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Hi Evangelion,
Your teachings derive from implication and observation and not of faith. Man is what limits the work of god on earth. God has not said the work of miracles would pass with the death of the last apostle. That is a derivation based on inference and lack of information.How soon did it take for false teachers to destroy the basis of simple faith taught by those apostles? Paul was already fighting tooth and nail against their influence within a few years of the death of Jesus. False doctrine and dilution of true teaching was already rampant and that is what stopped the evidence of God's work among his people.
If you think the gifts are not available then that is what stops you seeking them, and as James says
“You do not have because you do not ask”
Paul and the apostles laid hands on others to receive the Spirit so it was passed on and scripture does not say it changes in character or power. Man fails to take advantage of God's blessings despite how essential they are to the full effective function of the Body of Christ.
The gifts will pass but I think that is when the Body of Christ containing the Spirit is raptured and the Spirit is no longer among men during the tribulation.
Hi liljon, Modem Mouth et al:
Came across this verse yesterday while reading Romans 6 for another thread and thought to share.
Romans 6:10 For the death that he [JESUS] died, he died to sin once for all; but the life that he lives, he lives to God.
We all agree that Jesus lives and reigns. Surely this verse says that he lives to God and collaborates with all the other scriptures that have been presented to that end on this forum. You would have to say that this verse applies only to the period after his resurrection and prior to his ascension in order to nullify it. But in doing so, you would have also nullified that he lives ever more.
He lives to God. We can't take one without the other.
[JESUS] my emphasis.
The writers of these scriptures do not appear to have a Trinity in mind or even know about it. It's like not even an issue with them so they don't address it, defend it or put it forth. They just consistently have the viewpoint that God the Father is God over all, and Jesus is his designee Lord over all others.
Much love and affection to you all.
They also say Jesus is God
Titus 2:13
Romans 9:5
2 Peter 1:1
John 20:28
also, nick, Jesus comes
after the tribulation (MT 24, Mrk 13, Luke 21)Quote (Evangelion @ Mar. 11 2005,05:42) Oh, and just wrapping up my answer to Modem Mouth: what do you believe I Corinthians 13:8-9 is referring to? Quote Of course many of us who have experienced these incredible gifts and will look upon your theory with a great deal of skepticism. Kind Regards
Again: do you know anybody who's capable of performing miracles like the apostles did, like raising people from the dead curing incurable diseases?
Because that's the very least I'll need before I can believe that the Holy Spirit gifts are still available today.
Hi Evangelion,It's not common place, but I have heard of some occurrences of people being raised from the dead. The one that impressed me the most took place, according to the evangelist Reinhard Bonnke, in Nigeria.
The story goes that a young pastor suffered a fatal car accident and was pronounced dead by a physician(s) on arrival to the hospital. His body was then sent to a local mortuary and at least partially, chemically embalmed. Decay of the body had been a big concern due to the tropical heat in Nigeria.
The deceased's wife (I think she said prayed and had a dream regarding Hebrews 11:35) believed Hebrews 11:35:
***
Hbr 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
***
And based on that decided to take the corpse of her husband to a Reinhard Bonnke's crusade, having heard he was somewhere in the region. So, the corpse was taken to this meeting. Reinhard was busy preaching oblivious to all this goings on. The coffin was diverted to another location because frankly, those in charge of the meeting said they feared that it would create a negative stir of sorts, being of little faith.Down in the basement, some zealous ministers decided to go for it so they started praying for this individual. Well, long story short, the pastor reportedly came back to life after days of being dead. The crowd got wind of it and the place was thronged. Reinhard found out about it after the man came back to life. The man had some stories to tell relating to his end of the experience, especially with regards to his after death experiences.
Many testified, including the physician, the mortician etc. The mortician gave his life to Christ and was reportedly saved with his household. I was most affected by his testimony.
It's been at least two years since I heard the story and saw a videotape so it's the best I can do. I am sure that Reinhard's ministry still has video copies of this testimony. My two copies were loaned out and never returned.
Hi Evangelion:
I have a few personal testimonies of the work of the holy spirit regarding healing. I'll post in the holy spirit thread. Please click there.
