The Trinity Doctrine

[liljon]

1 John 5:20 Jesus is the True God. So are you saying God is not Lord?

[NickHassan]

Quote (Guest @ April 21 2005,11:36)

Hi Nick, Learning truth can be a very slow process for most of us.  I would think that when most people become saved they are like what Paul calls “babes”.  I see Ezekiel 18,(esp.18:21,22),as the gospel message and the new testament telling us why that good news is possible.  For me to say I understand all truths in the bible would be a lie.  Salvation is something we can receive today, but learning truth will take a life time if not longer.  I would have to agree with what T8 has written and what Rudy has written in other posts on this subject.  I do however also see your points that you are making.

Hi greg,
Ez 18 is about salvation through following the OT Law. We are gentiles and the Law was not given to us. We are outside that law and it does not save us.

The Law was completely satisfied by Jesus and we find salvation by being joined with him in the way of salvation he showed us.

Now, outside of Jesus God shows mercy to many too. It is possible to have the Law as conscience and please God. We will also obey the spirit of the Law if we are lead by the Spirit.

But to trust in our own works to save ourselves is not possible for us.

[Anonymous]

Hi Nick,
I don't see Ezek 18 as a different form of salvation for old testament believers but rather a statement that a wicked person has no salvation. We are saved because of what Christ did for us. I have always thought that it was because of cavary that people who lived before the cross were also saved. C.S. Lewis made a statement in his book Mere Christianity that says this “We do know that no man can be saved except through Christ; we do not know that only those who know Him can be saved through Him.” Now this quote is not scripture, but I point it out because a baby is a good example of this. I believe all babies will live again if they die and this is because Christ died for them. I don't think an eigth month old knows Christ. I see old testament believers being saved through Christ but not knowing Him. Turning from wickedness is a consistant theme in the old and new testament. The change of heart which God wants from us should occur if one claims he has salvation. If you are walking down the path of wickedness, turn and walk the other way. I don't think this is equivalent to salvation by works for if it is, then why did Christ have to come and die for us?

I am sorry to have digressed from the trinity topic. I do see the trinity as a great deception. It is the significance of this deception that I am sorting through in my mind. Is the significance the fact that whoever believes in the trinity is lost?

[NickHassan]

Hi greg, See you in salvation forum.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Guest @ April 23 2005,13:00)

Is the significance the fact that whoever believes in the trinity is lost?

Hi Greg,

I believe that you can believe in the Trinity doctrine and indeed other false doctrines and still be saved as long as you believed and believe the true gospel and responded accordingly. So long as you are on the true foundation, you will be saved, even if your works burn down in judgement.

If someone believed that:

[Anonymous]

Hi T8,
Thankyou for the post. Did you know that the Vandals, Ostrogoths, and the Heruls, were Arian Christians. They were exterminated by the trinitarians. The Heruls (493 AD), the Vandals (534 AD) and the Ostrogoths (538 AD). Daniel talks about a “little horn” that rises amongst the ten and plucks up 3 horns. If we only see the little horn as Antiochus Epiphanes and not as a power coming forth from the Roman empire, then the significance of these defeats may be lost. Older commentaries such a Jamieson, Fausset & Brown, see the little horn extending past Antiochus.

I hope you may find this interesting.

Greg

[liljon]

Disbelieving Jesus is God is against the first commandment John 20:28 Thomas' God 2 Peter 1 Peter's God Titus 2:13 Pauls God

[NickHassan]

Hi liljon,
Was Paul confused? Not at all.

These too are from Titus you have quoted;

” Paul, a bondservant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ..”

“Grace and peace from God the Father , and Christ Jesus our saviour”

“But when the kindness of God, our Saviour, and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing and regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,whom He poured out on us richly THROUGH JESUS CHRIST, our saviour..”

