The Trinity Doctrine

[Proclaimer]

Hi Shania,

It's great to meet a searching soul and I believe that you will know the truth because you are seeking from what appears to be an honest heart and I really think that you are literally on your way already. Also your humor is welcome in this very serious subject.  

Below I have attempted to answer your questions. If I haven't answered them fully or if you feel that what I say is irrelevant, then feel free to let me know, because my heart is to know the truth too and if I have to be proven wrong in that process, then so be it.

Quote 1: Jude 1:4- “…Jesus Christ, our only sovereign and Lord”
~Correct me if I'm wrong, but “sovereign” means “most high; highest authority..ect…”  Other verses clearly say that God (Yahweh) is the highest authority.  I'm confused.

You quoted this verse in the NIV version. I have quoted the same verse in 2 other translations.

KJV: Jude 1
4   For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

NASB: Jude 1
4   For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Now the word sovereign in the NIV is translated from the word 'kurios' (supremacy) in the Greek; which means the following: Lord, lord, master, sir, Sir, he to whom a person or thing belongs eg Landlord, about which he has power of deciding; master, the possessor and disposer of a thing, the owner; one who has control of the person, the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor, a title of honor expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants salute their master.

So we can see clearly that the word means sovereign, master or owner and of course we know that God made all things through Christ and for Christ, therefore creation is owned by Christ. Now the important thing to note here is that it says that Jesus is the sovereign Lord or Master Lord and this is consistent with scripture.

In Corinthians 8:5-6 it says
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

So this verse supports the fact that Jesus is our only Lord and the word Lord and God are shown to be different.

I would like to quote something that gl said in another post.

“I myself have been convinced in the unsoundness of the trinity theology and your site has convinced me that the Father is God and Jesus is the Son of God.
The story of Joseph is a great analogy for the relationship between God and his son. Joseph was given the power of Pharaoh by Pharaoh, but Joseph was still subject to Pharaoh. “

Also have another look at Ephesians 4:4-6
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called  
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

In conclusion, God created all things through the Word, who is also known as the Lord. In the New Testament, Lord and God are different and we are told in

Philippians 2:11
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So we will all confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and Jesus built his Church on the truth that he is the Christ and the Son of God (not God) see Matthew 16:16-18. To say that 'Jesus Christ is God' is a different confession and is certainly not the truth/foundation that Jesus built his Church on, but is rather another foundation, the foundation of Christendom, which was not built by Christ but by man.

=============

Quote 2: I Cor 2:15- the spiritual man isn't subject to any man's judgment
~ Other verses say that Christ is the judge– If he wasn't God ( which I'm quite sure of), he was man– God's son.  Am I missing anything?

Yes, I think the thing that you are missing is that Jesus is the Word. He is not God, but the Word and the Word also became a man. He is also known as the mediator between God and Man and we know that the 'Word' pre-existed with God before creation. Jesus judges us not because he is a sinful man, but because he is the Word who is also a righteous man and the power to judge was given to him from the Father.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

and John 5:27
And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

and John 5:22
“For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son,

Acts 10:42
He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead.

Acts 17:31
For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”

(I have more to say about this in the answer to your fourth question below.)

=============

Quote 3: Gal. 3:20– “A mediator does not represent just one party, but God is one”
~three parties, one God? — that's certainly how it appears here.  Understanding, please!

I have to admit that this is the first time that I have consciously read this scripture and it seems hard to understand in the NIV at least. The same scripture in the NASB says Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one.

On the outset, I think that this scripture is talking about Jesus being the Mediator between God and Man. After all the scripture is talking about the law, and the law was given to Man and of course we know that Jesus is the Mediator between God and Man as it says in 1 Timothy 2:5
'For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Maybe someone else can comment on this scripture.

=============

John 8:58–“…Before Abraham was, I am.”

Quote 4: ” ~ I know this has been addressed, but this one is different that all the other “I am statements”, ( btw– I think it's ridiculous to say that Jesus was claiming to be God with these statements- we all say “I am”), because he is saying “before Abraham was, I am”, not,  “I am such and such.” See the difference? It's like he's claiming eternality.  I know that he was in the beginning, but he's not eternal b/c he had a beginning. It would make sense for him to say “I was”–or “I was before Abraham”  I've heard people say that b/c of the Greek language, it could be I am (he), but that clearly doesn't make sense either.  Help!!!! “

I = ego (a primary pronoun of the first person I, my, me
Am =  eimi (to be, to exist, to happen, to be present)

So Jesus was claiming that he existed before Abraham, which of course is consistent with the scriptures. Jesus pre-existed with God, as the Word, (see John1:1). Then in John 1:14, we are then told that the Word, the only begotten of the Father, (not God, as many say) became flesh and dwelt amongst us. So Jesus only claim was that he existed befor
e Abraham and of course we know that Jesus was brought forth before the creation of the universe and the Father created the universe through him. He is in no way claiming that he has always existed.

See Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

& Hebrews 1:5-6
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.”

& Proverbs 8:22-30
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

[Ramblinrose]

Hi all.  It's been a while but I will start my post by finishing off item three from a previous posting of t8's.  Welcome to Shania.

T8 the reply I was working on for point 3.

I have touched on this subject before on this board and whilst my studies are in no way complete, I will post how I see things at this stage.  By posting this to the forum I am wanting to make you think, look, research and come to you own decision – a bone to chew.