Hi liljon,
Lk 21.25 says
“There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, men fainting from fear AND THE EXPECTATION OF THE THINGS WHICH ARE COMING UPON THE WORLD;for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.Then you will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory”
Mk 13 24″ But in those days ,after THAT TRIBULATION, the sun will be darkened..” and it is similar in Matt and yet life continues almost normally till his return [Matt 24.67] When he returns he will gather his elect[rapture-Mt 24 31]There is yet to come the wrath of God known as the Great Tribulation I understand, and these early things are only the beginning of the birth pangs. We are not destined to suffer His wrath.
PS we should continue the above discussion in the appropriate forum. By the way liljon you have yet to show me your understanding of Phil 2 which should help you clarify what “God” means.
Good post, Ramblinrose!
Quote But the truth remains Jesus is God Zechriah 14 proves it…Zechariah 14 is not alone also Romans 10, John 1, 1 Cor 1, and Isaiah 7,9,40,and 66. Well, liljon, I read EVERY ONE of those listed chapters and NOT ONE of them proved that Jesus was God. In fact, they tended to prove the VERY OPPOSITE…that Jesus is NOT God!
How on earth did you ever arrive at such a conclusion? Surely you have been indoctrinated by others to the point that you cannot understand the plain text which you read. Would you like to attempt to explain your conclusions?
Quote Jesus is Immnauel God with us. The Father (God) sent the son (God) into the world. I have a website called, “Godiswith.us“. Does this make my website 'God'? I don't think so.
Quote Who was thomas' God? Jesus John 20:28 If I called you God, would that make you God?
Who did Peter say Jesus was? He must have got it right because Jesus gave him the keys of the kingdom of heaven (and told him that His Father in heaven revealed it to him) It's Matthew 16:15-20. Peter said Jesus was “the Christ, the Son of the living God”.
I'm guessing that we are bogged down in semantics. In reality, Jesus, as the Son of God, is a god, per se, just as we will all be gods, as children of God. However, for clarity, when we say God, we are referring to the Creator God, the Father of ALL things (and people), INCLUDING Jesus. He is ONE, and there is no OTHER.
Quote Being sent doesn't necessarily make someone subordinate. Perhaps not, but Jesus is clearly subordinate to His Father:
1 Cor:15:27 For He hath put all things under His feet. But when He saith all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under Him.
15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.I bolded the “H's” in front of all the pronouns that I think refer to the Father. If you get a different rendering, please let me know.
Regardless, scripture is clear that Jesus is subordinate to His Father (as sons usually are subordinate to their fathers), as in, “Not my will, but your will”.
Quote Act 20:26-27.
Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.“All the counsel of God.” That seems pretty comprehensive to me.
ALL refers to YOU and not COUNSEL. It reads:
…”to declare unto you all…” “…the counsel of God…”.
These type of errors are all to common among men who would exact meanings from scripture which just aren't there. Another famous mistake involves misplacing a comma and thereby forming a whole different (and false) doctrine:
Correct: Luke:23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Truthfully, I tell you To day, you shall be with me in paradise.
Incorrect: Luke:23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Truthfully, I tell you,To day you shall be with me in paradise.
Quote Again: do you know anybody who's capable of performing miracles like the apostles did, like raising people from the dead curing incurable diseases? Because that's the very least I'll need before I can believe that the Holy Spirit gifts are still available today.
God has shown me practically every gift of the Holy Spirit. I experienced tongues (my experience would never convince you, but it did me, as it would you, if you experienced it for yourself), the word of wisdom, the word of knowledge, faith, and discerning of spirits. I have heard tongues and interpretation, and I have seen healings, as well as experienced a healing myself and miracles galore. The problem with miracles is that they can usually be 'explained away' as coincidences, good luck, or just scientific anomalies. Only the gift of prophecy has not been revealed to me. I have heard what I perceived to be prophecy but nothing fulfilled and therefore proved to me.
Nevertheless, if it wasn't for God, I would have been killed on at least six occasions, though there are many more than that. I'm not even going to count all of the totalled-out accidents (eight that I can remember offhand) that I have been in and walked away basically unscathed. Praise God for His love and mercy!
