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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 09 2005,01:23) Hi E,
It should be no surprise to anyone familiar with the bible and the maening of given names that “satan” means “adversary” but it does not mean “an adversary”. That is his attitude to the things of God and his role in the affairs of men.Oops, just realised that I confused “satan” (meaning “adversary”) with “diabolos” (meaning “false accuser.”)
Anyway… I don't see that you've proved anything significant here.
Quote Likewise your opinion about the role of the Holy Spirit's gifts ceasing at the end of the first century AD is just that – an opinion. You reckon? The early church fathers of the post-apostolic era were unanimous in their agreement that the gifts of the Spirit were no longer available. They looked high and low, but found nobody who was still capable of performing miracles.
Quote And it is one with no Biblical support. - I Corinthians 13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.Quote Anyone who thinks today's generation is any less in need of the power of God to set free from disease and demon influence is spiritually blind. Disease? Yes. Demonic influence? No.
Quote But if you do not seek these gifts then that is exactly what you will be-pitifully spiritually blind and unable to recognise the attacks of “the adversary” I'll take my chances.
Quote (Evangelion @ Mar. 09 2005,01:53) I Corinthians 13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
EL,
No offense but…thats it? That's your proof that the gifts are not for today? You must admit that's a very weak argument. If you maintain and want to convince others that the gifts ceased in the post-apostolic era, then you must provide more convincing biblical evidence.1 Co 13
8Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.If you read on two further verses, you will see that Paul explains exactly when the gifts will cease.
Of course many of us who have experienced these incredible gifts and will look upon your theory with a great deal of skepticism.
Kind Regards
Hi E,
Yours are chosen beliefs.They are not provable as they are not based on what is revealed but what you choose to believe. Your foundation in these matters is not what the bible teaches but what your denomination teaches. That also makes you even less likely to respond to the revealed truth than others.
As they are new teachings from outside of revelation we are right to be wary of them as they cannot withstand the usual honest scriptural analysis. Neither should we attempt to follow the tortuous path to these understandings as it takes up off the safe path of simplicity.
This forum attempts to define truth from what is revealed about these matters and not what we choose to believe. That is what God wants from His servants.
Hi E,
We were predestined to become sons of God by adoption.[Eph 1.5]This is because we are not such by right and that includes the Israelites[Rom 9.4]
But the Spirit of Adoption is the Holy Spirit.
Gal 4.5F
” ..so that he might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts CRYING 'Abba! Father!”
Rom 8.14f
” For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons BY WHICH WE CRY OUT 'Abba! Father! The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,..”
Rom 8.23
” And not only this ,but also we ourselves ,HAVING THE FIRST FRUITS OF THE SPIRIT, even we ourselves groan within ourselves ,waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body”The calling on our new Father is the fruit of the Spirit of God.
liljon,
Whom did Jews call their God? YHWH.
Whom did Jesus call his father?
John 8:54 Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God.
You see? Jesus called YHWH his father. Jesus never said that he is YHWH. Jesus never said that he is God or equal to God. He consistently taught quite the opposite – that he is God's son and that God is greater than he. All the glory, power, and knowledge that Jesus has is given by God YHWH, his Father.
No, they are one being YHWH
Who was thomas' God? Jesus John 20:28
Being sent doesn't necessarily make someone subordinate.
Hi liljon,
When you say “one” you mean “one and the same”Scripture does not agree with you.
Yeshua is the Son of God.
His life was given to him by his Father.
He is not the same substance as his Father.
What son has natural authority over his father?
Scripture says we should “honor our father and our mother”
What son is equal with his father?
Yeshua said “My Father is greater than I”
Yeshua submitted himself to his Father.
He obeys his Father unto death and forever.
He knows less than his Father.
He is subservient to his God, the Greater being, the Father whom the Jews call God.
Hi liljon,
MATT 25.39f
” ..My Father, if it is possible , let this cup pass from me;yet not as I will but as thou wilt…..….My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, thy will be done”
How many beings involved here? two
How many wills ? two
Whose will was chosen? The Father's
Who was subservient? The SonYour theory about God would say Yeshua was only doing this for show.
You would say they are one so have only one will.
You would have to say Yeshua was talking to his alter ego or himself.I think scripture shows a different situation. One terrified being pleading with the other superior being for mercy, but eventually accepting that it was not possible to escape his fate.
jesus BECAME subordinate because he became a man.