—————————————–
3) AND GOD SAID LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE:
——————————————

So far, in my study of this area, I would have to agree with you that God was talking to Jesus when he said:

Genesis 1: 26  Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.
27  So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.”

However,I have added Verse 27 as I believe these verses should be quoted together as verse 27 as it shows that God alone did the creating.  —    It’s as if a discussion took place in regard to how man should be made and then after the discussion God alone did the making.

************
You have also quoted from Proverbs 8.  

22  The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23  I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24  When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25  Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26  While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27  When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28  When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29  When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30  Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31  Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
32  Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.
33  Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
34  Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
35  For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
36  But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

I agree that these versus seem to be speaking about Jesus and I would once again have to point out that he was watching God create, not creating himself.

***********

Keeping in mind that I view God as the creator (which is echoed in the bible all the way through) please notice the capitalised areas in verse 16 from Colossians  (below) which you quoted, and then read from strongs which follows.

Colossians 1:15-16 (English-NIV)
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 FOR BY (1722) HIM all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were CREATED BY (1722)  HIM and for him.

STRONGS Nasgrk: 1722. en en; a prim. prep. denoting position and by impl. instrumentality; in, on, at, by, with:—  

As you can see from Strongs, the word BY could be changed to WITH, which would change the understanding of this verse to mean that Jesus was with God when God created.  It shows he was present at creation which is in keeping with Genesis and Proverbs (as quoted above).

A lot of bibles translate this as THROUGH.    –     Eg. Colossians 1:15-16 (English-NIV) 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For THROUGH him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were THROUGH him and for him.  

I feel that THROUGH is better than BY so long as you understand that he did not do the creating himself.  To use BY makes the reader believe that Jesus created and I don’t believe this is the case.

The verse would now read:
For WITH him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created WITH him and for him.

Lets also change John 1:3
“All things were made WITH him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.”

And again:
Ephesians 3:9  And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things WITH Jesus Christ:

All writings regarding creation show that GOD (Yahweh) is the creator.  As I believe Jesus (Yahshua) to be the Son of God and not GOD then I must establish all versus concerning creation to show that God alone did the creating. The change of by to WITH has made that change in the verses above and in other similar verses. ***
Please note that I am not suggesting that THROUGH or BY should be changed to WITH in all circumstances.  

Psalms 148:5  Let them praise the name of the LORD (Yahweh): for he commanded, and they were created.
Isaiah 45:12  I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
Isaiah 45:18  For thus saith the LORD (Yahweh) that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD (Yahweh); and there is none else.
Malachi 2:10  Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?
Matthew 5:45  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Revelation 4:11  Thou art worthy, O Lord (Yahweh), to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were create
Timothy 6:13  I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
Hebrews 3:4  For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

Paul summarises better in Acts 17 who created and who will judge.  Notice that only God created and not Jesus.  These verses also show, once again, that Jesus and God are two individuals.

24  “God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands.
25  “Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.
26  “And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,
27  “so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
28  “for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His offspring.’
29  “Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising.
30  “Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
31  “because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteo
usness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

Please also  note that Jesus (Yahshua) claimed that GOD (who is his Father) is the creator.  When asked about divorce Jesus replied as follows:

NIV  Mark 10:4-9  
They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away.”
“It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law,” Jesus replied.  “But at the beginning of creation GOD ‘made them male and female.’  ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife and the two will become on flesh’.  So they are no longer two, but one.  Therefore what GOD has jointed together, let man not separate.”

God Bless

PLEASE NOTE THAT I NO LONGER HOLD TO THE BELIEF THAT JESUS PRE-EXISTED. I HAVE NOT EDITED THE ABOVE WRITING AS THIS WOULD AFFECT THE FLOW OF REPLY POSTS.

[Ramblinrose]

Ethan

I disagree with your view that Jesus is God. There is only one God, the Father (Yahweh) and his son is Jesus (Yahshua) and he is the Messiah.

God Bless

[Ramblinrose]

To Shania

Congratulations on searching. I too have been where you are and was glad to find this site. I find t8 wonderful to read, truly a guiding light. Well done t8.

I see t8 has answered most of your questions but I may be able to help with the following one:

Gal. 3:20– "A mediator does not represent just one party, but God is one"
~three parties, one God? — that’s certainly how it appears here. Understanding, please!

First, let us clarify what the dictionary says about mediate.

mediate, mediated, mediating (from medius, middle) 1. to be an intermediary between persons or sides 2. to settle through efforts as an intermediary 3. acting by or connected through some intervening agency – mediation, mediator

Let me put down a couple of different versions:

Gal. 3:15-20
NIV 19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20. A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.

RSV 19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made; and it was ordained by angels through an intermediary. 20 Now an intermediary implies more than one; but God is one.

YLT 19 Why, then, the law? on account of the transgressions it was added, till the seed might come to which the promise hath been made, having been set in order through messengers in the hand of a mediator—
20 and the mediator is not of one, and God is one—

WEY 19 Why then was the Law given? It was imposed later on for the sake of defining sin, until the seed should come to whom God had made the promise; and its details were laid down by a mediator with the help of angels. 20 But there cannot be a mediator where only one individual is concerned. 21 God, however, is only one.

NKJV 19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

AV 19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

The Mediator in the above passage is not Jesus (Yahshua) but Moses. He mediated the laws of God to his people.

A mediator generally mediates for a party, but in this case he is mediating for God who is one. (Again this reflects that there is only one person who is God).