At any rate, with all of the close brushes with death that I have had (and what a testimony it is!), God has convinced me of His everlasting presence and has made me very thankful for the hedge that He has placed around me. Why, I really don't know. If He loves me and finds worth in me, there's hope for everybody, of that I'm sure.
Evangelion: The Holy Ghost is alive and well, its POWER undiluted, and expereinced by thousands (if not millions or even billions) of people who have now become BELIEVERS. May you one day experience this life-altering force of God.
My understanding is That Jesus had the same nature as God and was equal be he gave up his place and became a man and a servant.
Philipians 2:6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming to be in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Bic you didn't read them very well
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and you believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.Romans 10:10 For with the heart one believes resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him shall not be put to shame.”
12 For there is no difference between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord of all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For “whosoever shall call upon the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear apart from a preacher
Jesus is YHWH because we call on his name (1 cor 1:2)
John 1
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things came to be through Him, and without Him nothing came to be which has come to be.
Read Isaiah 44:24 and you will find out god was alone in creation.
Isaiah 7 Jesus is God with us
Isaiah 9 He is the Mighty God (YHWH is mighty god Isiah 10:21)
Isaiah 66 16 For with the fire of the Lord all the earth shall be judged, and all flesh with His sword; many shall be slain by the Lord.17 They that sanctify themselves and purify themselves in the gardens, and eat swine's flesh in the porches, and the abominations, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, says the Lord.
18 And I know their works and their imagination. I am going to gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see My glory.
This is the Millenial reign of christ
Luke 23:43 You just can't say something is incorrect.
Read Philipians 1:21-23 because it refutes soul sleeps.
Also I HAVEN”T Been indoctrinated BY ANYONE.
If you called me God but I didn't rebuke it would be blasphemy. Jesus didn't rebuke him because he was God.
Romans 11:36 34 “For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has been His counselor?”35 “Or who has first given to Him, and it shall be repaid to him?”
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things; to Him be the glory forever! Amen.
Jesus is LORD because ALL things were created through him.Hi liljon,
I can see how you could get that interpretation of Phil 2.5f from the New KJV version you use. And all the KJV versions are similar in that regard. But they all lead to the opposite and illogical understanding from all other interpretations.
eg NASB about Christ
” Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, though he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped but emptied himself, taking the form of a bondservant..”
Your New KJV says
“Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, existing in the form of God did not regard it as robbery to be equal with God but made himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant..”Now it is impossible to reconcile these two interpretations at face value but KJV is of an older language form. If you read KJV as it seems you have then there are inconsistencies that emerge.
Your KJV reads that Christ had equality with God, and regarded it as entirely appropriate that he did so. That sound like the attitude Lucifer took, not Christ.
There is no logical sequence between those statements as there is in the NASB.
To exist in the form of God does not in itself state equality but similarity. It reads as though he was proud of his equality-would it be likely then he would give it up?
Why should it be considered as 'robbery' unless the situation was grossly unfair or unjust?
We are advised we should have the same attitude. Since we are advised to have the same attitude as Jesus should we also say that we too are equal with God and deserve to be?? Surely that is blasphemy?But no matter what the answer on this matter do is you agree?
Jesus existed with God in the beginning as both the John and Phil versions say so he could surely not also be that God?
Everything was created through Jesus and not by him?HI, liljon. Rest assured, I DID read those verses very carefully and I read the verses that you just posted above and I can say resolutely that STILL none of those verses say anything about Jesus being God. Let's look at the one which SEEMS to say that Jesus is the Father:
Isaiah:9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Now, even though Jesus' name is not mentioned, it is reasonable to infer that this is indeed a reference to Jesus Christ. If you believe this, then we are in agreement. But read carefully that passage. Please note that NOWHERE does it say that He (the child, the son Jesus) IS any of those titles listed. What it DOES say is that “his name shall be called…”. Now you may not see the distinction (difference) in what you PERCEIVE that it says and what it ACTUALLY says, but I do.
Your understanding of the passage in Philipians has already been answered by Nick so I will skip that one. Nevertheless, it DOESN'T say that Jesus is God (or even equal with God).
Quote Bic you didn't read them very well …that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and you believe in your heart that God has raised Him [Lord Jesus] from the dead, you shall be saved.
