The Trinity Doctrine

[Anonymous]

t8,
If it was true that there were many genuine gods, that would contradict v 6 wouldn't it?

6yet for us there is but one God…”

I guess you need to ask yourself if you are one of the us that Paul speaks of.

[Proclaimer]

To MM,

God begats gods, beings that have his nature. How can God begat not after his kind? If it is not his kind then it is created and begotten after it's own kind.

God/s is a term that is used in reference to angels, Satan, men and Yeshua as well as the Father. Are you suggesting all or some of these do not exist because there is one God?

One God simply means that there is one original. All good comes from him. He is the Father and we are to call him Father only. E.g. I may be a father, but there is one Father of all. So if I teach that there is one Father as there is one Father of all, then does that rule me out as being the father of my child. Am I teaching falsely if I say that someone is a father if they have a child?

So let's look at the phrase Father. We know that there are many so-called fathers as indeed there are many fathers. But for us there is one Father who is God. This is how we are to understand one God.

Do you see this. It is scriptural. I am not bringing a new doctrine here. I am only repeating scripture.

Same with Lord. There are many lords. Landlords, lords in parliaments etc. But for us there is but one Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. So does that mean that there are no other lords. No it doesn't mean that at all. Does this thinking make all lords dissapear? Does this thinking contradict scripture? No, it is those who say that there is one God (made up of 3) and no other gods exist that are wrong. Just as wrong if you said that there are no lords in existence except for Jesus.

Scripture makes reference to many gods and to many lords. False ones and genuine ones. If you look up the meaning of the word God/god you will see that it is not a name, rather it is a term that can be applied to many. E.g. God of this age. But it is not a term that is exclusive the God of heaven and earth. We need to read the adjective to understand what kind of god is being spoken of. A false one? The god of this age? The God of heaven and earth. The mighty god. Gods that are the offspring of God. If you do not believe me I challenge you to read the following page before answering me. It may save a lot of unnecessary dialogue.

https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity-4.htm

Indeed there are many gods and many lords.

[NickHassan]

Hi MM,
You misunderstand me. The teaching that baptism without belief saves belongs to the false traditional churches who baptise infants. That is belief in magic and is not of faith. I do not ascribe to any such view.
Instead I hold that the usual order is that of belief, repentance, baptism and receiving the Spirit as of Acts 2.37f, Heb 6.1f, Mk 16.16f etc
But the christians were called 'believers' Acts 5.14,Acts 10.45, Acts 19.2, 1Thess 1.7, 1Thess 2.10, 1Tim 6.2, 1Peter 1.21.
Belief alone was not enough though as James 2.19 explains and is shown with the salvation of the jailer and his family in Acts 16.30f as well as Mk 16.16.
Now the Spirit was usually imparted with the laying on of hands Acts 8 15f,Heb 6.1f.Acts 9 17.etc.
But at Pentecost and the house of Cornelius in Acts 10 God gave the Spirit directly. In the case of Acts 10 it was to encourage Peter that these gentiles were chosen of God and Peter immediately insisited they be baptised as well.Acts10.47-48.
The baptism into Jesus is compared with the saving Ark of Noah in 1Peter 3 20. The apostles preached Christ crucified and resurrected and belief in him was essential to salvation. He saves and in him we gain our new relationship with the Father, his father and his God. Belief in God is not enough but we must believe also in Jesus and be reborn into him.

[NickHassan]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 14 2005,06:23)

Quote (Guest @ Feb. 14 2005,23:57) what is a believer then Nick?, some one who believes in 2 Gods (or one God and one lesser god, i.e. polytheism), like you do. If that is the case, then I guess I am a non-believer. Argue with scripture not Nick. 1 Corinthians 8:5-6   5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), 6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. Scripture is what you do not agree with MM.

Hi MM,
Clearly the Spirit distinguishes between gods which exist and God who is to be worshipped by US. Gods are simply beings that are greater than natural man.

One part of the scripture is a statement of fact and the other is a special definition concerning our personal and intimate relationship with the one God.

There is only one God and we in his Son worship Him alone in Spirit and in truth. We do not worship three equal gods in one as that is what trinity believers try to do.

We do not worship our Father here or there, in this place only or on that day only, because we are a temple wherever we are and He is always listening to US.

[Cubes]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 14 2005,00:13)

Hi cubes, Think hard about your situation. If you are properly established in Jesus [Jn 3.3]then you need to fellowship with those who fellowship with Jesus and his Father in the Spirit of God. To break bread with non believers is to claim unity with them. If they are not in unity with Jesus then what are you taking part in? What are you witnessing to God? Whatever is not of faith is of sin. “The things the gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God and I do not want you to become sharers in demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons;you cannot partake of the table of the lord and the table of demons. Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He are we?” 1Cor 10 20 That is why I broke fellowship with catholicism 20 yrs ago and await his friends to be one with.