Moses was the mediator of the law, Jesus (Yahshua) is the mediator of the new covenant.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

Hebrews 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

Hebrews 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

I hope this helps.

God Bless.

[Shania]

Hi all-

-this post accidentally got erased, so this is a reinactment. : )-

I really need some help. I have just told my mom that I thought the trinity was not biblical. She reacted like I thought she would. She treated me like a naive child that had just joined a cult. She told me that the scriptures are all in how you interpret them, and since I was the only one doing the interpreting, I needed to go to a trinitarian leader and see what they think. I feel so alone, and scared of the season ahead of me. If any one has any advice, I’ll gladly listen.

(Edited by Shania at 6:41 am on Mar. 10, 2003)

[Proclaimer]

Hi Shania

I guess all you can do is reasure your mom that you are not rebelling, rather you are searching for the truth with honest intent. No one can really complain about seeking the truth with an honest heart. Maybe those around you think that you are rebelling in some way, or you are being deceived. But I would remind them that we become deceived when we do not question and when we do not seek.

Normally when people challenge you on your view of the trinity doctrine, they give you a whole lotta rather vague scriptures and if that doesn't convince you, they assume that you are being deceived. Not very often do you get the chance to show them scripture and ask them to explain it. For example, on this Forum, most of the time RamblinRose and myself and a few others have given credible answers to scriptures that trinatarians use to justify their belief, but they haven't explained the scriptures that we use to say that the Father is the Most High God ( I suspect it is because they cannot ), but I am all ears, as I just want the truth.

You mention that your mother told you to talk to a credible trinitarian leader. Well that is probably a good idea. Before you go, you should arm yourself with scriptures that have convinced you of your non-acceptance of the trinity doctrine and ask him/her to give you an explanation for them. If they cannot, then you have more reason to not believe in the trinity. If however they do give you a perfectly good explanation for these scriptures and fit them into the trinity doctrine with obvious ease and a ring of truth, then let us know about it by posting it here. After all this is not about 'we are right and you are wrong' mentality, rather a persistent, honest deep search for truth and as I have mentioned before I am willing to be proven wrong in order to gain truth, because truth matters more to me than my reputation. I personally realise the importance of eternity and I do not want anything to get in the way of me knowing God more.

Now if your heart is to know truth, then you have nothing to fear. God sees your heart and it pleases him. You can talk to any teacher with confidence, because when you hear the truth and it is obvious to you, then you will change your life in order to align with that truth. This is how we go from glory to glory in God and it is an important part of our walk with Jesus.

So fear nothing, because God will give you the truth if you really want it. Did not Jesus say, Seek and you will find, Knock and the door will open….. So you are just fulfilling Jesus words. No problem. Be bold and press through, it will change you and you will be stronger and if your heart is for God, then how can you turn away.

If you do have a meeting with a trinitarian teacher, I suppose there will be a debate of some kind over scripture and you may find that it takes a similar path as this forum has. Maybe you could print out the Forum by pressing the “Printable Version” button (it takes a while to download all content in a printable format, but be patient). You could then ask the teacher to read the forum as this will save many hours of explanation from you and him/her. After that you could then talk and that talk should be a productive one.

After giving you this advice, I have to say that I know exactly how you feel. When you are out numbered and people think that you are a rebel, you do get a kind of fear in your stomach. When I first questioned, I have to admit that it was pretty scary going against the status quo. But then I realised that Jesus went through the same thing too and he was killed for it. He even asked God to remove this cup as he too had anguish as his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground, but he reaffirmed that it was his Fathers will that was important, not his, (see Luke 22:44). He is our example and our leader who will lead us through the tribulations and into the loving arms of God.

Keep us posted on what happens and remember that we have a choice, we can listen to God or Man. When men say one thing and God says another, then who do you love and fear the most ? The fear of Man is a big fear for many, but the fear of God should make all other fears obsolete and hense as the scripture says Perfect Love casts out all fear and again, God is love.

[Shania]

T8-

   It’s ok about the posting over my post thing- as they say in Austrailia: "no worries."  I edited over it, but I don’t know how accurate it is. I don’t really remember all of what I wrote because I was in such a frenzy; my emotions were pretty high, I was balling the entire time.  Looking back, I don’t know why.  I just kinda felt that I was letting my family down.  But I hadn’t done anything wrong!  Searching for the truth isn’t anything to be ashamed of, but that’s how I felt.  I guess it’s because when I was researching the trinity, trying to back it up to someone, my mom was like, "Why are you searching?  You know  the trinity is right.  Forget about this person; you have nothing to prove to them." (I’m still kind of distancing myself from this person because I want my family to know that this has nothing to do with them(the person) )  
From then on, I kept my search to myself.  Later on after my dad had found out, he told me that I had nothing to be ashamed of.  I talked to him a little about it, but we had to go.  
Anyway, I’m coping better.  I don’t feel quite as alone because I have the Lord as my stength; my ever present help in time of need.
    Thank you for your advice, t8.  I agree that talking to a trinitarian leader is a good idea, I was just upset because my mom discredited my own search of being valid; that I had to be wrong because I wasn’t smart enough, or didn’t have the education.  
Right now, I’m dealing with fears about confronting my peers.  As a leader(at school and chuch), there’s a lot of pressure to have it all under control.  I have to keep reminding myself that I’m living my life to God, I’m doing what I do for Him, not the approval of others.  

