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Quote I have news for you. You came into this world too! In fact, we all came into this world at some point or another. (Certainly, you have heard that expression used before.) But none of us pre-existed our human existence. Honestly Nick, you are building mountainous doctrines on the smallest of words. Important scriptural truths are talked about consistently and explicitly throughout. When you can show me scriptures that talk about Yeshua being begotten before the world began, I will listen. Until then, I will stick with the birth that scripture does talk about.
WhatIsTrue,
How do you fit the following scriptures into your belief that Yeshua didn't pre-exist? I apologise that there are so many, but I wanted you to see that there is a reason why people believe that Christ pre-existed. If you can clearly show that all these verses are saying that Christ didn't pre-exist then I will listen to your (or Anthony Buzzards) doctrine.
Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”John 6:38-40
For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' “Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.John 8:58
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.John 3:17
For God did not send (apostello) his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.John 3:12-13
12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.Hi All:
I am not sure where these fit, but here's what I think about the question of when Christ became a Son and who is the Creator:
Of WHEN Christ became a Son, I do not know. But I know he is the Son on whom God has hinged all matters relating to our salvation, and he spoke about God as his Father in a way that predates his earthly experience as do other scriptures, so it leads me to think that we are to think of Him as being a Son BEFORE Mary conceived Him.
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained BEFORE the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
Jhn 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me BEFORE the foundation of the world
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him BEFORE the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Hbr 7:For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,” 3 without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.
Of the Work of Creation:I believe that YHWH is the creator, solely. Out of his resources, which included the Word/Son, he created. It is akin to the salvation process: It is the Father's work but he chose to do it through his Son so that it is by the name of Christ that we are saved to the glory of God the Father.
Christ works with his Father [like parents and children do around the world], and we have become co-laborers with our Father and Brother in the ongoing work. Everybody is busy, even the angels, who are the reapers and executioners of various tasks and I suppose the momentum can only rise until all is fulfilled.
Christ is the HEIR of all things because he is the SON, regardless of when that became a reality, as we have become co-heirs with Christ because prodigals though we were, we have become children of God once again thanks to our Father and our Brother who loved us.
And all these things were ordained before the foundation of the world, so who is to say? Sounds like God knew everyone of us before the foundation of the world and can still work within and outside the boundaries of time.
What is certain is that the Son and the Father are NOT the Same.
I still have two areas that are unresolved for me regarding this area of study b/n whether or not the Father and the son are the same [not that I have any doubt that they are not, but I would like to clarify it scripturally], and perhaps someone has insight to share with us, and that is: The Alpha & Omega and First & Last titles. I suspect that there is a translation problem in Isaiah. I have ran into a couple that I'll like to share at a later date for discussion.
Jhn 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
Jhn 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Jhn 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
1Cr 16:10 Now if Timotheus come, see that he may be with you without fear: for he worketh the work of the Lord, as I also [do].
t8,
Quote To WhatIsTrue, Quote (WhatIsTrue @ June 01 2005,15:35)
T8,I really wish that you would stop misusing that verse in Proverbs. Throughout the Hebrew scriptures, Israel is called God's son, His firstborn.
Do you really wish that, or is it your pride speaking?
Did you even get the point I was making? Do you understand that YHWH called Israel His son and firstborn? Do you understand that these terms were used metaphorically throughout the Hebrew scriptures? That's not me speaking, that is scripture speaking.
Quote WhatIsTrue, How do you fit the following scriptures into your belief that Yeshua didn't pre-exist? I apologise that there are so many, but I wanted you to see that there is a reason why people believe that Christ pre-existed. If you can clearly show that all these verses are saying that Christ didn't pre-exist then I will listen to your (or Anthony Buzzards) doctrine.
No need to apologize, (though your sincerity seems unlikely). I must be ready at all times to give an answer, and I will answer your challenge. Thanks for the Anthony Buzzard recommendation, (though your sarcasm has been noted), but I will stick to the scriptures for my defense.
Let's take this bit by bit.