God is spoken of also in these contexts
” grace of God”
“word of God”
“doctrine of God our saviour”
“commandment of God”
“God's steward”

So who is God? The Father
Are Jesus and the Father the same. Clearly not.
Who is the Saviour?
Both the Father and Jesus, His servant, can be described in this way.

The verse you quote clearly is not a strong basis for a new doctrine, as you might imply, even in it's own context.

[Is 1:18]

Hi Cubes,
Thank you for being so patient with me. First of all I thought it might be productive for both of us if I lay my ‘cards’ on the table.

My hermeneutics:

Quote

Colloquially put, this is how I interpret scripture: If the verse makes sense in its plain, commonsense reading and aligns with ALL of scripture (from Genesis to Revelation), then I take God at His literal word.

Let me also say that I have renounced all creeds, and statements of faith by anyone or anything. I put NO stock in any of them (never have) and DO NOT believe what I do because an institution has implanted their doctrine in me. I have come to my own conclusions via my own study and the Holy Spirit.

Let me ask you a question. Are all important biblical truths explicitly revealed in God’s word? In case you are considering saying yes then I challenge you, or anyone for that matter, to prove to me with scripture that Satan is a nefarious fallen angel. Do you believe that Satan is real and think you can prove it with scripture? If so, then I suggest you contact my good friend Sammo (a registered member, and a christadelphian) and engage him in a debate on this topic. You will soon discover that this particular, almost universally held, truth is revealed implicitly but NOT explicitly in the Bible. You must inferentially connect the dots to prove his existence, but it is a none-the-less entirely logical assumption (i.e. it is logically deduced) to hold and, might I say, (although, Sammo will disagree) a dangerous one to renounce. Wouldn’t you agree?

Since I have been coming here I have essentially been told what scriptures I should interpret in a literal context and what scripture I should allegorise (Zechariah 14 is a classic example of the later). However, I’m not going to let any person tell me how I should interpret certain scripture, the same as I wouldn’t allow a church to dictate this to me. I will examine the whole Bible and consider all passages that speak of Jesus and come to a “Holy Spirit-fuelled” conclusion on the identity of Christ. I will let the Bible tell me who and what Jesus by attributing equal weighting to all scripture. Do you agree this is the right approach?

Lastly, let me first state unequivocally that I am a monotheist; I believe there is One (echad) God. However, this word ‘echad’ does allow for compound unity. Compared the venerated Deut 6:4 with Genesis 2:24:

Quote

Deuteronomy 6 4 Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one [echad]!

cf.

Quote

Genesis 2 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one [echad] flesh.

If absolute singularity was intended then why isn’t the word ‘yachid’ used in Deut 6:4? That word would have unambiguously dispelled any notion of plurality. Further I suspect that a universe-creating God would have an infinitely high level of complexity, and therefore should we be surprised that it is difficult to cognitively-fathom Him? To authoritatively-define Him? I am a ‘trinitarian’ in the sense that I recognise a plurality in His identity and the ‘concept’ of the trinity best accounts for how God has revealed Himself to me in the scriptures.

With all this in mind I want to share with you some of the scriptures the Holy Spirit has used to lead me to my conclusion that there is a pluralistic element (compound unity) to God, and my conclusion that Jesus is indeed God (as revealed in Zech 14):

1. The Alpha and Omega statements

Quote

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Isaiah 48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

Before you read the other verses, deeply consider what God has spoken here. Alpha and Omega is a title He uses of Himself to say something profound about Himself. He is the Alpha and Omega and beside Him there is NO God. Now, with this in mind, read these NT verses spoken by Jesus Christ.

Quote

Revelation 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

In Jewish thinking, a reference to the first and last letters of an alphabet (aleph and tau in Hebrew) was regarded as including all the intermediate letters, and thus represents totality or entirety. Make no mistake Cubes, it is an emphatic statement of eternality and omnipotence! and Jesus applies it to Himself, don’t make light of this. I believe that Christ's use of this title in Revelation 22:12-13 was undoubtedly intended to be taken as a claim to be God Almighty (Rev 1:8). But, I encourage you to do your own study and come to your own conclusions on the Alpha and Omega statements (also the I AM statements too, when you have time).