Anyway, I’ve blabbed on a lot more that I thought I would, so I’ll see y’all later.

Bye!, and God Bless!

– I edited this because there were some things in here that didn’t really need to be said.

(Edited by Shania at 6:44 am on Mar. 10, 2003)

(Edited by Shania at 3:59 pm on April 26, 2003)

[Proclaimer]

I am glad that your attitude is to still please God and not others despite what you have been through and how you feel. It is commendable when you hold God higher than all your anxieties. I pray that God will give you strength to live your life his way, rather than give into the pressure of those around you.

God allows these trials in our lives to test us and either way, these trials change us and are good for us. If life was easy then we would all be lazy and ultimately we would accomplish very little in this life, because our carnal nature doesn't seek the will of God.

But thank God that life in this world is not forever, rather we pass through this world and suffer it's imperfections and sin. But the light of God is glorious and shines and overcomes the darkness that is in this world.

Those of us that spend our lives searching and learning truth have to suffer those who are ignorant and those who are quick to accuse and judge us. Imagine how Jesus must have felt when the people around him were so hard to teach, even his own disciples were like that. In Matthew 8:26 he says

“You of little faith, why are you so afraid?”

and in Mark 9:19 he says
“O unbelieving generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you?

One thing we need to learn in this life is long suffering. It is a fruit of God's Spirit and something that God wants us to have.

Galatians 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

I know that when we dedicate our lives to the truth, others (even some believers) will persecute you and accuse you. It's a fact that the enemy will try his best to keep you away from seeking truth. But with God's Spirit you can overcome the evil one and this world. It won't be easy at times, but is is sure rewarding and I encourage you to never give up and be zealous toward God. Remember that it is easy to give up and just lean on creeds, but then we have swapped our desire for God's truth, with the words of men and lets face it, anyone can accept a creed if they don't question. There is nothing honourable in the acceptance of the words of men.

Remember: The road of truth maybe a narrow one, but it leads us to the ultimate destination.

Take care and may God bless you because of your faith.

[Proclaimer]

To RamblinRose and others wanting to discuss if Jesus is the creator or not:

I had sometime this Sunday morning and decided to look into the act of creation that you have talked about in previous posts including your post on this page.

16.  For BY him were * all things created * , that are in heaven,and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones,or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created * BY him, and for him:

The first mention of the word BY as you have already mentioned is:

1722 en {en}
a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time – in, by, with.  

The second mention of the word BY is:

1223 dia {dee-ah'}
a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; – 'through' seems to be a fitting word that describes this.

So the verse says that God created and Jesus was present at that place/time and he was the channel in which the process of creation took place.

If we look at John 5:30 (English-NIV), Jesus says:

By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

and in John 8:28
So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know
that I am and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has
taught me.

also in John 10:37
Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does.

and finally in John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

Now these verses are quite clear that Jesus cannot do anything as you have already mentioned and only speaks and does what his Father speaks and does. If Jesus is the channel by which God created all things, then it makes sense that Jesus didn't actually create as you say, but was the reason God created and the path or channel in which God created. If we look at other examples of channels, we can see that the channel cannot indeed do anything of itself. If we look at Radio for example, the actual technology was created by man and his machines but the channels/frequencies are the delivery of that medium. The frequencies on their own are actually useless without the creator and his technology.

Now if Jesus is indeed the channel by which God created all things, then I suppose that it is logical and scriptual to assume that he is the channel by which God would fix creation if it ever broke down. Now how does Jesus actually save us. Well he didn't do anything to save us of his own accord, he saved us by obeying his Father and laying down his own life, even against his own will. So again it is God that is saving us and Jesus is the way/channel that enables God's salvation. This reasoning seems to be in line with the scriptures that talk about salvation coming from God and Christ. See Revelation 7:10

And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

and also 2 Corinthians 5
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Now these 2 verses are commonly used by the trinitarian cults to backup there argument that Jesus is God/Yahweh, when in actual fact they only reinforce that God did it all through Christ and Jesus Christ is the only way that God interacts with his creation. And I suppose it makes sense that if creation was made for Christ, then it belongs to him or he is at least the Landlord or Creationlord but he is not the creator. So it is only through the Lord that we can fellowship with God the builder of all things.

Anyway we know that Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life. The Way literally means The Street, which is a fitting description for channel. So God created all things through that Path or channeled his creative actions through Jesus, The Way. The Truth is of course self explanatory. So God created all through the Person of Truth all other so called ways are lies. The Life; God  created all things through The Life, every other way is dead so they do not exist. There truly is only one way to God. Now the interesting thing about life is that God himself is the source of all life, but he allowed his Son to have that life.

1 John 5:11
And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

and 1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

and finally  John 5:26
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.

So in conclusion I agree that God did all the creating. Jesus was present when God created creation and he did it for Jesus and through him. Although I would perhaps like to discuss the Greek word 'dia' (through/channel) a bit more. Perhaps the complimentary roles of the Father and the Son in the process of salvation are the same roles of the Father and Son when the Father created all things. As creation is to create/build/make and salvation is to create or make things new.

---

John 20:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.  