Verse from T8:
Quote Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”Take a look at the following verses:
Quote
Ephesians 1:4
“…just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love…”2 Thessalonians 2:13
“But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth…”Revelation 13:8
“All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”Revelation 17:8
“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”Do you notice a pattern? Things that are happening now, and some that are yet to happen in the future, are being spoken of as things that happened at the foundation of the world, from the very beginning. Was the Lamb slain at the foundation of the world, or was he slain in the times of ancient Rome? Of course, the answer is clear, Yeshua was crucified once at a specific point in time, yet it is described as an event that was from the beginning. How can this be? How can our names be written in the Book of Life before we were even born?
Well, let's see what scripture says.
Quote
Acts 15:18
“Known to God from eternity are all His works.”Isaiah 46:9-11
“Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, 'My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,'
Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man who executes My counsel, from a far country.
Indeed I have spoken it;
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it;
I will also do it.”1 Peter 1:20
“He(Yeshua) indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you…”Psalm 139:16
“Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.”YHWH is so powerful, so awesome, so mighty that when He says something will happen it is as though it has already taken place. One of the things that YHWH planned from the very beginning was the redemption of mankind. That is why it is said that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.
Moving on. More verses from T8:
Quote Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Colossians 1:17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.Well, let's first tackle the issue of Yeshua being the firstborn.
Quote
Psalm 89:26-27
“He shall cry to Me, 'You are my Father,
My God, and the rock of my salvation.'
27Also I will make him My firstborn,
The highest of the kings of the earth.”Here is a clear prophecy about the Messiah. Notice that YHWH does not say that the Messiah is His firstborn, or even that he will be His firstborn, but that He will make him His firstborn. Then He goes on to explain what it means. It is a matter of status, saying that he will be the highest of the kings. That is what the whole concept of being firstborn is about. It is about a status within a family, or a kingdom, not just a matter of the time of one's birth. That is why YHWH can make a future ruler the firstborn of all.
Further expanding on the Colossians passage, I wrote this elsewhere:
Quote “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; for in him
all things in heaven and earth were created, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers – all things have been created through him and for him. He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together. He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him God was pleased to reconcile to Himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.” – Colossians 1:15-20 (NRSV)Here, Paul explains how all of creation centers around, and holds together because of, Christ. Without him, the world would be doomed to destruction, its unrighteousness forever blotted out from history, because there would be no redemption for mankind. Christ plays a glorious role in keeping God’s wonderful plan together, but all of that glory is a reflection of God’s wisdom and character. That seems to be one of the reasons why Christ is called “the image of God”. Incidentally, the fact that he is called “the image”, in my mind, strikes a definite contrast between him and the One whom he is reflecting. Christ is also called the “firstborn of creation”, which denotes his status within God’s handiwork and strongly recommends against the idea that he is the Creator Himself.
This passage, along with several others, can take on a significantly different meaning depending on how the translator renders the two Greek prepositions “en” and “dia”. However, the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) translation of this passage seems to preserve the most natural reading of Paul’s thoughts within the context of his overall point. Alternate translations, like that of the NKJV, change the focus of this passage from “Christ, the firstborn of creation” to “Christ the Creator” which seems out of place given Paul’s ultimate point.
In other words, Yeshua is the centerpiece of God's plan. He is the reason that creation exists, as he is the means by which creation is redeemed. He is the reason we can look forward to the gift of eternal life. That is why YHWH has given him firstborn status.
(The Hebrews passage can be understood in the same light translating the Greek word “dia” appropriately.)
Verses from T8:
Quote Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”Of course, in this verse, I am sure that you are focusing on the word “root”. Well compare with this scripture.
Quote Isiah 11:10
“And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse,
Who shall stand as a banner to the people;
For the Gentiles shall seek Him,
And His resting place shall be glorious.Notice again the verb tense being used. This root, which can also be translated “shoot” will come in the future, long after Jesse ever lived. We shall revisit this in a moment.