2. Eschatology
I think eschatological scripture is the predominant causal agent the Holy Spirit has used to forge my understanding of Jesus’ identity. Zechariah 14 is definitely not a passage (chapter actually) in isolation. If you compare end time scripture with scripture I’m sure you will see what I mean. Here are a few that have contributed to my conclusion, but I encourage you to REALLY delve into eschatology and draw your own conclusions.

Quote

Zephaniah 3 1 Woe to her that is filthy and polluted, to the oppressing city! 2 She obeyed not the voice; she received not correction; she trusted not in the LORD; she drew not near to her God. 3 Her princes within her are roaring lions; her judges are evening wolves; they gnaw not the bones till the morrow. 4 Her prophets are light and treacherous persons: her priests have polluted the sanctuary, they have done violence to the law. 5 The just LORD is in the midst thereof; he will not do iniquity: every morning doth he bring his judgment to light, he faileth not; but the unjust knoweth no shame. 6 I have cut off the nations: their towers are desolate; I made their streets waste, that none passeth by: their cities are destroyed, so that there is no man, that there is none inhabitant. 7 I said, Surely thou wilt fear me, thou wilt receive instruction; so their dwelling should not be cut off, howsoever I punished them: but they rose early, and corrupted all their doings. 8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. 9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent. 10 From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia my suppliants, even the daughter of my dispersed, shall bring mine offering. 11 In that day shalt thou not be ashamed for all thy doings, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then I will take away out of the midst of thee them that rejoice in thy pride, and thou shalt no more be haughty because of my holy mountain. 12 I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the LORD. 13 The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid. 14 Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem. 15 The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more. 16 In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack. 17 The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing. 18 I will gather them that are sorrowful for the solemn assembly, who are of thee, to whom the reproach of it was a burden. 19 Behold, at that time I will undo all that afflict thee: and I will save her that halteth, and gather her that was driven out; and I will get them praise and fame in every land where they have been put to shame. 20 At that time will I bring you again, even in the time that I gather you: for I will make you a name and a praise among all people of the earth, when I turn back your captivity before your eyes, saith the LORD.

Cubes, nobody sits in the Temple of God accepting worship but God himself.  He is a jealous God, He does not delegate ANYONE to receive HIS worship! (also notice the reverential worship described in Zechariah 14)

Quote

Rev 21:  2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Quote

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Quote

Daniel 7:9-27 9I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.   10A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.   11I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.   12As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.   13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.   14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.   15I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.   16I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.   17These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.   18But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.   19Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;   20And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.   21I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;   22Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the ; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.   23Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.   24And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.   25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.   26But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.   27And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Can you see that there is a clear distinc
tion drawn between the “Ancient of Days” (Father God) and the “Most High” (some Bibles render this “Most High [God]” or “Highest One”, but for consistency I have chosen to use your version of choice). Whatever the rendering, the term means the supreme:

From Strongs:

Quote

H5946 עליון ‛elyo^n el-yone' (Chaldee); corresponding to H5945; the supreme: – Most high.

Question: Who are the saints of the Most High?

Quote

Revelation 19 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Quote

1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Quote

Jude 1 14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints

Answer: Those that BELONG to Jesus Christ.

So who is the Most High? Jesus Christ.