[SearchingForTheTruth]

Here is a non-ecclesiastical translation of the new testament. This author seems to point out some intresting points against the trinity in the following articles.  non-eccl New Testament: http://hometown.aol.com/egweimi/rel.htm
Article on 1 GOD and his Son:
<a href="http://www.friktech.com/rel/1god.htm

GOD” target=”_blank”>http://www.friktech.com/rel/1god.htm

GOD BLESS

[SearchingForTheTruth]

Here is a non-ecclesiastical translation of the new testament. This author seems to point out some intresting points against the trinity in the following articles.  non-eccl New Testament: http://hometown.aol.com/egweimi/rel.htm
Article on 1 GOD and his Son:
<a href="http://www.friktech.com/rel/1god.htm

GOD” target=”_blank”>http://www.friktech.com/rel/1god.htm

GOD BLESS

[SearchingForTheTruth]

Although I do not beleive in the trinity I was presented with a few scriptures that imply some plurality. If anyone has any thoughts or comments on these I would like to hear them.
Gen. 19:24, "Then the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD out of the heavens." The word "LORD" in the Hebrew is the word YHWH from where we get God’s name, sometimes known as Jehovah. Look at the verse and you will see that there appears to be two Jehovah’s; that is, two LORD’s.
Amos 4:10-11, "I sent among you a plague after the manner of Egypt; Your young men I killed with a sword, Along with your captive horses; I made the stench of your camps come up into your nostrils; Yet you have not returned to Me," Says the LORD. 11"I overthrew [some] of you, As God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, And you were like a firebrand plucked from the burning; Yet you have not returned to Me," Says the LORD."

Is GOD refering to himself in the third person?

GOD BLESS

[Proclaimer]

Interesting 2 verses. I am not sure what the answer is but will have a good look at the Hebrew.

On the outset I think that maybe the first verse is being dictated through the eyes of the writer and he is saying that the LORD rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD (himself).

The second verse uses the name of God YHWH and translates it as LORD as you have pointed out, but I also noticed that the word God is elohiym (God, god, Jesus, angel, idol, mighty one, master, authority). I need to think about this one. In the mean time I don’t think that trinity supporters should rush to use these scriptures to promote their teaching because they say that Jesus is YHWH and given that thinking I just get confused when I read that verse through their eyes.

Anyone else want to say something about these scriptures ?

[Larry Gibbons]

Since you ask, I’ll be only too happy to put in my two cents worth. Notice in Genesis 1:1 and 1:26 God has also spoken of Himself in the plural, “let us.” I think He did that for a reason, that is, to provoke our thinking. Did not God plan from the very beginning to reveal Himself by means of His Son? If so, and it is, for Him to include His Son in all that He had in mind, certainly His speaking of “us” is understandable.  In the beginning was the Word, that is, the plan by which God determined to make Himself known, Christ being the centerpiece. Isaiah 46:10 comes to mind.“My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my good pleasure.”
With respect to Genesis 19:24, take a look at John 3:13. Here is a comment that Barnes, although a Trinitarian, made regarding it: “Which is in heaven. This is a very remarkable expression. Jesus, the Son of man, was then bodily on earth conversing with Nicodemus; yet he declares that he is at the same time in heaven. This can be understood only as referring to the fact that he had two natures–that his divine nature was in heaven, and his human nature on earth. Our Saviour is frequently spoken of in this manner. Comp. Joh 6:62; Joh 6:62; 17:5; 2Co 8:9.  As Jesus was in heaven–as his proper abode was there–he was fitted to speak of heavenly things, and to declare the will of God to man.” Considering that God was indwelling Christ, to speak of him being in heaven and on earth simultaneously should be a given. After all, faith needs no odometer.
That Christ had a dual nature cannot be denied. As II Corn. 5:19 states, “God [Deity] was in Christ [humanity] reconciling the world unto Himself.” Each needed the other. God needed a man; Christ needed the power of God. They were a team, and each can rightfully be declared our savior. This view of the Father/Son union answers questions that are otherwise baffling.
Read the account of Genesis 18 where God in the form of a man spends a day with Abraham; there is much to reflect on in this chapter. If you’re interested, go to our web http://highwaytoheaven.com, click on “One God, Two Names,” and at the end of that article you can access a sub-web article, “God’s Point of View.” It provides a lot of food for thought.
One last point I may have mentioned before.  If God were to have remained known only as Elohiym as in Genesis 1, the definition of that word would leave us with much to understand. But as we see God dealing with mankind in the beginning in Genesis 2:4 He is spoken of as LORD God (Note the capitalization). We see this again in Exodus 3:14, 15 where He revealed Himself to Moses out of the burning bush as “I AM” and made it clear that this was the name by which He was to be remembered and understood by Israel (and later the Church). We find in Genesis 15:2 that Abraham addressed Him as Lord GOD (Note the capitals again). As you may know, two different Hebrew word couplings are both translated identically in English to give us the phrase Lord God, which is why the capitalization is used to distinguish them. Lord GOD (Adonai Jehovah), I am convinced, refers to God the Father. LORD God (Jehohah Elohiym) speaks of the Son, the way God is to be known by His creation. Each of these two different coupling are used consistently throughout the Old Testament close to 300 times. The Hebrew words Adonai and Jehovah are always used of God, never of man, whether when joined together as Lord GOD or when used separately. With regard to LORD God, the Son, the word Jehovah clearly speaks of Deity as does Elohiym when used in this word coupling. However, while Elohiym can speak of God, it is also often used of men. Is not this a picture of God in a man? One God, known in two aspects, as One so supreme as to be unknowable, and in the other as One with whom we can understand and love.
I hope this is helpful. I invite you and any others to visit our website listed above, where much more detail is available. It’s a joy to see others examining this issue, which is admittedly difficult to grasp, considering how our Trinitarian culture can blind even the keenest minds to the truth. May God give us all a humble, searching mind that will increasingly glorify Him.