Now, if God raised up the Lord Jesus, it is clear that they are two separate entities. So, if you give us that the Father and the Son ARE two distinct entities, then you are saying that God is NOT one. Is that what you are suggesting?
Quote Jesus is YHWH because we call on his name (1 cor 1:2) No, liljon, we call on His name because He is the mediator between God and man:
1 Timothy 2:5: For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
Notice how it says “the MAN Christ Jesus”, NOT God!
Is God a man? NO! MAN is the IMAGE of God. So, we read:
Hebrews:1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his
person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:Jesus is the (express) IMAGE of God, therefore a MAN (actually, THE Man!).
It all seems pretty conclusive to me. How others can see it differently is beyond me. Also, note that He (Jesus) sits down on the right side of the Majesty (God), clearly showing that they are distinct personas.
Once again, I am not debating here the diety of Jesus. I am debating the false doctrine of the Trinity, which says that the HS, Jesus, and the Father are three separate but equal personas of the triune (3 in 1) God. He's three, but He's one, too. Thank God they cleared that up!
The one verse (among a few more just like it) that absolutely shows the relationship that existed between God and His Son at the time of creation is this one:
1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.
Do you notice the CLEAR distinction between God and His Christ Jesus? We exist FOR God but THROUGH Jesus and all of creation comes FROM God but THROUGH Jesus! Do you realize the implication of this verse? It is saying that God SPOKE (gave the command) and that His Son DID (obeyed His Father). This is why God said, “Let US make…”. They worked as a team, in tandem. God, the MASTER (boss), Jesus, the SERVANT (worker). Isn't it hard NOT to see this?
Quote Luke 23:43 You just can't say something is incorrect. Even when it is? You must have had different teachers than I did. If there is no wrong, there's no right.
I'm not saying that scripture is wrong. I'm saying that people wrest scripture:
2 Peter:3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.I know that there are some who wrest (twist) scripture because they are tremendously evil (like their father, Satan). Others, however, and perhaps the majority, do so because of lack of knowledge and/or blindness, being led by the blind.
Nevertheless, in this world that we live in, sometimes light can be very blinding to those who are dwelling in the darkness, and that light may often be unwanted. Blesses are those who seek the light and prefer the light over the darkness. I would say that this characterizes almost everybody that frequents this site. May God's light shine into every heart and heal all that are broken and fill their lives with joy. Amen.
Quote Read Philipians 1:21-23 because it refutes soul sleeps It really doesn't. It takes a lot of imagination to stretch one verse to refute dozens of other verses that say the contrary. Read all of the verses where death is called “sleeping” (even Jesus referred to death as sleep) and then postulate what Paul meant. Is it easy to misunderstand, or what?
liljon, may I ask you a personal question? Are you Catholic? Please don't be offended by me. I'm just curious and I am always looking for a cause and effect. I sure can be wrong, that's for sure. The good news is that I'm in good company.
Hi liljon,
Why so?
If you look up the Greek words translated as “call upon” in 1Cor 1 you will see that they do not suggest “worship” or even “pray to”. So in what way can it be blasphemy?You are not the first to misunderstand.
Mk 14.61f
“…Again the high priest was questioning him, and saying to him
'Are you the Christ,the Son of the Blessed One?'
And Jesus said
'I am and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power,and coming with the clouds of heaven'
Tearing his clothes the high priest said
'What further need do we have of witnesses? You have heard the blasphemy;how does it seem to you?'
And they all condemned him to be deserving of death..”So admitting to be the Son of God is the same as admitting to be that God to some.
Hear the good news liljon.
God has sent His Son as Saviour.Things have changed. Now no one can come to the Father except through him.
Acts 4.12
” And there is salvation in no one else for there is no other name under heaven, by which men can be saved”JOHN 4:1-45: JESUS AND THE SAMARITAN WOMAN.
4Therefore, when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John 2 (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples), 3 He left Judea and departed again to Galilee. 4 But He needed to go through Samaria.
5 So He came to a city of Samaria which is called Sychar, near the plot of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph. 6 Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied from His journey, sat thus by the well. It was about the sixth hour.
7 A woman of Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, “Give Me a drink.” 8 For His disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.
9 Then the woman of Samaria said to Him, “How is it that You, being a Jew, ask a drink from me, a Samaritan woman?” For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.