3. Philippians 2
Clearly a line has been drawn in the Heaven.Net sand on the correct interpretation of Phil 2:6-7 but while everyone is entitled to their own opinions, they aren’t entitled to their own facts. Facts are objective, not subjective. We must let scripture speak for itself. It is a fact that word ‘harpagamos’ (v6) is used in the passive tense. Therefore, it MUST be rendered ‘retained’ or more accurately ‘prized’ (to hold on to). We cannot impose our own bias on scripture because it doesn’t fit with our preconceptions. Here is how the Amplified Bible renders this section:

Quote

Philippians 2 (AMP) 1SO BY whatever [appeal to you there is in our mutual dwelling in Christ, by whatever] strengthening and consoling and encouraging [our relationship] in Him [affords], by whatever persuasive incentive there is in love, by whatever participation in the [Holy] Spirit [we share], and by whatever depth of affection and compassionate sympathy, 2Fill up and complete my joy by living in harmony and being of the same mind and one in purpose, having the same love, being in full accord and of one harmonious mind and intention. 3Do nothing from factional motives [through contentiousness, strife, selfishness, or for unworthy ends] or prompted by conceit and empty arrogance. Instead, in the true spirit of humility (lowliness of mind) let each regard the others as better than and superior to himself [thinking more highly of one another than you do of yourselves]. 4Let each of you esteem and look upon and be concerned for not [merely] his own interests, but also each for the interests of others. 5Let this same attitude and purpose and [humble] mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus: [Let Him be your example in humility:] 6Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not [c]think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained, 7But stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being. 8And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross! 9Therefore [because He stooped so low] God has highly exalted Him and has [f]freely bestowed on Him the name that is above every name, 10That in (at) the name of Jesus every knee should (must) bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11And every tongue [frankly and openly] confess and acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Now with all this written, read Zechariah 14 again through my eyes:

Quote

Zechariah 14 1Behold, the day of the* LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.   5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. 6And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. 10All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. 11And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. 12And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. 13And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour. 14And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. 15And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague. 16And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. 18And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 19This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. 20In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD's house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

* Notice the definitive article is used and it is applied directly to Jesus. In the Old Testament it is called the Great day of God!  Where God himself judges, but we see it is Jesus and His wrath and the wrath of God are the same.  The Day of the LORD is the Day of the Wrath of The Lamb! The Old Testament says explicitly that God will judge, I don't see how that duty could be delegated by proxy, it is Christ and He is God.

Quote

Psalm 96:13 Before the LORD: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.

OK Cubes, I think I’ve given you some of the context for my christological (there’s that word again) views. I sincerely encourage you to deeply study these things. Our opinion on the identity of Jesus is preeminent. If it takes 1000hrs of study and you change your mind then that would have been an infinitely miniscule investment in the context of eternity. Be well.

I will leave you with the Father’s view on the matter:

Quote

Hebrews 1 7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. 13But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Cubes this post was written to you, but “He who hath and ear……”

[Is 1:18]

So, to answer your questions specifically (the ones I haven't already addressed):

Quote

i)If we hold that as Jesus said, no man has seen God but the son (who is in the bosom of the father…he has declared him), then we must agree that God is Invisible and exceedingly awesome for us to behold in everyway.  Who can tell the myriads of ways by which God accomplishes his purposes?  Above all though, he sent Jesus our Lord, his own son, who was entrusted with far greater responsibilities towards mankind than all these (eg. angels, prophets, apostles, kings, widows, etc).  (John 3:16).

This is how the NASB translators rendered the John 1:18 verse:

Quote

No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

.

I think Stroshow has raised some interesting verses that seriously question what John meant by “No one has seen God”.

Quote

ii)  Jesus quoted Isaiah 61 in Luke 4:18-20 as follows:   18  The Spirit of the LORD is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor.  He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, 19  to preach the acceptable year of the LORD. 20  Then he closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down.   And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on him. Isaiah 61:1-2 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me, because the Lord has anointed Me to preach good tidings to the poor; he has sent me to heal the broken hearted , to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound; to problaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn.

Philippians 2:6-7 explains this. Also what is the day of vengeance of our God? It’s the day of the wrath of the Lamb!

Quote

It is clear from Jesus' quotation in Luke 4:18-20 that he did not consider himself to be the LORD GOD, but rather as the one anointed by God to carry forth the mission.

Jesus neither explicitly confirmed nor denied that He was God. He left it for us to spiritually discern.