[Anonymous]

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost: these three are one.
Isaiah 9:6 For unto a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the goverment shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, the mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto themon his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
Isaiah say Jesus would be called Wonderful,Counseller, the mighty God,The everlasting Father, and Prince of Peace.
Matthew say we shall in inherit the of God. To inherit, the owner of that real estate,etc, has to die. So, someone can inherit it.
Yes, I do believe in the Trinity. But, what really matter most is that we all agree that there is only one way to heaven. And the way is Jesus.

[SearchingForTheTruth]

JesusFreak,
I agree with you on there is one way to heaven. The verses you quoted have been answered with very explicit answers if you check back thru the message board. I personally have to say that the arguement for the trinty is very weak and you have to read into the scriptures even to see it.

GOD BLESS

[SearchingForTheTruth]

T8,
Got another difficult verse that I found to be interesting that possible supports the trinity. Take a look at this and tell me what you think.

Genesis 18

The Three Visitors

1 The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
3 He said, "If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, [1] do not pass your servant by. 4 Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash your feet and rest under this tree. 5 Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then go on your way-now that you have come to your servant."
"Very well," they answered, "do as you say."
6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah. "Quick," he said, "get three seahs [2] of fine flour and knead it and bake some bread."
7 Then he ran to the herd and selected a choice, tender calf and gave it to a servant, who hurried to prepare it. 8 He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. While they ate, he stood near them under a tree.
9 "Where is your wife Sarah?" they asked him.
"There, in the tent," he said.
10 Then the LORD [3] said, "I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son."
Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him. 11 Abraham and Sarah were already old and well advanced in years, and Sarah was past the age of childbearing. 12 So Sarah laughed to herself as she thought, "After I am worn out and my master [4] is old, will I now have this pleasure?"
13 Then the LORD said to Abraham, "Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Will I really have a child, now that I am old?’ 14 Is anything too hard for the LORD ? I will return to you at the appointed time next year and Sarah will have a son."
15 Sarah was afraid, so she lied and said, "I did not laugh."
But he said, "Yes, you did laugh."

Notice above it says the LORD which translates Jehovah. Now, Jehovah appeared to Abraham and conversed with him in the form of 3 people?

This passage and the ones I posted above my be something to consider a close look at. Tell me what you think.

GOD BLESS

[Proclaimer]

The first thing that I would like to cover is the title ‘The Three Visitors’. It is clear from the story that there were 3 different people  and my immediate thought was that 2 of the people were Angels. I then read the next chapter and indeed it appears that there are 2 Angels.

Remember that there are no verses or chapters in the original texts, so  if there are no natural divisions in the text, then the last verse of chapter 18 and the first verse in chapter 19 should be read in the same breath so to speak. Especially considering that it is the same story and not the beginning of a new one.

Genesis 18:33
When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.

Genesis 19:1
The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground.

So in my opinion the 3 people were 2 Angels and the person referred to as  Lord (Yahweh). I think that the Lord returned to Heaven to rain down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah and the 2 Angels assisted in helping Lot and his family to escape that judgement.

I will cover the usage of the word LORD (Yahweh) in the next post. I have found this part to be very challenging, but I will write soon.

[SearchingForTheTruth]

T8,
I thank you for your review. Another thing to consider at this point is if GOD cant been seen and is invisiable which no man has seen only the son who revealed him then who was the one considered the LORD? I did notice the same thing stateing that 2 of them were angels, but who was the one called LORD?

GOD BLESS

[Proclaimer]

First I would like to start with the apparent contradictions with the Old and New Testaments.

New Testament
1 John 4:12 (English-NIV)
No one has ever seen God; ….

Or

1 Timothy 1:17 (English-NIV)
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Or

1 Timothy 6:15 (English-NIV)
15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

Old Testament

Genesis 16
13 She gave this name to the LORD who spoke to her: “You are the God who sees me,” for she said, “I have now seen the One who sees me.”

Exodus 3:16
“Go, assemble the elders of Israel and say to them, 'The LORD , the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, appeared to me and said: I have watched over you and have seen what has been done to you in Egypt.

Deuteronomy 5:24
And you said, “The LORD our God has shown us his glory and his majesty, and we have heard his voice from the fire. Today we have seen that a man can live even if God speaks with him.

Ezekiel 43:2
and I saw the glory of the God of Israel coming from the east. His voice was like the roar of rushing waters, and the land was radiant with his glory.

So, how do we reconcile these apparent contradictions between the Old and New Testaments. Well I personally do not think they are contradictions but a difference in detail and revelation.

Take a look at Judges 13:20-22
20 As the flame blazed up from the altar toward heaven, the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame. Seeing this, Manoah and his wife fell with their faces to the ground.
21 When the angel of the LORD did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the LORD .
22 “We are doomed to die!” he said to his wife. “We have seen God!”

Now taken alone, the 'we have seen God' part, seems to indicate that God must be visible, yet we know from the detail here, that they really saw God through a messenger, in this case it was the Angel of the Lord.

When you ask most people with bible knowledge, “who saw God”, most would say Moses and the burning bush incident.

Exodus 3
1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the desert and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.
2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.
3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight-why the bush does not burn up.”
4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!” And Moses said, “Here I am.”
5 “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.”
6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God……………

13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?”
14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am .  This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' ” ………………..