Philipians 2:6-9
AGAIN Thomas says jesus is God John 20:28
Jesus is YHWH Zechariah 14 and Romans 10Hi Liljon,
Phil 2 does not say Jesus was equal with God does it?Besides if he can be compared with God before he was born then he cannot be that God can he?
The exclamation of an apostle is not a strong argument to say the Jesus was his own Father is it?
Hi liljon and cubes,
Liljon can you show me how your version of Phil 2 says Jesus had equality with the Father?Quote (Evangelion @ Mar. 08 2005,22:34) Quote (Cubes @ Mar. 01 2005,17:03) Quote (Evangelion @ Mar. 01 2005,15:15) By Evangelion: “Um, we don't deny the reality of the Holy Spirit. And I see no evidence that you have to believe in Satan in order to be a true Christian.”
Hi Evangelion,Good that you stopped by. And thank God that you don't deny the reality of the Holy Spirit. Could it be it is the gifts you don't believe in or is Nick entirely misinformed? This would be a good time to clear it up. Perhaps in the Holy Spirit thread.
We don't deny the reality of the gifts; we simply don't believe that God has given them to modern day believers. The gifts ceased after fulfilling their purpose in the 1st Century AD.
Quote As for Satan, I guess the question is not that we believe in him in the same way we believe in God, but could you say he exists given the fact that he was in the wilderness tempting Jesus and countless other mentions of him? No, I would only say that somebody was in the desert tempting Jesus. The word “Satan” isn't a proper name; it's simply a noun which means “false accuser.” We see from Jesus' own application of it to Peter (“Get thee behind me, Satan!”) that it can be applied to anyone who opposes another.
Quote Is there a being called Satan, according to your belief? Nope.
Quote What other ways does your belief differ from mainstream christianity? Best way to tell you that is show you my confession of faith.
Click here.
Hi Evangelion:If the gifts ceased, how do I explain the healings in my own life and that of others that I know whose healings came about miraculously, not to mention the countless testimonies I've heard from others of varying types?
With regards to Satan, who is the dragon spoken of in Revelations 12 for instance…if there is no particular individual to whom the bible refers?
Please respond in the Holy Spirit thread. And we can start a new thread for satan if one doesn't exist. Satan/Devil is not my favorite subject so I really don't have too much more to say about that. I know that we have an adversary, that we do not war against flesh and blood, that Jesus is going to take him down and that is enough.
Quote (Guest @ Mar. 06 2005,03:55) Cubes,Feb. wrote:Quote Now on that day, it would be Jesus returning to earth like a thief in the night to take his saints with him, but it IS nevertheless, the day of the LORD (Father) as per Isaiah 61:1-2. Don't forget that Jesus says that only the Father knows of that day. But the Father has put Christ in charge of it, so he will be standing in proxy to the Father as he does in all things. Hello Cubes,
You have made some good points in this post. Thank you for taking the time.Basically, for me it comes down to this. If I were to read this chapter without running it through my theological filter (what ever that may be), I would still logically deduce that Jesus is YHWH. BTW, im not saying here that I believe Jesus to be the father, that would be absurd. Im only saying that Jesus anf the Father are of the same kind and share the same name. Why wasn't the title servant or Lord used here, like is is in the later chapters of Isaiah? That would surely settle the matter, but it wasnt.
Also this is not a chapter in isolation, as ive previously posted many OT passages that speak of YHWH are applied exclusively to Jesus by NY writers. It makes me wonder.
Quote Also, here are some interesting facts about glory, so that when we exalt Jesus, it is ultimately to the Father's glory. He wants us to dig his son (to put it in 1970s terms). He is awfully proud of his son and likes to show him off (this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased). If that is not a proud papa, I don't know of another. Isa 42
I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.cf
John 2:11
This, the first of his miraculous signs, Jesus performed in Cana of Galilee. He thus revealed his glory, and his disciples put their faith in him.John 8:54
Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.John 11:4
When he heard this, Jesus said, “This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God's glory so that God's Son may be glorified through it.”John 11:40
Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believed, you would see the glory of God?”John 12:41
Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.kind regards.
Hi Modem Mouth:So sorry, I missed your post and might have missed it entirely had I not gone back to check on something else a few minutes ago.
With regards as to whether or not Jesus is Yahweh, I was willing to consider that possibility but t8 brought Psalm 2:7 to light. Yahshua has not begotten a son, therefore, the scripture must mean the father. A view supported by Ps 45:6-7. I'll go back and review some of your posts referring to YHWH and get back to you later.