More verses from T8:
Quote
Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.1 Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.These verses are superfluous in terms of establishing a pre-existent Messiah. In the Luke passage, it is not clear when it is that Yeshua is saying that he saw this vision, or if it is even, in fact, a literal event he is describing or a spiritual affirmation of the work of the seventy. In the Corinthians passage, it is clear that Paul is not being literal. I am not certain what he is saying in these verses but he is certainly not saying that Christ was a rock in the desert that the Israelites drank from.
More verses from T8:
Quote Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! AmenThis verse is addressed to and is describing God, not Yeshua. This verse does not say that “Yeshua is before all ages”.
All of the other verses that you quoted, T8, come from the gospel of John which I will address in my upcoming post to Artizan007.
But before I leave this issue, I want to ask you a simple question.
Quote 2 Samuel 7:12-13
“When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.”These are the words of YHWH to David. Here He promises that the Messiah will be David's offspring, “from his body”. Is this a joke in your mind that YHWH is playing on David? Is YHWH winking and nodding at a pre-existent Son while He is telling David that the Son will be his offspring? Frankly, I can't see how a Messiah who existed before David, and, in fact, helped in creating David could in anyway be considered David's offspring. Yet, this is what you preach. Can you explain this?
DVD,
You wrote:
Quote WhatIsTrue,
I believe what the Bible plainly teaches about Jesus:That in the beginning the Word was with God, and WAS God. (Joh 1:1)
That although being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God. (Phil 2:6)
That the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us (Joh 1:14)
That the Holy and Righteous One (Acts 3;15), the AUTHOR OF LIFE (Acts 3:15), He who laid the foundations of the earth (Heb 1:10), was killed.
That although the FIRST AND LAST (The Alpha and Omega, Rev 22:13) died, He is alive forevermore (Rev 1:17-18).
I will address your remaining question at a later date.
You also forgot to address the scriptures I quoted. I hope that you will address those as well.
Quote (Guest @ June 01 2005,16:59) http://www.wcg.org/lit/jesus/dualnature.htm
Hi FYI,
Jesus was filled with the Spirit of God. Was God also filled with God? No that is the old trinity merry-go-round that makes you dizzy as is goes round and round adding confusion to confusion.The issue here is the nature of Jesus himself and not of God living in him by the Spirit. Jesus was body and soul and spirit like us.
Hi WIT,
Rev 13.8
” All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of the Lamb who has been slain”You have a bizarre take on this verse.
Surely it rather means that
'The book of the Lamb who has been slain'[ i.e.'the Book of life'], contains the names written in it since the foundation of the world.It has nothing to do with when the Lamb was slain.
Great discourse on the nature of Christ!
http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/dualnature.htmAnd on the history of early church doctrine:
Quote (Guest @ June 01 2005,21:09) Great discourse on the nature of Christ!
http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/dualnature.htmAnd on the history of early church doctrine:
Yes,
It is a good history lesson on how men wandered off the path of truth into vain speculation, thus making themselves enemies of God.“God is one”
“You are the Christ the SON of the living God”
“The Lord is the Spirit”Nick wrote:
Quote Hi WIT,
Rev 13.8
” All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of the Lamb who has been slain”You have a bizarre take on this verse.
Surely it rather means that
'The book of the Lamb who has been slain'[ i.e.'the Book of life'], contains the names written in it since the foundation of the world.It has nothing to do with when the Lamb was slain.
Nick,
Try to remember that you are reading a translation of words and thoughts originally written in a different language. If you are only looking at one translation, you may be missing a lot. In this case, there are more than a couple of translations that clearly show a “Lamb slain before the foundation of the world”.
Quote
Rev 13:8 NKJV:
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.Rev 13:8 YLT:
And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world;Rev 13:8 NIV:
All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.What you call strange teaching is scripture.
Artizan007,
You have asked very good questions about some verses in scripture that seem to strongly indicate that the Son pre-existed his earthly life. To be perfectly honest, the answer that I have to your questions is not an easy one, but I share it with you because you have asked sincerely.