Exodus 4
1 Moses answered, “What if they do not believe me or listen to me and say, 'The LORD did not appear to you'?”

13 But Moses said, “O Lord, please send someone else to do it.”
14 Then the LORD's anger burned against Moses and he said, “What about your brother, Aaron the Levite? I know he can speak well. He is already on his way to meet you, and his heart will be glad when he sees you.
15 You shall speak to him and put words in his mouth; I will help both of you speak and will teach you what to do.
16 He will speak to the people for you, and it will be as if he were your mouth and as if you were God to him.
17 But take this staff in your hand so you can perform miraculous signs with it.”……………..

So did Moses actually see Yahweh, or a representative of Yahweh? Well it is clear that Moses saw an Angel, yet it was the great 'I Am' who was speaking. So it was God, but he was using a messenger as I believe he always does.

Now look at Acts 7:30
“After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.

So in the Old Testament we see obvious examples of Men seeing God and on closer study we actually find that it was a representitive of Yahweh such as the Son of God or an Angel. But I am not sure if the people knew that it was Yahweh's representitive and called him Yahweh because they didn't understand that God is invisible and no man can see him, coupled with the obvious wonderful glory of God that would have been present, or whether they understood that they were seeing and speaking to Yahweh, but through a vessel.

Anyway, in Genesis 19:18 we read
And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my Lord:

The above verse is a conversation between Lot and one of the 2 Angels, yet Lot calls the Angel, 'Lord'. However the Hebrew word here is not Yahweh, but 'adown'. Maybe this is irrelevant, but at least it points out that the word Lord in our modern translations doesn't always refer to the Most High God.

In the next verse below, we are shown that the fire from God destroyed Job's servants and sheep. However when we read the story fully, we know that it was actually Satan who was doing this. But God gave Satan permission to do it, so you can rightly say that God did it in the sense that God allowed it.

Job 1:16
While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, “The fire of God fell from the sky and burned up the sheep and the servants, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

So why are the Old and new Testaments different in detail with regards to God? The Old Testament seems to call the Son of God and Angels, God (even Yahweh, the name of God), when God spoke through them. Yet we do not find this kind of language in the New Testament.

I believe when the invisible God (Spirit) converses with men, He always uses a vessel/servant/messenger. If he did appear to men, they would surely die as no man can look upon God and live (I couldn't find that scripture, can someone help), in the meantime I will quote 1 John 4:12
No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.

So when a messenger from God appears in the Old Testament the person acknowledges that they have seen God and spoken to him and indeed they have. They have seen a visible image of the invisible God and they can quite rightly say that they have seen God, or at least the glory of God. Now if we look at what Yashua said to his disciples in John 14:8-9  
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'?

and in Colossians 1:12-16
He is the image of the invisible God……

So I believe that we cannot really see the invisible God, but we can see his express image, who is Yashua. When we also
see a Holy Angel we can also see the invisible God and for that matter, even when we look at his creation/universe we see his glory. Psalm 19
1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

So I think that the Old Testament people who saw God really saw the invisible God through a visible vessel and they conversed with God through the same vessel. Even Jesus said in John 12
49 For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.

So in light of this thought, we can say that we have seen God if we have seen Jesus. But to actually say that Jesus is that God is a different matter entirely.

Now God is light and when we think about physical light we know that it is invisible or white in colour, which is actually all the colours combined. So if we compare God to physical light and then think about a crystal or prism (a physical created thing), it can reflect that light in all it's glory. Yet the crystal or prism is not that light, but only reflects it and shows it's glory. But without the light, the object itself can be quite dull. This is why we shouldn't do things in our own strength. We need only to be transparent before God and shine his light. We are meant to reflect God's light/glory and character and so are angels. But we reflect only in part and together as the Bride of Christ, we will reflect Yahshua in full and we will become a suitable bride for the bridegroom. On the other hand Yahshua the bridegroom, reflects all of God's glory and he is radiance of God's glory according to Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being…

Acts 7:2
To this he replied: “Brothers and fathers, listen to me! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham while he was still in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran.

So when we see God's Glory we see it through something visible and it is the glory that we often call God, but there is always a messenger or vessel present. This is why Yashua is the mediator between God and Men. Without Yahshua, we couldn't even hope to know God and see his glory in full.

So why the different way of thinking when we compare the Old and New Testaments. Well I think it is quite simple really. Those who lived under the old covenant saw things not as clearly as we who live under the new covenant. They saw and wrote about the truth, but they didn't have the same revelation that we do today to fully understand it. Today the revelation is a lot greater and according to ??? the prophets of old hoped to see the things that we have today. So it stands to reason that the New Testament would be more specific (as apposed to more accurate) because of the greater degree of revelation and glory.

Now if we removed all references to Angels and Christ in the verses that record when men saw God in the Old Testament, then we could conclude that God certainly did appear visibly to Men, but would that make it correct. On closer inspection of the detail, we see in most cases that it was really a representitive of God that they saw and the glory and light of God.