Hi Nick,
My husband is Trinitarian and basically, if I don't worship with trinitarians it would mean I'd have to stop going to church altogether, something that would negatively impact my family as a whole. That is my predicament.

T8's points reflect some of my experience, in that I know many people who sincerely love the Lord but may be largely ignorant of the truth and have not felt a need to question beyond what they read and what they hear in the pulpit. Or like my husband, they say what does it matter, and why would you want to be out there alone? And Hebrews 10:25 keeps coming up and I know it's true.

Lastly, it is also not a good witness to the world and to the merely religious, if we are not in church because it is easy for them to say we are in error and have no submission to authority. Which ruins our witness for their sake. Do you see my point?

[NickHassan]

Sure cubes,
Once I was sure that my fellowship was in error I felt I had two choices.
Stay and point out error. But since that church says it's teaching is infallible it cannot be corrected as it is sure it is always right. It also threatened my relationship with Jesus which is most precious.

I felt it more of a witness to come out and let those who want to know why ask me and I was always happy to tell them.

Since then I have been in other groups but found they also harboured error and could not continue.

Then I was a member of a couple of home groups and enjoyed it till I was asked to leave by the leader because they did not accept that the Holy Spirit was real and present. They also could not accept any bible but KJV. Since then God has used me in many diverse ways , mainly one to one. Sharing, teaching, encouraging and trying to light a fire of love for God and his wonderful Word on earth.

The truest word though for all is to seek first the kingdom of God and everything else will be added to you. Until your salvation is certain all else is vain philosophy.

[Cubes]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 14 2005,06:45)

Quote (Cubes @ Feb. 14 2005,18:54) Thank you for sharing your experience.  I think many of us are in Trinitarian settings.  I worship with Trinitarians but do not share my view except with those I am in close relationship with, because my purpose is not to bring division. Hi Cubes, Personally I think there are 2 kinds of Trinitarians. 1) Genuinly deceived about this doctrine, but they do not teach it. They speak the truth and have the Spirit of God. They believe that Jesus is the Christ and the son of God. i.e. True believers that need to come out of her. 2) Those who are religious and lack God's Spirit. They promote this doctrine even against the truth of scripture when it is presented to them. I would expect that the first type would repent when the truth was presented to them. Although they may initially be in some state of shock which is normal. This may cause a retaliation, but the truth would win them over eventually. I know that I was brought up a Trinitarian (from the day I had faith in God that is) and I know that God loved me and I had a true faith in him. God did many miracles and was with me then as I beleive that he is with me now. If I was to condemn all those who believe in the Trinity then I would be condeming myself in the past which I cannot do in good conscience when I see all the works that God did in my life. Even though I do not believe that doctrine anymore (which was due to being naive and ignorant), I know that God was with me then and he is with me now. After all it was God who moved me on from my religious ways. If I did not belong to him, he wouldn't have done that. I have however always believed that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God from the beginning of my faith in God. I also never felt the urge to preach the Trinity doctrine back then now that I think about it. It was jsut something that I thought I had to beleive in, but I wasn't that passionate about it. I have learned many things on the way and I am sure that I have many things to learn. I would suggest that we all make discerments about who has the Spirit of God and those who are just religious. God's children are trapped even in Babylon, so we cannot write them off of course. But we need discernment. I pray that God would give you and me discerment to know the difference.

I agree.

I was never in church as a child so I didn't know about the Trinity.  I mostly learned about Jesus through hymns at home and school.  When I could read well, some one gave me a gospel booklet.  I read it and clearly understood that Jesus was the son of God, the Way, the Truth and the Life.

The popular hymn, Holy, Holy, Holy Lord God Almighty is probably how I first heard of the Trinity and it was indeed a mystery…Jesus is the Son of God is what I believed from the beginning and God preserved that faith so that it was unpolluted.  I still sang the song with gusto but I understood the order of authority.

Many years later I arrived in the united states from Ghana, West Africa, and it was then, through TV, I started hearing sermons and eventually went to church.  I was shocked and for a time confused about the trinity.  I then met some JWs who studied with me for a time–and God used that for good.  They said that John 1:1 should have “a” .  This further confused me.

I would later stop studying with the JWs before being baptized.  I decided to take a course in greek to resolve this important matter.  I learned my greek alphabet (can't remember a thing now), and as soon as I could, proceeded straight to investigate John 1:1 only to find out there was no way of knowing for certain whether or not there should be an “a.”  

I decided then to go with the bulk of the evidence and the faith which was first communicated in my heart, which is that Jesus is the Son of God, and a separate being who was begotten from the Father of all.

