The Trinity Doctrine

[Cubes]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 18 2005,13:58)

Quote (Cubes @ Feb. 19 2005,07:43) Many Trinitarians say that because attributes of character are shared b/n Father, Son and the Holy Spirit, this must be proof that they are one and the same person…forgetting that, even we are called to reflect those same characters by the indwelling of the holy spirit in us.  Two such character traits are Love and Light.  God is light, Jesus is the Light of the world, and we are said to be light of the world after their kind, or more correctly speaking, after the Father's kind.  Same goes for love.  God is love, Jesus' loved his father and loved us and laid down his life for us.  He calls us to love like he loved, for love is of God the Father.  Undoubtedly, these traits are given us through the holy spirit when we are born again, and the seed of God dwells in us as it says in 1 John 3:9: Good insight Cubes

Hi t8,

I was doing the exercise of reading the openings of the epistles (chapter 1 in part or entirely), read 1 John and Jude—and I guess it got me a little animated. It prompted me to the seriousness of the situation and the danger many are in. I had been happy to live and let live in the past, but I can't any longer—seeing that the trinity is clearly not the faith that was handed to us, and its God, not the God of the bible.

[Cubes]

Mar 6:3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him

Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ and called:

Could Jude be one of Jesus' natural brothers? Comparing the two scriptures, it would appear that Jude is the brother of James, sons of Mary.

If we conclude that it is, then surely, Jude the disciple and brother of Jesus should know something. Does his testimony differ from what the others say?

Jude 3-4: Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. (4) For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the ONLY Lord God, AND our Lord Jesus Christ.

vs 17, 20-21.

vs 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the ONLY wise God our saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

[NickHassan]

Hi cubes,
You give joy to my spirit and I praise God for your listening heart.As you see trintarian understanding puts a veil of mystery and confusion over the Word which lifts away to reveal the true beauty when it is put aside.

Jude is thought to be one of the natural brothers of the Lord [Mk6.3, Mt13.55]]along with James[Jude1.1], both being authors of the books in their names. But neither of them are among the apostles as those of their names are identified with different origins[Lk 6.12f].

The family of Jesus were not particularly helpful initially to him as Jesus commented in Mk 6.4 and is shown in Jn 7.2-5.
James [Gal 1.19]has a strong administrative role in the assembly as shown in Gal 2.9 and Acts 12.17 and Acts 15.13-21. He advises Paul[Acts 21.17-25] He also is appeared to by the risen Christ[1 Cor 15.7]

The KJV scripture in 1Jn 5.7 is a stumbling block to those who rely solely on that version and regard it as infallible. It is established and accepted by all serious scholars that this is a false interpretation based on a comment written in the margin of a manuscript that got somehow into the text.Matt 28.19 likewise originally read “in my name” not as the triune formula.

If Jezebel is the whore then her influence is inside the church and is tolerated by men but not God. There is a fearsome curse associated with that shown in Rev 2.22-23

[Anonymous]

Cubes et al,
when someone can answer these questions logically and cogently for me, then I will agree that the Trinity doctrine is flawed. Until someone does, I will stand with the 99% majority.

Quote

1. If Jesus is not God, then why is He called God by: the Father (Heb 1:8), Paul (Ti 2:13), John (Jn 1:1), Thomas (Jn 20:28)? 2. If Jesus is not God, why is He named great God in Ti 2:13, Mighty God in Is 9:6?, and the Almighty in Rev 1:8. 3. Why is Jesus named YHWH in some Old Testament escatological prophecies, e.g. Zech 14? 4. Why are Old Testament passages, which refer to YHWH, e.g Isaiah 40:3, applied to Jesus by New Testament writers (Mark 1:3)? 5. Why are Old Testament passages, which refer to YHWH, e.g Jer. 31:33, applied to the Holy Spirit by New Testament writers (Heb 10:15-17)? (also, Ps 95:11 and Heb 3:7-11) 6. Why is a plural (not a singular or even a dual) noun used when refering to God in Genesis 1:26; 3:22; 11:7, Isaiah 6:8? 7. Why are the Father and the Holy Spirit mentioned in the same triadic verses? e.g. 2 Cor 13:14, 1 Pet 1:2. (wouldn't this be redundant if the Holy Spirit is simply the Spirit of the Father?) 8. How is it that the Old Testament teaches that God will judge the world, e.g. 1 Chr 16:33, but the New Testament teaches that Jesus alone will be the judge (Matt 25:31, Jn 12:48, Acts 10:42, Acts 17:31, Rom 14:10, 2 Cor 5:10)?

[NickHassan]

HiMM,
Is Jesus his own father?

This is the inevitable conclusion of your premise and it is clearly scripturally untenable. Your have to accept that trinity is a theory or premise and not a fact as it is never spoken of in scripture. The Jews were ardent and careful biblical students and they never found any such truth.

As such you need to find your own conclusions from scripture yourself if you are honest about your beliefs. You have to compare scripture with scripture to find the truth. You cannot examine scripture on the basis of trinitarian belief to prove the premise.