1 Corinthians 2
10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Quote

Now on that day, it would be Jesus returning to earth like a thief in the night to take his saints with him, but it IS nevertheless, the day of the LORD (Father) as per Isaiah 61:1-2.

Study eschatology and see if this rings true.

Quote

Don't forget that Jesus says that only the Father knows of that day.

The answer is in Phil 2:7.

Quote

Also, here are some interesting facts about glory, so that when we exalt Jesus, it is ultimately to the Father's glory.  He wants us to dig his son (to put it in 1970s terms).  He is awfully proud of his son and likes to show him off (this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased).  If that is not a proud papa, I don't know of another.

I agree. However, this doesn’t disprove Jesus being God.

God Bless Cubes

[Is 1:18]

I hope people will see my post for what it is: A defence of the deity of Jesus not an attack on the deity of our Father in heaven.

Im going to take a 'Heaven.Net holiday' now and re-introduce myself to my (long-suffering) family. God Bless all.

[Proclaimer]

Quote

Jesus neither explicitly confirmed nor denied that He was God. He left it for us to spiritually discern.

Jesus also never said that he was Prince Tui teka. Of course scripture shows that he is not. Not by stating it, but by a lack of any evidence. Jesus did say that he was the son of God however. So I guess that he must be the son of God.

Defending Jesus deity is fine, so long as you understand what deity means. As long as you do not use the argument that having divine nature (divinity) makes you God, because that is the lie that many have fallen for.

Otherwise no problem. Jesus is divine. Even the fullness of God's nature is in him. He is of God.

[NickHassan]

So Is 1.18,
If the Holy Spirit guided your understandings then they should line up beautifully with scripture with none broken.

Do they line up with the Master's words?

I see broken scriptures everywhere.

Ah well.

Guess who has the last word?

[Proclaimer]

I personally do not think that many people (if any) would come to the conclusion that God was a Trinity if they read the bible from Genesis to Revelation unless they were taught it first.

In other words the idea needs to be planted in a persons mind before they see it. I think that a person who read the bible from cover to cover with no indoctrination would come to the conclusion that there is one God and that God had a son called Jesus Christ.

If they read the scripture clearly they would see that Jesus existed before coming to earth as the Word of God.

It's like Evolution. How many people would believe that Evolution was the process that created all the species on earth, if they never heard of that doctrine/theory? Very few if any probably.

The god of this age is a liar and the Father of Lies. The whole world is swayed toward him and he has deceived the whole world. But not all of us are of this world. If we remain in him who is true, then we can escape the corruption that is in the world.

[NickHassan]

Hi t8,
1Cor 5.6
” ..Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened”
2 Cor 11.3
“But I am afraid that ,as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully”
2 Cor 11.31
” The God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ, He who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying”

Eph 518
” And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another in psalms and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord, always giving thanks for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God, even the Father, and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ”
Eph 3 14
” For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives it's name..”

Trinity theory is from the old leaven of human wisdom. It is deceitfully added to truth to lead men away from true worship of God to apostasy. It is a new gospel and not of the Spirit of Truth. It destroys the loving family relationship shown between the Father and the Son amalgamating them again into one unnatural being.

If God is not the Father of Yeshua then I too am not the father of my wonderful family of seven as the name of my family derives from that beautiful family relationship.

Think about it friends as it also applies to you.

[Proclaimer]

It's simply astonishing just how many scriptures there are that show the truth that there is one God who is the Father. It's amazing that so few people actually question a false doctrine that is of course not taught in scripture. But the reality is that once a human being is brain washed he must first renounce that which he was brain washed with before he can accept truth. He must become empty of himself before he can be full with Christ.  