I am a bit more ignorant of the holy spirit, and I feel neither confident to call him a person nor a “force.”  My questions resulted in some answers which led to a poem I wrote many years ago.  I know he proceeds from the father and indwells Christ and all who are Christ's.  I think of him as our spiritual DNA and that by him, we are one with Christ and the Father.  I know he seals us, teaches, comforts…and by him we cry “Abba, Father.”  Is he a person?  I cannot say.  Shall we see him in heaven on his own Throne?  I doubt it.  I believe he would be unseen and in us even then that God may be all in all.  

Many love the Lord in all the denominations, including JW, LDS etc.  May he lead us all to the true knowledge of him as you say, t8.

The trouble that I see is that, a certain deadlock thing happens. People refuse to consider the word of God outside of the what the denominations or entities deem acceptable. Allegiance seems to first be for the church and its creed. Not to Jesus and what he has to say.

[NickHassan]

Hi cubes,
Those that would accuse someone of error for following Jesus rather than false teachers or leaders or false fellowship deserve contempt. The road following him is narrow and few choose it-that means that they are not easy to find and fellowship with too.
Mt 7 13f
” Enter through the narrow gate;for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow and there are few that find it”
Jn 10.9
” I am the door;if anyone enters through me he will be saved ,and will go in and out and find pasture..”

The crowds are travelling another way. They hold tightly to each other because they are insecure and afraid. They are not secure in their hope and do not have peace. They have not yet passed from death to life.

Jesus said
” My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me”
Jn 10 .27
“And a stranger they will not follow but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers”.Jn 10 .5

[Cubes]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 14 2005,22:10)

Sure cubes, Once I was sure that my fellowship was in error I felt I had two choices. Stay and point out error. But since that church says it's teaching is infallible it cannot be corrected as it is sure it is always right. It also threatened my relationship with Jesus which is most precious. I felt it more of a witness to come out and let those who want to know why ask me and I was always happy to tell them. Since then I have been in other groups but found they also harboured error and could not continue. Then I was a member of a couple of home groups and enjoyed it till I was asked to leave by the leader because they did not accept that the Holy Spirit was real and present. They also could not accept any bible but KJV. Since then God has used me in many diverse ways , mainly one to one. Sharing, teaching, encouraging and trying to light a fire of love for God and his wonderful Word on earth. The truest word though for all is to seek first the kingdom of God and everything else will be added to you. Until your salvation is certain all else is vain philosophy.

True. And I have no doubt that God uses you. Do you get to follow up with the people that receive the message? If so, then there is a basis for establishing some small group, following the biblical pattern and also for the sake of those who are being saved.

I personally love the language of the KJV. Scriptures that I have memorized are in the KJV. I don't hold it above other translations and it is not uncommon for me to go over certain passages with other translations. I own the KJV, NKJV, NIV, and MESSAGE.

I read the KJV & NKJV routinely, either or. NIV mostly at church [that's their preferred text] and if I want to look up something. I don't like the typically small print so I don't reach for it as often.

I read the Message when I want to laugh out loud. It is hilarious. Try reading one of the psalms or epistles. If you don't have access to a copy, I'll post a passage from it.

I've got to run now, but I'll be back with responses to you and t8.

[liljon]

Please visit my new website (not finished)
http://liljon30310.tripod.com/

[Cubes]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 14 2005,06:19)

Quote (Cubes @ Feb. 14 2005,18:54) t8: LOL    NZ wouldn't be a typo by any chance, would it–you didn't mean NJ, NY, AZ or NM, did you? You are on the other side of the world!  No.  I live in the US. Thank you for sharing your experience.  I think many of us are in Trinitarian settings.  I worship with Trinitarians but do not share my view except with those I am in close relationship with, because my purpose is not to bring division.   Last November, I joined a forum which is primarily trinitarian and it was then I started publicly debating with others.  It was also at this forum that I was told I couldn't answer “christian” to faith/belief.  All those who do not espouse to the Trinity, are not allowed to call themselves christians.  We are considered “other-church” and are restricted to post only in the Unorthodox Forum where everyone is thrown together:  eg. Mormons, LDS, JW, and other faiths I had never heard of.  I don't fit into any of those categories either because of doctrinal differences. Hi Cubes, Yes I am in New Zealand the most isolated country on earth. But you are still welcome to fellowship here.   Nick is from here too, but he is on a different island to me. It would be good to catch up with him too. Interesting thing about NZ is that it is the furthest country from Jerusalem and Jesus said to his disciples the following: Acts 1:8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” I have heard many prophecies regarding NZ being the end of the earth and how God will cause revival here that will reverberate back to Jerusalem. It makes sense to me that God could do such a thing, but we will see. I hope however to see a revival based on truth. A revival that will never die. BTW I think that is pretty bad of that Forum to make people wear a label. It is hard to see the heart of a person when we have to wear labels and we get judged unfairly. It's like they are saying all the Trinitarians here and all the weirdos over there. I think many will be surprised to learn that Trinitarians are also a cult. Perhaps the mother of cults. I guess this all happens when men cannot see in the spirit. They decern with their caranal natures. A christian is a person who follows Christ. Yeshua/Jesus is the Christ and the son of God and I am not ashamed of that. Also I may be in the USA about May/June. If I do get over there we could catch up.