You will notice that all of the verses that you quoted come from the book of John. (There are a few more in there that you missed.) Well, I am convinced that the book of John is one of the most difficult books of the bible to harmonize with the rest of scripture. In it, you will find what seem to be doctrines that aren't taught anywhere else in scripture, as well as major events that no other book of the bible records. For that reason, I always look for a second witness to the book of John before I accept something within its pages at face value. Otherwise, a lot of disharmony is wrought within scripture as a whole.
For example, in the book of John, and no where else,
1. Yeshua raises himself. (John 2:19-21)
2. Yeshua is called 'God' by one of his disciples. (John 20:28)
3. Yeshua breaks the law. (John 5:18)
4. Yeshua raises Lazarus from the dead*. (John 11)
5. Yehsua washes his disiples' feet before the last supper. (John 13)
6. Yeshua imparts the Holy Spirit on his disciples by breathing on them. (John 20:22)
7. Yeshua gives his disciples the power to forgive sins. (John 20:23)(*This is most interesting because in John 12:17-18, Lazarus' resurrection is given as the reason why people believed in him when he rode into Jerusalem before he was crucified. Yet, no other scripture mentions this spectacular event.)
Furthermore, there are some major events in Yeshua's life that are either completely missing from the book of John, or documented very ambiguously.
1. It is not clear in the book of John that Yeshua was baptized during his encounter with John the Baptist. (John 1:32-34)
2. Yeshua is not tempted of Satan in the book of John, but in other gospels the temptation marks the beginning of his ministry.
3. The pivotal confession of Peter that Yeshua is the Messiah, (Mark 8:27-30; Luke 9:18-20; Matthew 16:13-16) is completely missing. In the book of John, Peter is told that Yeshua is the Messiah before Peter even begins to follow him. (John 1:41-42)
4. Instead, Nathaneal declares that Yeshua is the Son of God, before Yeshua even does his first miracle. (John 1:49)Also, some strange teachings, (some of which are the hallmark of the Catholic church), are taught by Yeshua in John that are found no where else.
1. He tells his disciples that they must eat his flesh and drink his blood. In the other gospels, Yeshua turns the bread and wine of the last supper into symbols of his sacrifice, calling to mind the Passover lamb that they were celebrating. In John, Yeshua says these things without any reference to symbolism whatsoever, and not in connection to Passover at all, and many disciples leave him because it is a “hard saying”. (John 6:53-58)
2. Yeshua tells his disciples that they will see angels ascending and descending on him. (John 1:51)
3. Yeshua transforms Mary into the mother figure that she retains in Catholicism to this very day. (John 19:26-27)In short, a lot – and I mean a lot – of figurative language is being used in the book of John. (Read the first three gospels and then read John and you will see the stark difference.) So, it is difficult to tell what should be taken literally and what is a mere figure of speech. But absent a second witness, I would not subscribe to any doctrine that is primarily established in the book of John.
Hi WIT,
Is 11 1-5 speaks of the [first]coming of Jesus.
Is 11.1f
” Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse and a branch from his roots will bear fruit and the Spirit of the Lord will rest on him”
This is the Messiah filled with the grace and power of God.
Is 11.6 onwards speak of the second coming. It is only then “the lion will eat straw like the ox”
So verse 11.10
” then it will come about in that day that the nations will RESORT TO the Root of Jesse who will stand as a signal to the peoples;and his resting place will be glorious”So this is not describing the second coming but the turning of people back to the “root of Jesse”[Jesus]
Matt 22.41f
“Now while the Pharisees were gathering together Jeus asked them a question
'What do you think about the Christ, whose son is he?'
They said to him
'The Son of David”
He said to them
'Then how does David, in the Spirit call him “Lord” saying
“The Lord says to my Lord ” Sit at my right hand until I put thine enemies beneath thy feet”?
If David then call him “Lord”, how is he his son?'”So Psalm 110 is shown by Jesus to be talking of himself. The Messiah then existed in the time of David, if David called him Lord. Jesus is explaining that David is created through and less than the Son of God. Later the Son of God was born into the line of David physically. So he is both Son of God and Son of David.
