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Hi t8,
you don't understand me? Scripture does not say Jesus is the Father. It says he is the Son of God. Liljon is convinced Jesus is Yahweh which makes him his own father. So he has taken the 'Oneness' false trail.Quote Nowhere does it say the Son is the same as the Father of the Son. Hi NH,
No trinitarian would make that claim. Unlike pentecostal Oneness theology, they make a distinction between the Father and Son.Hi Is 1.18,
It is fine to say that, but trinity theory says that the Father and the Son are equal and the same in substance. So, in other words the Father is also the Son, because there is no defined separation but they have unity in their substance.So that trinity belief is a form of modalism.
Quote Hi t8,
you don't understand me? Scripture does not say Jesus is the Father. It says he is the Son of God. Liljon is convinced Jesus is Yahweh which makes him his own father. So he has taken the 'Oneness' false trail.Yes true Nick.
I must have been tired when I read it. Makes perfect sense now. I also thought I was replying to someone elses post. Better get some sleep aye!
Yes God is one (1).
Ephesians 4:4-6
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.Jesus is clearly not that God. He is the son of that God. That God is the one true God. He is the Father of Yeshua.
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.Who wants eternal life?
Hi WhatisTrue,
You say there are no other gods. There is one true God but scripture speaks of many others. As in this description of the Antichrist, I believe. Capitals are added by me to reveal but not to magnify.
Dan 11.36
“Then the king will do as he pleases, and he will magnify himself above EVERY OTHER GOD and will speak monstrous things against the GOD OF GODS;and he will prosper until the indignation is finished;for that which is decreed will be done. He will show no regard for the GODS of his father or for the desire of women, nor will he show regard for any other GOD; for he will magnify himself above them all. But instead he will honor a GOD OF FORTRESSES, A GOD whom his fathers did not know; he will honor him with gold, silver, costly stones and treasures. He will take action against the strongest of fortresses with the help of a foreign GOD; he will give great honor to those who acknowledge him and will cause then to rule over the many ,and will parcel out land for a price”Testing to see if I'm loged in yet.
Quote (Guest @ April 12 2005,15:06) First, it should be noted that when one learns the Hebrew numbers, it is echad, not yachid, that is the Hebrew for the number “one”: echad is one, shenayim is two, shalosh is three, arba is four, etc. Any Hebrew grammar book, whether of Biblical or modern Hebrew, would demonstrate that echad, not yachid, is the everyday Hebrew word for the numeral “one”. And when one looks in the Tanakh itself at the frequency and usage of the two words – echad and yachid – it is very quickly and easily seen that echad, not yachid, is in fact the standard Hebrew word for a simple one. Echad is used over 900 times in the Hebrew Bible, making it the most frequently used adjective in the Tanakh. Here are some examples of its usage where the word “one” is translated from echad: “one place” (Gen. 1:9); “one man” (Gen. 42:13); “one law” (Ex. 12:49); “one side” (Ex. 25:12); “one ewe lamb” (Lev. 14:10); “one of his brethren” (Lev. 25:48); “one rod” (Num. 17:3); “one soul” (Num. 31:28); “one of these cities” (Deut. 4:42); “one way” (Deut. 28:7); “one ephah” (1 Sam. 1:24); “one went out into the field” (11 Kings 4:39); “one shepherd” (Ezek. 37:24); “one basket” (Jer. 24:2); “one [thing]” (Ps. 27:4); “Two are better than one” (Ecc. 4:9); “one day or two” (Ezra 10:13).
[/quote]Yes, God is “echad“. God is one, and only one!
Not true Esteban.
Yachid is used to denote absolute singularity, but the hebrew word echad can be used denotatively for compound unity.e.g. Genesis 2:24
For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one (echad) flesh.Two people, one flesh.
We use the english word 'one' in the same way:
“The audience rose as one and applauded the cast….”
Hi Is,
But is God not saying that the two really are one and not a compound unity?
1Cor 6 . 15
“Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For
'the two' He says 'shall become one flesh'
But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with him”Is 1:18 wrote:
Quote Not true Esteban.