In this case there is no safety in numbers. Mind you there never was. The path is narrow and few will find it.

[Anonymous]

the path to what Nick?….salvation, not doctrinal excellence. Yet another verse used out of context.

[NickHassan]

Hi cubes,
Eternal relating to God is going backwards before time and forwards beyond time. For us it is only forwards as we were born 'in time'.

Ahab married outside of the jewish people. I don't think God approved of such things. That introduced paganism not only into Israel but into the leadership of Israel. Jezebel ,daughter of Ethbaal who was king of the Sidonians, was from a Baal worshipping pagan race and she brought this idolatry to Israel [and the Asherah]and she killed hundreds of prophets and established Baals prophets instead[1Kings 16f]. In the name of Baal [satan]she challenged the God of Israel. They both suffered the personal consequences of these actions.

[NickHassan]

Hi MM,
Do you understand that what you believe about God is important as far as obtaining salvation? False teachings do not lead towards God but into a pit. If you espouse another doctrine apart from the truth that is seen as evil by God. The Word of God is that truth and these words must remain in us to be faithful. Satan is the god of this world and the father of lies. Those who espoused his ways did not recognise or follow Yeshua.

[Anonymous]

So you can answer my questions either i take it….

[Anonymous]

i mean can't

[liljon]

Nick you are ignoring what the bible says about Jesus. He is YHVH in the Flesh

[NickHassan]

Hi MM,
It is up to you to prove this new teaching to us and not up to us to disprove it to you. Trinity is a new teaching, added to the Word of God.
Since we do not add to the Word of God then philosophising about such theories seems useless. Since it is wrong in principle to go beyond the Word of God why would you expect us to be enthusiastic in this task? To rate supposed 'derived truth' alongside truth itself as equals is bizarre.
Sur it has it's avid and sincere proponents but those who are seeking truth see it as a bit of a sideshow.

[NickHassan]

Hi liljon,
Is the flesh Yahweh too? God is spirit.

[liljon]

no.
But scripture is still clear about jesus being god

[NickHassan]

Ok liljon,
What of the flesh of Jesus? You say it is not Yahweh and I agree. Is it all there is of Jesus himself. Is he just a mask for God, a puppet with no personality or will?

[Cubes]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 18 2005,17:03)

Hi cubes, You give joy to my spirit and I praise God for your listening heart.As you see trintarian understanding puts a veil of mystery and confusion over the Word which lifts away to reveal the true beauty when it is put aside. Jude is thought to be one of the natural brothers of the Lord [Mk6.3, Mt13.55]]along with James[Jude1.1], both being authors of the books in their names. But neither of them are among the apostles as those of their names are identified with different origins[Lk 6.12f]. The family of Jesus were not particularly helpful initially to him as Jesus commented in Mk 6.4 and is shown in Jn 7.2-5. James [Gal 1.19]has a strong administrative role in the assembly as shown in Gal 2.9 and Acts 12.17 and Acts 15.13-21. He advises Paul[Acts 21.17-25] He also is appeared to by the risen Christ[1 Cor 15.7] The KJV scripture in 1Jn 5.7 is a stumbling block to those who rely solely on that version and regard it as infallible. It is established and accepted by all serious scholars that this is a false interpretation based on a comment written in the margin of a manuscript that got somehow into the text.Matt 28.19 likewise originally read “in my name” not as the triune formula. If Jezebel is the whore then her influence is inside the church and is tolerated by men but not God. There is a fearsome curse associated with that shown in Rev 2.22-23

Thank you, Nick, and thanks be to God for all that he is doing among us. I feel very hopeful that the tide is changing and many are coming into a right understanding of who Yahshua is and what he came to teach us.

I read the references you gave me for James and he was certainly influential. I have one question though: two James were mentioned among the disciples. Was the Lord's brother one of them and if so, is he the one I read about?

[Anonymous]

[Proclaimer]

Quote (liljon @ Feb. 19 2005,16:17)

Nick you are ignoring what the bible says about Jesus. He is YHVH in the Flesh

To Lijon,

1 John 4:2
This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

By saying that the Father came in the flesh could only lead one to deny that Jesus came in the flesh.

If God came in the flesh and Jesus is God in the flesh, then 1 John 4:2 would mean that we have to believe that the God who came in the Flesh (Jesus as some say) then came in the flesh. So God now has 2 layers of flesh according to that interpretation.

True faith requires that one believes that Jesus came in the flesh. Oneness and the Trinity doctrines teach another Jesus and makes a mockery of 1 John 4:2 by rendering it not only illogical, but makes that scripture out as a lie.

Some say that Jesus is the Father in flesh and teach that when Jesus said “not my will but your will”, that that was the flesh talking to the Eternal Spirit (the Father). So by their words, they demonstrate that they and the spirit in them is not of God.

Colossians 2:9-10
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
10 and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

Many use this verse to say that Jesus is God but the same proof that they come up with when applied to verse 10 would then suggest that we are Christ.