10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”
———–
“If you knew the gift of God…”
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son..(John 3:16)Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
————
11 The woman said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water? 12 Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?”
13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”
———————Jesus does not mince words here. He clearly was not hesitant to declare that the water that he gives is a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.
To me, it is similar to:
Luk 5:24 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.
————————-15 The woman said to Him, “Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst, nor come here to draw.”
16 Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come here.”
17 The woman answered and said, “I have no husband.”
Jesus said to her, “You have well said, 'I have no husband,' 18 for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; in that you spoke truly.”
19 The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.”
21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”————————
Vs. 19 presented Jesus with a clear opportunity to set the samaritan woman straight. The woman had called him a prophet. Jesus did not deny this.
More than that, Jesus talks about worship, and makes it clear that the Father is the one to be worshipped. He said nothing whatever to imply or suggest that he himself is the father and/or should be worshipped. This in my mind is critical. As always, I view it in light of Revelations 4 and 5 so as to understand clearly.
Thirdly, he includes himself when he says, “we know what we worship,” for salvation is of the Jews. (vs. 22)
————————
25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.”
26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”—————–
Again, as in the case with Peter, has Yahshua missed an opportunity to declare that he is God Almighty, the Most High?
No, he had a chance to reveal himself and said that He is the Messiah. Why then can't we believe him? What is that spirit that wouldn't believe him…?Who are we to say he is other than he says he is? Shall we judge based on what he said or what we would like to convince him he SHOULD have said/meant?
——————
27 And at this point His disciples came, and they marveled that He talked with a woman; yet no one said, “What do You seek?” or, “Why are You talking with her?”
28 The woman then left her waterpot, went her way into the city, and said to the men, 29 “Come, see a Man who told me all things that I ever did. Could this be the Christ?” 30 Then they went out of the city and came to Him.
—————
Notice the gospel that the woman preaches. Though it is put in a question form, she was believed and the others came to check out her story. She did not say anthing about Jesus is the Most High God, but rather, “Could this be the Christ?”—————-
31 In the meantime His disciples urged Him, saying, “Rabbi, eat.”
32 But He said to them, “I have food to eat of which you do not know.”
33 Therefore the disciples said to one another, “Has anyone brought Him anything to eat?”
34 Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work.—————–
That my food would be similar, Lord.
Awesome surrender.
Is this not what is meant by having the mind of Christ?
Is this not what is meant by being one?
And of course it causes me to reflect on what it means to do the Father's will, how that applied to Christ and how that applies to us, even concerning this topic and every other aspect of our lives.
It certainly brings to mind the Garden of Gethsamene and the cross.
——————35 Do you not say, 'There are still four months and then comes the harvest'? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look at the fields, for they are already white for harvest! 36 And he who reaps receives wages, and gathers fruit for eternal life, that both he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together. 37 For in this the saying is true: 'One sows and another reaps.' 38 I sent you to reap that for which you have not labored; others have labored, and you have entered into their labors.”
39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed in Him because of the word of the woman who testified, “He told me all that I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans had come to Him, they urged Him to stay with them; and He stayed there two days. 41 And many more believed because of His own word.
—————-
Again, what was the woman's testimony? What was the message she preached?
And did she say something different other than what Christ has said?
Did Jesus change his story to the rest of the Samaritans or can we confidently conclude that we have been told of what he intended them to know?
What then is the gospel and the message? Where is the Trinity presented in this entire account?
This is the gospel, and not the Nicene Creed…should I say the critical aspect of it that seeks to pollute the truth.———————
42 Then they said to the woman, “Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed *the Christ, the Savior of the world.”
————–
“Not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard him and know…”This is the gospel. Or did Jesus preach to them some other gospel other than what he told the
woman? I believe not.
—————43 Now after the two days He departed from there and went to Galilee. 44 For Jesus Himself testified that a prophet has no honor in his own country. 45 So when He came to Galilee, the Galileans received Him, having seen all the things He did in Jerusalem at the feast; for they also had gone to the feast.
————–
Again, he had no trouble being called a prophet. He himself called himself one. How is it then that some say he is the Most High?Again, I don't dispute he is God, just not the Most High God.
