mouth of Jesus.It is strange that those who oppose us here, also espouse the accusations of the opponents of Jesus at his trial. They also agree with the Pharisees that to say one is a Son of God is to claim equality with God and to be God.
Quote (Guest @ June 03 2005,05:32) OK, I understand Nick. What we must do is ignore the scriptures that contradict our doctrines. I can see no distinction between what you suggest and what WhatIsTrue has done. Our theology must be derived from ALL of scripture not selective parts. I have taken some time and answered you questions, now I will ask one more time for you to reciprocate and answer mine. Im waiting.
No DVD,
You say we should use logic in one of your posts. Well the simplest form of logic is commonsense. If God is God in the Olt Testament why should He turn into part of a trinity in the New Testament just because he introduces us to His Son?Can you not see how illogical that is. And how it is insulting to Him to suggest he can be compared as God to any other being? The Son of God and the other sons of God may bear His image but any image does not equal the original.
Is it not simple commonsense to fear God and not play fast and loose with His definition of Himself? You have abandoned commonsense to search out a few verses that you say oppose several thousand others and build a fanciful theory that insults God. That is the wisdom of the men you are following.
“Come out of her my people lest you suffer for her sin”You quote Tit 2.13 as evidence for trinity. Do you not realise other manuscripts say
” Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God AND OUR saviour ,Christ Jesus.”?
So not a great basis for upturning 4000 years of Revelation is it?Nick.
Do you love Jesus?Quote (Guest @ June 02 2005,05:57) But the scriptures that speak of the resurrection will never harmonise for those who reject Christ as being deity.
Hi DVD,
You say Jesus Christ is A DEITY? What do you mean by that? Do you mean he is a separate God from the Father and both are to be worshipped as equals? Do you worship God or Jesus? Did Jesus tell you to worship him? Surely we should only obey his instructions if we call him “Lord”If you say you worship Jesus is that not idolatry for you because for you he is part of a trinity and not a separate being to be worshipped? Is he not part of your one god so you must worship them together as a trinity and not as separate beings?
I see lots of trinity churches around but no one seems to worship a trinity. They all seem to say they worship Jesus. I have yet to read a church sign that says “Come and worship the trinity here”. Am I blind or is there all sorts of idolatry going on here as surely only the one God is to be worshipped?
Should not the Spirit be worshipped too if you say they are separate beings and can be worshipped as individuals? Where is the proclaimed equality here? Does scripture say we should worship the Spirit? Should we not obey scripture?
Someone is pulling the wool over someones eyes!
Nick.
Do you love Jesus?Have you told Him that lately?
Its a simple question. Have you told Jesus that you love Him lately?
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