Just as we are not Christ, Christ is not God. The divine order is God -> Christ -> Man.

That is why Yeshua is called the son OF God. That title says it all, and that is what we believe if the Spirit of God lives in us.

[NickHassan]

Hi cubes,
I used to think so but in Luke 6 it says that there are two called James

James and John, brothers and sons of Zebedee[Mt 4.21]
and
James, the son of Alphaeus[also Lk 6.15, Mk 3.18, Acts 1.13]. Levi also has the same name for his father[Mk 2.14]but they are not identified as brothers. Is Alphaeus a greek name as it derives from Alpha?

So James, the brother of Jesus, was not an apostle. Apostle means one who is sent so it is more likely he was an appointed bishop or pastor and administrator.
It is interesting that some claim Peter was a bishop of Rome but apostles had a different role and appointed bishops.

[Anonymous]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 18 2005,21:18)

Hi MM, It is up to you to prove this new teaching to us and not up to us to disprove it to you. Trinity is a new teaching, added to the Word of God. Since we do not add to the Word of God then philosophising about such theories seems useless. Since it is wrong in principle to go beyond the Word of God why would you expect us to be enthusiastic in this task? To rate supposed 'derived truth' alongside truth itself as equals is bizarre. Sur it has it's avid and sincere proponents but those who are seeking truth see it as a bit of a sideshow.

Nick,
Im not asking you to disprove the trinity. I'm asking you to explain these anomolies, if your theology is to be creditable to me.

Here are further amplifications of some of the questions I posed:

Jesus’ Divinity

Jehovah of glory
Ps 24:7
7 Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. (KJV)

Ps 24:10 with 1 Cor 2:8
Ps 24:10
10 Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah. (KJV)

1 Cor 2:8
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. (KJV)

James 2:1
1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. (KJV)

Jehovah our righteousness
Jer 23:5-6 with 1 Cor 1:30

Jer 23:5-6
5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. (KJV)

1 Cor 1:30
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: (KJV)

Jehovah above all
Ps 97:9 with John 3:31

Ps 97:9
9 For thou, LORD, art high above all the earth: thou art exalted far above all gods. (KJV)

John 3:31
31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. (KJV)
Jehovah the first and the last

Isa 44:6 with Rev 1:17
Isa 44:6
6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. (KJV)

Rev 1:17
17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: (KJV)

Isa 48:12-16 with Rev 22:13
Isa 48:12-16
12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
14 All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The LORD hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.
16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. (KJV)

Rev 22:13
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. (KJV)

Jehovah of hosts
Isa 6:1-3 with John 12:41

Isa 6:1-3
1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. (KJV)

John 12:41
41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. (KJV)

Isa 8:13-14 with 1 Pet 2:8
Isa 8:13-14
13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. (KJV)

1 Pet 2:8
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. (KJV)
Jehovah

Ps 110:1 with Matt 22:42-45
Ps 110:1
1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. (KJV)

Matt 22:42-45
42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? (KJV)
Jehovah the shepherd

Isa 40:10-11
10 Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.
11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young. (KJV)
Heb 13:20
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, (KJV)

Jehovah, for whose glory all things were created
Prov 16:4 with Col 1:16

Prov 16:4
4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. (KJV)

Col 1:16
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (KJV)
Jehovah the messenger of the covenant

Mal 3:1 with Luke 2:27
Mal 3:1
1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. (KJV)

Luke 2:27
27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, (KJV)
Invoked as Jehovah

Joel 2:32 with 1 Cor 1:2
Joel 2:32
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. (KJV)

1 Cor 1:2
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: (KJV)

As the eternal God and Creator
Ps 102:24-27 with Heb 1:8

Ps 102:24-27
24 I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.
25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end. (KJV)

Heb 1:8
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. (KJV)

Heb 1:10-12
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. (KJV)

The Great God and Saviour
Hosea 1:7 with Titus 2:13

Hosea 1:7
7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen. (KJV)

Titus 2:13
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (KJV)
God over all

Rom 9:5
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (KJV)

God the Judge
Eccl 12:14 with 1 Cor 4:5

Eccl 12:14
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. (KJV)

1 Cor 4:5
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. (KJV)

2 Cor 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. (KJV)

2 Tim 4:1
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; (KJV)

Emmanuel
Isa 7:14 with Matt 1:23

Isa 7:14
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (KJV)

Matt 1:23
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. (KJV)

King of kings and LORD of lords
Rev 17:14
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. (KJV)

The Holy One
1 Sam 2:2 with Acts 3:14

1 Sam 2:2
2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God. (KJV)

Acts 3:14
14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; (KJV)
The Lord from heaven

1 Cor 15:47
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. (KJV)

Lord of the sabbath
Gen 2:3 with Matt 12:8

Gen 2:3
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. (KJV)

Matt 12:8
8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day. (KJV)
Lord of all

I don't think you can explain away all this with the 'by proxy' and 'in the name of' arguments. If im to take God at his word then I must believe Jesus is YHWH

[Author]

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