Yachid is used to denote absolute singularity, but the hebrew word echad can be used denotatively for compound unity.Quote Yachid, on the other hand, is a very rarely used word in the Tanakh, and it is employed in a special sense when it is used. It is found a grand total of 12 times in the entire Tanakh, three of those times in the same passage (Gen.22, referring to Isaac as Abraham's “only” son), so virtually any argument based on its absence from a Bible text is necessarily weak. Its meaning is restricted to a unique, priceless possession, whether a person or thing (Isaac in Gen. 22:2, 12, 16; one's soul – lit. “only one” – in Ps. 22:20(21), 35:17); or to solitary, desolate, isolated or lonely people (Ps. 25:16, 68:6(7)). There is a “neediness” seen in all that yachid applies to in the Tanakh. YHWH our God is not dependent on anyone. Based on Biblical usage, therefore, it would be entirely inappropriate to use yachid as an adjective for God for any reason. As mentioned in my previous post, “echad”, by definition and by usage, is the most common word for singularity in the older testament.
Quote
Strong's Number: 0259
Definition:
1. one (number)
2. one (number)
3. each, every
4. a certain
5. an (indefinite article)
6. only, once, once for all
7. one…another, the one…the other, one after another, one by one
8. first
9. eleven (in combination), eleventh (ordinal)By the way…
Quote Some make the argument that because echad is used in passages such as Gen. 1:5 (evening and morning were “day one [echad]”, or “first day”), Gen. 2:24 (a husband and wife shall be “one” flesh) and Ezek. 37:17 (two sticks are to become “one” stick), echad is therefore meant to be understood as some kind of a compound unity. To begin with, such examples make up but a very small minority of the uses of echad, the vast majority being of the variety listed above. It is improper exegesis to define a word on the basis of a small percentage of its usage. But even this extreme minority of usage does not mean that echad actually has a different meaning than simply one in these passages. In Gen. 1:5, “day” is the word that has “parts” to it (i.e., “evening” and “morning” make up the day), not echad. In Gen. 2:24, “flesh” acts as the collective noun (what the man and the woman as comprise together). [12] The key factor in all such passages – a factor missing from Deut. 6:4 – is that two or more “parts” are mentioned, such that the reader can immediately discern that there is some kind of “coming together” of the people or things mentioned, usually for just one purpose or goal. Echad, in fact, must maintain its meaning of “just one” for these expressions to convey their intended sense. To make our point clear: Deut. 6:4 does not say, “YHWH our God, though three (or two or whatever plural number you like), is one.” There is no hint of “coming together” here. The verse says that YHWH our God is plainly, simply, one. Think about it. In the entire bible, is God ever described as “three coming together as one”?
Hi. I hope it's okay to go back a few posts. t8 seems to be saying that we are to come out from among the heathen Trinity believers, since they are in error and their works are only of men (or worse), that they are not eligible for eternal life. Am I reading you right?
My experience is that I came to Christ through the ministry of Trinity believers (and was one for many years). It was they who taught me to love the Word of God and it was through my love of God's Word that I discovered that the Trinity wasn't there. Now, the more conservative of my trinity-believing friends think I'm lost (more accurately, I was never really saved), but I don't think that of them. It seems clear to me that God has worked with what was available to Him over the years and there are many (I mean, like, MANY) devoted followers of Christ who believe the trinity because they don't know any different and they would have a hard time believing one person like me when the whole of history and christendom disagrees with me. I don't know why God chose to reveal this truth to me and not to millions of others. I don't think I was any smarter or more submissive or more spiritual than many who haven't figured it out. I'm not saying that God's not concerned about it, but I don't want to be like my trinitarian friends and say that this issue is THE litmus test of salvation.
I'm new here, so sorry if this thought has been covered before. Thanks
Hi stretch,
Welcome to this fourm.
No I am not saying that. I recognise that God's children can also believe in the Trinity doctrine as they can believe in other false doctrines without affecting their salvation. E.g., I consider myself to have a had true and real faith even when I was a believer of that doctrine. I to was converted and brought up in a Trinitarian based fellowship. (Although they never really spoke of that particular doctrine to me much that I can remember.) But I know that God spoke to me and lead me, even when I believed in that doctrine. But my heart was open to God and I was willing to practically do anything to serve and worship him in spirit and truth. Seeing through lies and man made traditions came later as I matured in the faith. But I always believed in the gospel message that Jesus is the messiah from God and that he died for mankind and was raised up and resurrected to heaven.