Ps 89 specifically speaks of David “I have found David, my servant” as well as prophesying about Jesus.”I will make him my first-born” describes the human sonship of Jesus with God his Father as well as showing he is the firstborn in status and inheritance.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 01 2005,20:45) Hi WIT,
Rev 13.8
” All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of the Lamb who has been slain”You have a bizarre take on this verse.
Surely it rather means that
'The book of the Lamb who has been slain'[ i.e.'the Book of life'], contains the names written in it since the foundation of the world.It has nothing to do with when the Lamb was slain.
Hi WIT,
Not every translation is accurate, deliberately or not, and you are meant to compare scripture with scripture to find the truth and not just rely on the views of men.
Rev17 8
“..And those who dwell on the earth will wonder,
whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world,..”
Compare with
Rev 13.8
“And all who dwell on the earth will worship him, every one whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the lamb who has been slain.”So comparing the two the only addition to the first in this matter is “of the lamb who was slain”.
Does that not tell you the answer or have you stopped seeking?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 01 2005,21:59) Quote (Guest @ June 01 2005,21:09) Great discourse on the nature of Christ!
http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/dualnature.htmAnd on the history of early church doctrine:
Yes,
It is a good history lesson on how men wandered off the path of truth into vain speculation, thus making themselves enemies of God.“God is one”
“You are the Christ the SON of the living God”
“The Lord is the Spirit”
This same organization you claim “wandered off the path of truth” is the same organization that established the cannon of scripture.http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/canon.html
Your perception of “truth” is skewed to fit your preconceptions and are not founded in the Truth of God.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ June 01 2005,23:00) Artizan007, You have asked very good questions about some verses in scripture that seem to strongly indicate that the Son pre-existed his earthly life. To be perfectly honest, the answer that I have to your questions is not an easy one, but I share it with you because you have asked sincerely.
You will notice that all of the verses that you quoted come from the book of John. (There are a few more in there that you missed.) Well, I am convinced that the book of John is one of the most difficult books of the bible to harmonize with the rest of scripture. In it, you will find what seem to be doctrines that aren't taught anywhere else in scripture, as well as major events that no other book of the bible records. For that reason, I always look for a second witness to the book of John before I accept something within its pages at face value. Otherwise, a lot of disharmony is wrought within scripture as a whole.
For example, in the book of John, and no where else,
1. Yeshua raises himself. (John 2:19-21)
2. Yeshua is called 'God' by one of his disciples. (John 20:28)
3. Yeshua breaks the law. (John 5:18)
4. Yeshua raises Lazarus from the dead*. (John 11)
5. Yehsua washes his disiples' feet before the last supper. (John 13)
6. Yeshua imparts the Holy Spirit on his disciples by breathing on them. (John 20:22)
7. Yeshua gives his disciples the power to forgive sins. (John 20:23)(*This is most interesting because in John 12:17-18, Lazarus' resurrection is given as the reason why people believed in him when he rode into Jerusalem before he was crucified. Yet, no other scripture mentions this spectacular event.)
Furthermore, there are some major events in Yeshua's life that are either completely missing from the book of John, or documented very ambiguously.
1. It is not clear in the book of John that Yeshua was baptized during his encounter with John the Baptist. (John 1:32-34)
2. Yeshua is not tempted of Satan in the book of John, but in other gospels the temptation marks the beginning of his ministry.
3. The pivotal confession of Peter that Yeshua is the Messiah, (Mark 8:27-30; Luke 9:18-20; Matthew 16:13-16) is completely missing. In the book of John, Peter is told that Yeshua is the Messiah before Peter even begins to follow him. (John 1:41-42)
4. Instead, Nathaneal declares that Yeshua is the Son of God, before Yeshua even does his first miracle. (John 1:49)Also, some strange teachings, (some of which are the hallmark of the Catholic church), are taught by Yeshua in John that are found no where else.