Now if we take the scriptures that only mention that God appeared to a man with no references to an Angel or Christ, such as Genesis 18 (The Three Visitors), then can we say without any doubt that it was certainly the 'Most High' and might I add 'Invisible God' that appeared, or can we just assume from all the other scriptures and patterns that we have looked at that it was most likely a messenger of God that they saw and it must be noted that it was actually 3 men of which 2 were angels, so even the angels were being represented in human bodies. Just because there is no specific detail about a messenger, doesn't mean that the 3rd person wasn't a messenger and I think if we follow all other scripture and the pattern with regards to God appearing to men in the form of a messenger, then we cannot throw everything out based on a few scriptures that seem to contradict, especially if all scripture is in agreement. We must use scripture to interpret scripture and then it acts as a witness to truth. This is important because some scripture can be taken the wrong way, if not weighed up with other scripture given that we can sometimes interpret a scripture in a number of different ways. See Deuteronomy 19:15

One witness is not enough to convict a man accused of any crime or offense he may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

and Matthew 18:16
But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

Anyway, I personally think that it was the Son of God in a human body, that appeared on behalf of Yahweh himself. Remember that the Son of God came to earth 2000 years ago as a man and lived among us. His prophetic name translated means 'God with us'. Yet we know that Yashua is not Yahweh, rather Yahweh was with us because He was in Christ/Yashua redeeming the world back to himself.

Now I want to remind you of the Book of Revelation. It is the Revelation of God to man right! But we also know that God gave the revelation to Christ who gave it to the Angel and in turn passed it on to John (Revelation 1:1), yet we read quotes from God's own mouth (so to speak) through out the book. Now in my opinion, the Book of Revelation is certainly very specific and full of revelation even compared to the other books and here we see quite clearly that God spoke to John though a particular order of messengers, which I assume is how he delivered other revelations to the likes of Moses and Elijah for example. Now lets imagine that Revelation 1:1 wasn't included in the book, we could upon first glance believe that John was talking to God, and of course he was, but if the detail about the messengers were omitted, then people could easily believe that John actually saw and spoke to God/Yahweh. Yet because this book has included such detail, we know that it is God appearing though a messenger. So just because other scriptures may not include such detail, we cannot say without a doubt that someone actually saw the Invisible God especially when weighed up against other encounters with God, where a messenger was present.

If we take a look at The Mount of Transfiguration event, we know that Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus in heavenly glory. And a voice said “This is my Son, in whom I am well pleased”. Now lets assume that one day you saw Jesus, Moses and Elijah in heavenly glory and then you heard a voice like thunder speak to you. Lets also assume that you lived under the Old Covenant and lived say in the time of the Prophets. How would you report this incident. Maybe you would say that you saw God/Yahweh and you wouldn't be wrong in saying such a thing. But it would be very hard to be specific with the amount of revelation in those days and further more if you wrote down such an incident, I could imagine that people would use this event to prove the trinity  (and they would be wrong), yet all 3 messengers in this imaginary scenario were not Yahweh in the sense that Yahweh has a body, rather vessels that Yahweh uses in order to be seen and understood.

I think that this accurately reflects what has happened with peoples understanding of God. They  try to understand Old Testament events, with New Testament revelation without understanding the fact that people back then did not
have the same scriptures and revelation that we have today. I also think that this is one of the main reasons why people believe in the trinity doctrine. They do not think about the differences and levels of revelation between the 2 covenants and this lack of understanding leads some people to imagine an idol made with their own mind in order to make God fit into their understanding of scripture both from the Old and New Testaments. You will find that the most common scriptures that people use to support the trinity doctrine are actually from the Old Testament and they ignore a whole lot of New testament scriptures. Yet the Jews who have read the Old Testament for millenia did not even remotely consider God to be a trinity. When we look at all the scriptures and study them in order to seek the truth, I think that we have to admit that the 2 covenants must be read with the understanding that the new covenant is the greater revelation and we must see the old with the new and the new with the old.

So can God appear in a body. Well yes, because his power knows no limit, but he cannot be fully contained within a body. He is eternal, from everlasting to everlasting. He exists in and outside of creation and is above all dimensions of which we understand only 3 and some think they understand the 4th. So how can the Most High God be seen by men, who are so limited in every way. Well more often than not, he reveals himself through 3 dimensional vessels such as a person or he speaks through vessels such as angels and on at least one occasion a donkey. But if we really think about it, he shows himself in such ways, so our limited minds can converse with him . So if God uses a donkey to talk to me, then have I seen God or is it the vessel that I am looking at? Perhaps the glory and light that may be present is God as God is light and he is spirit.

In conclusion I leave you with John 14:10
Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

I think this verse shows us the true pattern of how Yahweh speaks and reveals himself though visible vessels and in particular the Son of God, who is the visible representation of the invisible God.

PS
I could imagine that some reading this writing, may think this to be a long winded piece of writing that is trying to prove that men cannot see God against certain Old Testament scriptures that say that Men did see God. In defense of this, I would remind such a person that the Old and New Testaments cannot conflict or contradict and I think that if you argue that men did see God as he is, then you have to accept that the Old and New Testaments conflict and I have tried to show that they don't. What we really see is that the New Testament is more specific in detail and if such detail is not mentioned in some Old Testament scriptures, then such an omition isn't proof that this detail isn't true. e.g If I report that I saw a bank robbery and I don't mention that the car, that the bank robbers drove away in was red, then you cannot say from reading such scant detail that the car wasn't red. But if other witnesses said they saw a red car, then we can read the first testimony in light of the others to get an accurate picture. We also need to do this with scripture.

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John 1:34
I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God.”

I have now posted a new page based on this one Post. It goes into more detail.
https://heavennet.net/answers/answer33.htm

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