But I have seen time and time again that no amount of scripture will convince a brain washed person, unless he wants to be helped. Scripture tells us clearly that before the coming of the Lord Jesus there must be a great falling away and then the man of sin will be revealed. We certainly live in the dark ages with regards to truth, yet the man of sin is not revealed yet as far as I know. But I think that we live in the time of apostacy. Many today appear to be under the drunken influence of Babylon, the Mother of Harlots. They stumble around and cannot walk a straight line. But the fact remains that in any age (in New Testament times) we have access to God's Spirit if we truly ask. It is our fault if we let the world rule us.

The resistance to scripture by many (even here) reminds me of a time when I was in India. This sales person was following me around trying to sell a home made padlock. I had already bought one off someone else and I used it to lock up my pack as it worked quite well. The one that this guy was trying to sell me was hand crafted like the other one I already had, but was of a different design. But in order for me to buy one I wanted it to actually work. I wanted another one to lock the zips together on the lower part of the pack. This would make it harder for anyone to steal from me or even plant something like drugs in my bag.

I asked the seller if the padlock was good enough to lock my bag and stop anyone from opening it. He replied that it was very strong and no one could open without a key. Great I thought. I took the padlock in my hand to test it, but I easily pulled the padlock open without a key. I looked at him and said it is obviously not strong enough for practical use, but it is very nice all the same. But he insisted that it was strong. I said to him but I opened it with my hands in front of you, what more proof do you need. But still he insisted that it was very good and that it was secure for the use that I had in mind. I asked him to lock it again and then I opened it again with my hands. But he still insisted that it was secure and strong. What could I say. This guy was trying to delude me with a blatant lie. He was trying to convince me of something when I saw the opposite with my own eyes. Yet he continued steadfastly. He continued to preach his message of so-called truth to me, even though he saw me demonstrate that his words were not true before his eyes.

The funny thing was if you took his demenour alone, you would think that the guy was telling the truth. He looked so convincing and had a look on his face that said to me that I shouldn't even question his words. But the facts spoke for themself. When I think about it now it makes me laugh at how rediculous it was for that person to try and change reality for a lie.

It kind of reminds me of what goes on here with some people. You can preach clearly from scripture and even quote scripture word for word without saying it's scripture and then you get these so-called christians who just come against every thing you say. You can then say well what about this scripture “There is one God the Father” or one of the others within the hundreds that teach that there is one God and that the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ is that God. Yet these salesmen try and sell you another gospel and another Jesus. Even when you quote a clear scripture that contradicts their teaching, they just continue right on in the same fashion trying to convince you of a lie. Their demeanor or manner in which they write seems so convincing too and they try to make you feel that you must be crazy to even question their doctrine and gospel.

This is one of the many rediculous things I have seen in this world. The world itself is based on lies. It is a system that governs this planets inhabitants. But the worst thing of all is that anyone can easily see the deception if their eyes were open. But the thing is that many just close their eyes and believe the lies.
They probably got that way because they didn't really bother to seek the truth in the beginning. Once they have been completely indoctrinated, it doesn't matter how much truth you speak or how many scriptures you show them. It will never be enough because it doesn't connect with the lies that they have taken on board. For them to admit that they may be wrong is to admit that their lives up to that point has been a lie (in that area) and that is too much for them to bear because their pride is hurt.

But every once in a while you find a jewel among all the sharp stones. Once in a while you find a person who has a passion for truth and who questions that which many consider a sacred cow. This kind of person lets truth change them rather than them changing truth. They even rejoice at their mistakes when they are discovered because that is an opportunity to see the truth when they couldn't see it before. They see and embrace truth in order to be better.

Such people if they do not give up are rewarded by being set free. Once they are free it is hard for them to be coaxed back to the prison of deception although not impossible. The only way that they can go back is if they stray from the path of righteousness. Yet those who claim to have light but really have ignorance/darkness stand there saying come to the light. But if a man has tasted of the true light he can see darkness for what it is.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Guest @ May 02 2005,07:55)

Hi T8, Thankyou for the post. Did you know that the Vandals, Ostrogoths, and the Heruls, were Arian Christians. They were exterminated by the trinitarians. The Heruls (493 AD), the Vandals (534 AD) and the Ostrogoths (538 AD). Daniel talks about a “little horn” that rises amongst the ten and plucks up 3 horns. If we only see the little horn as Antiochus Epiphanes and not as a power coming forth from the Roman empire, then the significance of these defeats may be lost. Older commentaries such a Jamieson, Fausset & Brown, see the little horn extending past Antiochus. I hope you may find this interesting. Greg

Thanks Greg.