1. He tells his disciples that they must eat his flesh and drink his blood. In the other gospels, Yeshua turns the bread and wine of the last supper into symbols of his sacrifice, calling to mind the Passover lamb that they were celebrating. In John, Yeshua says these things without any reference to symbolism whatsoever, and not in connection to Passover at all, and many disciples leave him because it is a “hard saying”. (John 6:53-58)
2. Yeshua tells his disciples that they will see angels ascending and descending on him. (John 1:51)
3. Yeshua transforms Mary into the mother figure that she retains in Catholicism to this very day. (John 19:26-27)In short, a lot – and I mean a lot – of figurative language is being used in the book of John. (Read the first three gospels and then read John and you will see the stark difference.) So, it is difficult to tell what should be taken literally and what is a mere figure of speech. But absent a second witness, I would not subscribe to any doctrine that is primarily established in the book of John.
Hi A7 and WIT,
A7, as all can now see WhatIsTrue is here putting his cards on the table. The book of John offends him. So he is not just rejecting the odd verse but subtlely suggesting to all that this book is not of the Spirit of God. He therby declares that he himself is not of the Spirit of God but is a false teacher. He has no compunction about rejecting the words of Christ and is encouraging others to do likewise.Wit, sadly you appear to be fossillised in the Torah and you only accept what scriptures easily fit with the Jewish view. Thus, like them, you stumble over the stumbling stone and have the veil before your eyes as you read scripture.
WhatIsTrue; thus you cannot be allowed to teach in this forum.
You will be welcome to do so when you are able to show that the Spirit is greater than your mind and not vice versa. Then you will know how scripture would be seriously lacking without the book of John. Of course you may have to change your doctrinal view to fit John in as God designed.Quote (Guest @ June 01 2005,23:46) Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 01 2005,21:59) Quote (Guest @ June 01 2005,21:09) Great discourse on the nature of Christ!
http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/dualnature.htmAnd on the history of early church doctrine:
Yes,
It is a good history lesson on how men wandered off the path of truth into vain speculation, thus making themselves enemies of God.“God is one”
“You are the Christ the SON of the living God”
“The Lord is the Spirit”
This same organization you claim “wandered off the path of truth” is the same organization that established the cannon of scripture.http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/canon.html
Your perception of “truth” is skewed to fit your preconceptions and are not founded in the Truth of God.
Yes FYI,
Sad isn't it that what was born so noble became apostate so quickly.
No I do not follow denominations. Following men is not helpful. The truth of God does not change or evolve with time.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 01 2005,10:13) Hi DVD, Thank you for showing us two scriptures that say God raised Jesus. There are more
Acts 2.32, 3.15, 3.26, 4.10, 5.30, 10.40, 13.22, 13.33, 13.34, Rom 4.24, 10.9, 1Cor 6.14, 15.15, 2 Cor 4.14, Coll 2.12.[that's 15 so far]And of course it speaks of 'He' who raised Jesus in 2 Cor 4.14, James 5.21, Eph 1.20
Now raising in the past tense is an action done by another and is shown in Christ
“was raised”
Jn 2.22, 21.14, Rom 7.4, 8.34and as “has been raised”
Rom 6.4, 6.9, 7.4, 1Cor 15.12,13,14,16,17,20 and Coll3.1.Jesus spoke of himself too
“after I have been raised”
Mt 26.32
Mk 14.28So we are left with the prophetic verse in Jn 2.19 quoted by evildoers in Matt 26.61 and 27.40. Jesus was filled with the Spirit of God and prophesied his death and resurrection. It was the Father's Spirit speaking through him in prophecy.
I can think of very few facts as clearly shown in scripture -God raised Jesus.
Nick,John 2
19Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.20Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21But he spake of the temple of his body. 22When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
Please answer 'yes' or 'no' to the following questions:
1. Did Jesus ever make a false claim?
2. Did Jesus claim to raise up this temple in Joh 2:19?
3. Did John verify that Jesus meant the temple of his body in Joh 2:21?
4. Do you believe He did?Hi DVD,
I will as soon as you explain why the many scriptures that say that God raised Jesus are not true. There are rather more of them so the 'fewer' have to be interpreted according to the 'commoner'. It is commonsense really.Your evasiveness speaks volumes. Thank you for confirming what I suspected about you.
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