****
ISAIAH 41:22-24
21 “Present your case,” says the Lord.
“Bring forth your strong reasons,” says the King of Jacob.
22 “Let them bring forth and show us what will happen;
Let them show the former things, what they were,
That we may consider them,
And know the latter end of them;
Or declare to us things to come.
23 Show the things that are to come hereafter,
That we may know that you are gods;
Yes, do good or do evil,
That we may be dismayed and see it together.
24 Indeed you are nothing,
And your work is nothing;
He who chooses you is an abomination.
****That appears to be the prerequisite for godhood, and Yahshua certainly over qualifies. Elijah and Moses fit this bill. The bible doesn't speculate on John the Baptist but Jesus says he was the greatest prophet, so he must fit this criteria. Yet, they worship God who works through them, just like Jesus.
————–
Hi cubes,
Lovely post.Yeshua gave up his powers to come to earth as one of us so the work done through him was that of the Father's Spirit just as Moses and the prophets were used of God.
Yeshua is a prophet but the gift of the Spirit he used to know the woman was not married was not the gift of prophecy. Prophecy tells the future. He used the gift of “Word of Knowledge” which reveals truths about people or situations[1Cor 12.8].
Quote (Cubes @ Mar. 16 2005,13:24) Again, as in the case with Peter, has Yahshua missed an opportunity to declare that he is God Almighty, the Most High?
No, he had a chance to reveal himself and said that He is the Messiah. Why then can't we believe him? What is that spirit that wouldn't believe him…?Who are we to say he is other than he says he is? Shall we judge based on what he said or what we would like to convince him he SHOULD have said/meant?
Too true.It seems to me too that many just cannot accept Yeshua's own words about himself. Instead they feel the need to follow tradition and the reasoning of man. I suppose that not all are lead by the Spirit of Truth and we know who the Father of Lies is don't we.
If God is 3 in 1, then Jesus must be 1/3 God, and the father 1/3, and the Spirit of God 1/3 according to Trinitarian Doctrine. This must be very offensive to God who says besides him there is no other. And to whom shall we compare or liken him? Just the idea of the above is very unscriptural. Jesus himself can't be too happy about it, given what he taught and what the entire scriptures say about him.
One would have to quote the entire Bible if need be, but well, we shall have to take it line upon line, precept upon precept.
I submit the entire Hebrews Epistle at this time which deals with Yahshua as our High Priest who ever liveth to make intercession for us (Hebrews 7:24-25).
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Hebrews 5:1,4 For EVERY high priest taken from among men is appointed for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins… And no man takes this honor to himself, but he who is called by God, just as Aaron was.
Hebrew 5:5-6 So also Christ did not glorify himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him:“You are my son, Today I have begotten You.”
As He also says in another place: “you are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.”
Hebrews 5:9-11: And having been perfected, he became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey him, called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,” of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.
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Melchizedek is without genealogy, not born of parents…a king of righteousness and peace. He was not himself the Almighty, but rather a high priest of the Almighty.
Jesus is compared to him. We are also told that he did not appoint himself but was appointed to the role of High Priest by God himself.
His mediation is b/n us in God as has already been stated in this thread somewhere. How then is he that same God that he mediates for? And if so, then Melchizedek should be added to the Trinitarian equation.
Hebrews 6:13: For when God made a promise to Abrahm, because he could swear by no one greater, he swore by himself.
Hebrew 6:16-17: for men indeed swear by the greater, and an oath for confirmation is for them an end of all dispute. Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath.
Hebrews 7:20-21 And inasmuch as he was not made priest without an oath (for they have become priests without an oath , but he with an oath by him who said to him:
“The LORD has sworn and will not relent, 'you are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.”
Mat 23:22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
Just something that came to me while reading Hebrews today.
When God could find no greater to swear by he swore by himself…this was with Abraham.But he also did this in an oath concerning Jesus as High Priest.
Also, when Jesus taught us not to swear, he made it clear that ultimately, it is the Father we offend.
So God did not swear by Jesus, but by– in his view, the highest authority, which was himself.
Thanks for the encouragement, Nick and t8. It is my prayer that many would see the simple, straightforward logic and truth of the gospels. Though, I am learning many things myself.
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