I have decided to start up a post to find out what the Arians believed. I have heard conflicting reports about them and would like to get to the truth about them and their beliefs.

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….3;t=240

[Cubes]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 03 2005,05:33)

Lastly, let me first state unequivocally that I am a monotheist; I believe there is One (echad) God. However, this word ‘echad’ does allow for compound unity. Compared the venerated Deut 6:4 with Genesis 2:24: Quote Deuteronomy 6 4 Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one [echad]! cf. Quote Genesis 2 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one [echad] flesh. If absolute singularity was intended then why isn’t the word ‘yachid’ used in Deut 6:4? That word would have unambiguously dispelled any notion of plurality.

Hello Isaiah 1:18:

I appreciate all the effort put into your post and I plan to study the scriptures that you cited though over the course of time and respond accordingly as God grants opportunity.  

For now though, I would think that we could come to a conclusion just based on what you've said here, and these scripures that address it:

1Cr 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.

Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

We should not be given these scriptures and various others if God intended us to believe that there is no one greater than Christ.  This is the plain text of scripture.

                                   ——-    

The question is not about the diety of Christ but about the Head of Christ.  These scriptures challenge the meaning attributed BY Trinitarians to Phil 2:5-11 and find it lacking:  

If Phil 2:5-11 means GOD and Christ are one and equal
but 1 Corinthians 11:3 says GOD is the head of Christ:  Then the final result must be 1 Corinthians 11:3 because a thing/person cannot be equal with that which is greater than it/himself.  It's a logical and mathematical problem and I wish we had some mathematicians here.

A simple equation to me would be something like:  
*100:2 = 2, that is, IF 100 means 2.  But does 100 mean 2?  No.  How do we know that it is not intended to mean 2? Because the context of Phil 2:5-11 itself says it, and the values are expressed elsewhere in scripture.  

Therefore, 100:2=100 is greater.  2 is a form and expression of 100 but is not 100.

A trinitarian would of course state the equation as *2:2=2, but must then follow through and explain 1 Cor 11:3 and others to translate what is intended in Phil 2:5-11…and follow through with a logical equation.

Since we say the father is unique and not the same as Christ, we can assign him a different and greater value and the value assigned to Christ would derive from this base value and express it but is not the actual value.  That makes much more sense and reflects what I call the Romans 1:20 principle.

***the numbers used are not intended whatsoever to represent God or Christ.

Do enjoy your time away until we hear from you again.  

Best regards to you.

[Cubes]

Aptly said, t8.

I have observed similar things regarding the trinity and other falsehoods…like the ones who come along and say: Did he really create them male and female…? They grow bolder and proliferate giving a sense of credibility to some, so that as Jesus said: Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.

But as the psalmist said somewhere in Psalm 119: Thy word have I hidden in my heart that I might not sin against thee.

We must not be discouraged but remain established in Christ, the planting of the LORD.

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
In your quote from Daniel 7 did you notice verse 13f?

” ..One like a Son of Man was coming and he came up to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him and to him was given dominion, glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and men of every language might serve him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which will not pass away and his kingdom is one which will not be destroyed”

How many beings are there shown specifically here? Two.
So are they one and the same? No.
Who is this other heavenly being? Jesus Christ, the Son of Man.
Who is the greater being he is presented before?The Father
Who gives him authority and a kingdom? The greater being, the Father.

Any more questions about possible conjoint-being nature or equality between these two beings?

There should not be,surely, if you love scripture.

[Author]

Posts