The point is that when we are born from above, we are not instantaneously revealed all truth, but we learn it as we go through life. If we have the Spirit of God, then the Spirit will lead us into all truth. Not all in one moment, but during our lifetime. If we do not come to the knowledge of the truth, then we cannot be lead can we. But God also doesn't test us beyond what we can endure and we do live in a time of great apostacy and deception and we are all at different levels of maturity.
I often mention Mystery Babylon as being he mother of false religion and I certainly condemn false religion. But it says even of her “Come out of her MY children”. So I am not as ignorant to say that all who believe in the Trinity doctrine are not saved nor are God's children. It is up to God to judge men and he has given judgement to the son. I however judge all THINGS, but I do not condemn anyone. That is for God to do.
I do however believe that the time has come for us to come out of false religions and the traditions of men. God tolerates mens ways at times and he may even turn a blind eye, but other times he calls things into accountability. I think the season today is that God is shaking all things so that which is not of him will fall away.
Jesus is coming back for a bride without spot and blemish. We all have a way to go before that happens. We need to let go of other gods, false teachings and the ways of men. We need to learn how to discern the voice of our shepherd and not listen to the other voices.
I really think that we need to discern spiritual things instead of making everything a physical thing. The Church for example is thought of by many as a building or denomination. But this is not true. It is a temple that God dwells and it is made up of living stones. We are the living stones. No one can say my church or your church. It is Christs. He is the head and he build his church. The church is part of the Kingdom of God and the kingdom is not of this world.
I am simply calling all who call on the name of the Lord to repent and come out of the false teachings of men and turn to the truth. Be lead by the Spirit and we shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, as it is written.
Thanks for your post and I agree with what you say in your second paragraph.
Quote (liljon @ April 16 2005,16:51) 1 John 5:20 and Romans 10 says otherwise
To liljon,Clearly your interpretation says otherwise to the following:
Ephesians 4:4-6
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.Do you want eternal life?
Perhaps liljon you need to see things differently. The truth will not contradict scripture. Your view contradicts the 2 verses I quoted above. It is you who needs to change not scripture. Ignoring or changing those 2 scriptures will not do. You need to believe them. If you do not, then that is your choice.
God's children let the truth change them, rather than trying to change truth to suit themselves.
God is one, not three. God being one doesn't contradict any scripture does it? God as three contradicts many scriptures and worst of all, the first commandment.
Hi stretch,
I could have found out about salvation in Jesus by going to a bookstall and buying a bible and reading it. If so would I then regard the bookstall as a marvellous and holy place because I had found God through it? God has spoken through a donkey before today but donkeys are not any different because of that fact.
God is calling people and He is calling them wherever they are. Those that have ears to hear are listening and responding. If we hear his voice in a Methodist or Catholic setting that is not really relevant as Jesus wants his sheep to follow him.
He leads them through the gate and takes them in and out to find pasture. Those that are listening will start to realise that they have been listening to the voices of strangers and have to choose to stop doing that to follow his voice.
They will start to realise that the teachings of men are foolish and weak in comparison with his and they will choose to follow the Word rather than human doctrines.
They will find that their attitudes and motives become more focussed and they will not be as tolerant of what they realise God does not approve of among his elect.
They may have to leave friends and family behind fellowshipwise because of their new love of the things of God.
So false doctrines are really not the issue. They come out of the situation where we were not yet aware of the truth. When He teaches us the truth then we quickly grasp that they are not of him and move on.Hi Nick,
Learning truth can be a very slow process for most of us. I would think that when most people become saved they are like what Paul calls “babes”. I see Ezekiel 18,(esp.18:21,22),as the gospel message and the new testament telling us why that good news is possible. For me to say I understand all truths in the bible would be a lie. Salvation is something we can receive today, but learning truth will take a life time if not longer. I would have to agree with what T8 has written and what Rudy has written in other posts on this subject. I do however also see your points that you are making.
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