With regards to the glory of God, my understanding is that the father exalted Jesus and as it is written, “let all the angels of God worship him.” Hebrews 1:6b. Also, I bear in mind Revelations 5:8 where the elders, living creatures fell down before the Lamb and sing him a new song (NKJV).
What I am gathering from it is that Jesus is exalted and praised but not worshiped by them, they acknowlege him in the context and understanding that God Almighty is the one who made everything and is the Father of Christ. Therefore, in those same chapters (Rev 4 & 5), it is the Father who is worshiped, the one before whom they cast their crowns.
The worshippers give reasons: one is worshipped for simply being, and for being creator and sustainer of everything, whereas his son is exalted for redeeming us to our God.
It makes me think about what worship is all about: If someone does something great for me and I thank and praise him, it is not wrong as long as in my heart I acknowledge that it is the Father who is the giver of all good things and that the good shown me is from him (Psalm 103).
On the other hand if I see the person as being the alpha and omega of the good done, I have robbed God of his glory.
I don't have this down myself, but I am in pursuit of God and how best to worship him.
I would be confused by Revelations 5 had Jesus himself not said the things he said of himself and his God [Father]. At the end of the day, I rest on his own testimony.
Looking forward to your response.
Quote (Guest @ Mar. 09 2005,03:17) Quote (Evangelion @ Mar. 09 2005,01:53) I Corinthians 13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
EL,
No offense but…thats it? That's your proof that the gifts are not for today? You must admit that's a very weak argument.
No, that's not it – that's just a starting point.Quote If you maintain and want to convince others that the gifts ceased in the post-apostolic era, then you must provide more convincing biblical evidence. Scripture makes it clear that only the apostles were capable of passing on the Holy Spirit (see Acts 8 for an example), and that those who had received it from them did not possess this ability. Thus, the guidance of the Holy Spirit ended with the death of the last man who possessed it (whoever he may have been.)
But if you know somebody who's capable of performing miracles like the apostles did – eg. raising people from the dead, curing incurable diseases, etc. – I'd sure love to meet 'em. 😉
Quote 1 Co 13
8Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.If you read on two further verses, you will see that Paul explains exactly when the gifts will cease.
Yep, “when that which is perfect is come.” By which he referred to a full understanding of the Christianmessage.
Remember, Christ had promised that the Holy Spirit would “lead you into all truth.” Once this was done, there was no more need for the presence of the Holy Spirit.
(Notice also that this requires a change of emphasis from Spirit-guided men, to the letters of the apostles, since their writings would necessarily become the touchstone of orthodoxy. That is why Peter and Paul take great pains to assure their readers that their letters are inspired by God Himself.)
I believe that by the end of the 1st Century AD, the Church had everything it needed to know about God and His purpose, and that there was no need for further doctrinal development.
Indeed, as his own life drew to a close, Paul himself appears to sense that this age of maturity is not far off:
- Act 20:26-27.
Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.“All the counsel of God.” That seems pretty comprehensive to me.
Again, when writing to Timothy, Paul seems to breath a sigh of relief not unmingled with fatigue:
- II Timothy 4:7.
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:He considers his own work to be finished. Now it will be left to other men; hence his exhortation in Acts 20:26-27…
- Acts 20:28-30.
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.…which, interestingly enough, speaks of the schisms that would later beset the body of Christ.
And of course, these were less easily dealt with in the absence of men who possessed the Holy Spirit, which is why Paul instructs the readers of his epistles to hold fast to the teachings that they have received from Christ, through him.
This is because Paul knows that the gospel of Christ is…
- the power of God unto salvation
…as we read in Romans 1:6.
And if the gospel of Christ is “the power of God unto salvation” (as Paul clearly states), we have no need of any further theological development! (After all, how could anyone possibly improve on a message that is already capable of providing salvation…?)
So that's the fulfillment of I Corinthians 13:8-9, right there.
Oh, and just wrapping up my answer to Modem Mouth: what do you believe I Corinthians 13:8-9 is referring to?
Quote Of course many of us who have experienced these incredible gifts and will look upon your theory with a great deal of skepticism. Kind Regards
Again: do you know anybody who's capable of performing miracles like the apostles did, like raising people from the dead curing incurable diseases?
Because that's the very least I'll need before I can believe that the Holy Spirit gifts are still available today.
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