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Hi BE,
1 Cor 15 says
” 'The first Adam became a living soul' The last Adam became A life giving spirit”-
not “life giving Spirit” but
“A life giving spirit”.The word “A' is important as it indicates he did not become THE Spirit but the source of that Spirit as life giving water for us.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 21 2005,20:57) Hi BE,
1 Cor 15 says
” 'The first Adam became a living soul' The last Adam became A life giving spirit”-
not “life giving Spirit” but
“A life giving spirit”.The word “A' is important as it indicates he did not become THE Spirit but the source of that Spirit as life giving water for us.
The word “A” does not appear in the Greek my friend.But let us suppose for the sake of argument that an “A” is indeed intended to be implied. Does this change anything? Well no it doesn't. Paul did not distinguish between Spirit and spirit. Nobody in the Bible did. This is a modern captialization notion that did not exist in that day.
Secondly, you still have to contend with Acts 2:33 (and other verses like Rom 1:4 and 1 Peter 3:18) which is in reference to the resurrection and is dealing with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. The ONLY thing it can sensibly mean in context is that Jesus was raised bodily in the Spirit such that his selfsame body became Holy Spirit and we who are in him, in his BODY as members of that Spiritual body, may partake of that Spirit because we are in him who is Spirit. Same idea at Acts 13:30-33. TODAY, I have begotten you. Jesus is the firstBORN out of the dead; Spirit begets what?
Thanks BE,
What then of the heavenly body of Jesus and us? Are you saying it does not exist?
1 cor 15.35-54Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 21 2005,21:19) Thanks BE,
What then of the heavenly body of Jesus and us? Are you saying it does not exist?
1 cor 15.35-54
What do you mean by “heavenly body” Nick?In Scripture, our heavenly body IS our resurrection body. It is the same body we now have but it is immortalized by becoming one with the Holy Spirit of God.
Hi BE,
1Cor 15.44
“So also with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body
It is sown in dishonor , it is raised in glory
It is sown in weakness , it is raised in power
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body”I think scripture is clear here that when we[ the saved in the first resurrection] are resurrected into a body it is a new, glorious , imperishable, powerful BODY
v51
” Behold I tell, you a mystery;we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,in a moment,, in the twinkling of an eye ,at the last trumpet;for the trumpet shal;l sound and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality”Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 21 2005,21:56) Hi BE,
1Cor 15.44
“So also with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body
It is sown in dishonor , it is raised in glory
It is sown in weakness , it is raised in power
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body”I think scripture is clear here that when we[ the saved in the first resurrection] are resurrected into a body it is a new, glorious , imperishable, powerful BODY
v51
” Behold I tell, you a mystery;we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,in a moment,, in the twinkling of an eye ,at the last trumpet;for the trumpet shal;l sound and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality”
It is clear if you read it closely Nice that our own selfsame bodies that we now have are renewed in the resurrection and changed from mortal bodies into immortal bodies by being made into spiritual bodies. Our own mortal body is the seed which becomes this renewed body. Our old bodies are RAISED from the dead and glorified into immortality by the power of God, the Holy Spirit.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 21 2005,21:56) Hi BE,
1Cor 15.44
“So also with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body
It is sown in dishonor , it is raised in glory
It is sown in weakness , it is raised in power
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body”I think scripture is clear here that when we[ the saved in the first resurrection] are resurrected into a body it is a new, glorious , imperishable, powerful BODY
v51
” Behold I tell, you a mystery;we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,in a moment,, in the twinkling of an eye ,at the last trumpet;for the trumpet shal;l sound and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality”
It is clear, if you read the entire passage closely Nick, that our own selfsame bodies that we now have are renewed in the resurrection and changed from mortal bodies into immortal bodies by being made into spiritual bodies. Our own mortal body is the seed which becomes this renewed body. Our old bodies are RAISED from the dead and glorified into immortality by the power of God, the Holy Spirit. Paul also likens our resurrection to Jesus' own resurrection and indicates what happened to him is what will happen to us. His risen body was the same physical body and it had become also a spiritual body.For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform our humble body into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself. (philippians 3:20-21).
We shall be like him for we shall see him as he is.
IT is the same IT.
IT is sown in dishonor , IT is raised in glory
IT is sown in weakness , IT is raised in power
IT is sown a natural body, IT is raised a spiritual body.Our bodies are CHANGED not discarded for new ones.
Hi BE
We have new imperishable bodies put over the old perishable one. Jesus was definitely resurrected into his old PERISHABLE BODY full of holes. I believe he had the new put over the old when he was taken up just as we will if we alive alive and taken up to meet with the Lord in the air.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 21 2005,22:34) Hi BE
We have new imperishable bodies put over the old perishable one. Jesus was definitely resurrected into his old PERISHABLE BODY full of holes. I believe he had the new put over the old when he was taken up just as we will if we alive alive and taken up to meet with the Lord in the air.
That would be called being clothed in the SPIRIT, putting on Christ, being clothed with the NEW MAN, the NEW ADAM…. who is…“Life-giving Spirit”
“The Lord IS the Spirit”
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 21 2005,23:51) Hi BE,
Spirit is not Body.
That's just what the Gnostics always insisted against the Chirstians Nick and the entire reason they rejected the notion of the resurrection body.But that is the miracle of the resurrection; the two become one, spirit and flesh.
Since you say spirit and body are mutually exclusive things, not only in this age but in the age to come, please reconcile for me these two passages and then perhaps you will see:
1. See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” (Luke 24:39).
2. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. (1 Corinthians 15:44-45; v. 45 translated as you like it).
Can you reconcile these two passages with your own theology?
Hi BE,
The first scripture was saying that a 'spirit' can exist without a body. It may be visible but as it is not physical it is not palpable. This is not the true spirit of man but a contemporary use of the word still in vogue today.
The first human body was that of earth belonging to Adam and the breath of God was infused into him to make him a living being.
The Logos did not have a human body till he was born of Mary and became the second Adam from heaven.
When he was raised back into heaven he acquired a new imperishable body which was put over his natural body. This was because his natural flesh and blood body could not inherit the Kingdom of God so that death could be swallowed up in victory. He needed to be changed just as we need to be. He has now become a life giving spirit that is given to us that we might share in that eternal life. Like him we will all receive a similar individual imperishable body so we too can inherit the Kingdom.Hi BE,
If you sow a seed what remains of the seed when the shoot grows and the plant develops.
Almost nothing.
We put on the new man before we die.
We are born into Yeshua through baptism [we are clothed with Christ gal 3.27]
and he is painfully born into us [gal 4.19]
by the renewing of our hearts and minds[rom 12.2]
by the work of the Spirit till we may say with Paul
” It is no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me” [gal 2.20].Hi BE,
If a person is just a body with a spirit then we have nothing to fear from the warning given by Jesus?Mt 10.28″ Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul;but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell”
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 22 2005,00:40) Hi BE,
The first scripture was saying that a 'spirit' can exist without a body. It may be visible but as it is not physical it is not palpable. This is not the true spirit of man but a contemporary use of the word still in vogue today.
The first human body was that of earth belonging to Adam and the breath of God was infused into him to make him a living being.
The Logos did not have a human body till he was born of Mary and became the second Adam from heaven.
When he was raised back into heaven he acquired a new imperishable body which was put over his natural body. This was because his natural flesh and blood body could not inherit the Kingdom of God so that death could be swallowed up in victory. He needed to be changed just as we need to be. He has now become a life giving spirit that is given to us that we might share in that eternal life. Like him we will all receive a similar individual imperishable body so we too can inherit the Kingdom.
Nick, I am most concerned with you reconciling the two terms which are bolded below:1. Is not a spirit
See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” (Luke 24:39).
2. Is a spirit
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
Is….. Is not.
Please explain how Jesus himself is not a spirit but is a spirit.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 22 2005,02:08) Hi BE,
If a person is just a body with a spirit then we have nothing to fear from the warning given by Jesus?Mt 10.28″ Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul;but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell”
People can kill what you are but they cannot kill who you are.Jesus is saying you can kill someone's body but not their person. You cannot kill the WHO. You can only kill the WHAT.
Perhaps you need to explain how it is that Jesus laid down his soul unto death if you wish to believe a soul cannot be dead but remains alive?
Quote (Ben Elohim @ Feb. 22 2005,19:11) Since you say spirit and body are mutually exclusive things, not only in this age but in the age to come, please reconcile for me these two passages and then perhaps you will see: 1. See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” (Luke 24:39).
2. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. (1 Corinthians 15:44-45; v. 45 translated as you like it).
To Ben Elohim,Not to argue with you, I ask the following question.
Jesus had the same body after the resurrection and it appears that the law of electromagnetism had no power over his body as he walked through physical objects.
But does Jesus have this same body in Heaven now?
He was resurrected to the earth before being taken up into Heaven. So it may be possible that the earthly body was for the earth. I often read descriptions of Christ in Heaven such as hair as white as snow, face shining like the sun and legs like bronze heated up in a furnace. Is that the same body?
Modem Mouth,
You still defend the Trinity doctrine and say that Jesus is YHWH even after all that has been shown to you. But that is your choice and the choices we make in life determine the type of person we are and our character.
I offer you and any readers that may support your view 2 things for consideration.
1) Where ever the word 'God' is mentioned in scripture, replace it with the word 'Trinity' and then see how confusing your doctrine becomes.
E.g., John 3:16 would read
“For (The Trinity) so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.Your view suggests that the Trinity has a son. So do we now have a Quadrinity? Funny thing is, before the Trinity there was the Binity. Yes as funny as that seems, the Holy Spirit was added in some 40 years after the original Nicene Creed. It was originally about the Father and the Son. The Holy Spirit was added in decades later.
2) Now try and explain the next verse that specifically points out that Jesus is not God.
1 Corinthians 15:24-28
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
27 For he has put everything under his feet. Now when it says that everything has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.I await your answer with great anticipation.
Quote (Ben Elohim @ Feb. 22 2005,07:27) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 22 2005,02:08) Hi BE,
If a person is just a body with a spirit then we have nothing to fear from the warning given by Jesus?Mt 10.28″ Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul;but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell”
People can kill what you are but they cannot kill who you are.Jesus is saying you can kill someone's body but not their person. You cannot kill the WHO. You can only kill the WHAT.
Perhaps you need to explain how it is that Jesus laid down his soul unto death if you wish to believe a soul cannot be dead but remains alive?
Hi,
We know that the same word can be translated asLIFE
or
SOUL
The life is that of natural human life.
The meanings are not interchangeable but are quite separate. Some have tried to muddy the water by swapping those meanings in this forum. Clearly in the verse quoted 'Life' was appropriate.Which version does your quote come from? KJV?
Hi BE,
In the Lk 24.39 verse the disciples were discussing the fact that they thought Jesus was a ghost. Is that you understanding of “SPIRIT”?“The last Adam became a life giving spirit”
does not mean that he was transformed into a life giving spirit after his death.That is reading too much into the verse that is not shown. He became a life giving spirit in his earthly ministry when he was baptised by the Spirit.
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