If ever I am in town, I'll be sure to let you and Nick know! Those are some interesting stats about NZ and it is wonderful. The gospel of Jesus has indeed spread to the ends of the world and to every isle, it would seem. That means that we are really nearing the end, wouldn't you say?
The prophecy you speak of makes sense to me too. Doesn't say somewhere in the bible that the Lord will use gentiles to provoke the jews to jealousy all in his purpose to lead them to Yeshua? So it is perhaps it is another facet of the same truth, that he should use those who are furthest to witness unto them– the foolish things to confound the wise so to speak.

Like you, I pray that we shall all be ready and that many more would be saved.

Yes, it is quite interesting there. Here is a signature of one of the members. It makes me lol:

[Don't try to get me thrown off this site for being “UnChristian.” I haven't said anything that contradicts the Nicene creed (all that is necessary to call oneself a Christian on this site), even if it goes agaisnt your denominational and/or personal beliefs.

Don't accuse me of using a wide brush. I use a stick of dynamite.]

http://www.christianforums.com/

My username is the same over there. I hope you give the non-trinitarians some help in the famous Incrongruities of the Trinities thread at that Unorthodox Forum. But be ready for a fight! I have been staying away from it. It can give you a lasting headache, especially when the truth is so obvious.

Yes, let me know when you are coming. I live in NY State, and I have mentioned it to my husband.

[NickHassan]

Hi cubes,
All your questions about the Spirit will be answered when you know that 'wind' in your life.
Paul asked believers in Acts 19 if they had received the Spirit. That was a silly question unless the Spirit can be experienced. It is false to think he is guiding your denomination. The work he does is with individuals and bringing them together to work as Christ in the world and not the other way around.
It says twice in the Word [Eph 1.13-14, 2 Cor 1.22] that the Spirit is given as a downpayment on our salvation. What use is such a deposit if we cannot experience it?[also read 1 Jn 4.13, 1Jn 2.27,1Jn 5.20, 1 Cor 2.12-these words were written to those who knew the work of the Spirit in their lives]
All in Jesus, who have gone through the gate, are able to ask the Father for this blessing and know what I am saying is true.

[Anonymous]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 14 2005,21:25)

We do not worship three equal gods in one as that is what trinity believers try to do.

Nick,
If you want to criticise the trinitarian belief you might want to have a basic understanding of it first. Otherwise you speak in ignorance.

Here is a section of a Ambasador of Christ from pg 3 of this thread. I hope it corrects your misconception, so you cease continuously building straw men to knock down:

Quote

I dont not beleive in three Gods. Let me try to give a good working deff. of the Trinity, and hopefully clear up any confusion you might have as to what I feel the scripture teaches. The ONE being of God is shared by three co-equal and co-eternal persons, The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Please note the difference in the words “BEING” and “PERSON” They are seperate persons, but they share the same being that is God. I hope this helps you to understand what the Trinity really is.

As you can see Nick, unlike your belief, trintarians are monothiestic.

[Anonymous]

Quote (Cubes @ Feb. 14 2005,22:22)

I am a bit more ignorant of the holy spirit, and I feel neither confident to call him a person nor a “force.”  My questions resulted in some answers which led to a poem I wrote many years ago.  I know he proceeds from the father and indwells Christ and all who are Christ's.  I think of him as our spiritual DNA and that by him, we are one with Christ and the Father.  I know he seals us, teaches, comforts…and by him we cry “Abba, Father.”  Is he a person?  I cannot say.  Shall we see him in heaven on his own Throne?  I doubt it.  I believe he would be unseen and in us even then that God may be all in all.

Hi Cubes,
You are not alone in this forum in not having a good understanding of the Holy Spirit or any confidence to share sound exegesis (and I include myself). From my perspective, the topic hasn't really been confronted at all here.

What do you think of this verse:

Galatians 4:6
Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son
into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba,[a] Father.”

By the way I like your posts, you clearly have a warm personality, and it shows. God bless.

[NickHassan]

Hi MM,
Thank you for clearing that up and sharing your understanding. We have had a variety of explanations of the trinity. One said it was like having three partners in a business firm so when you went in prayer you did not know which member of the firm you might deal with!
Historically the concept evolved over more than 200 years. One of the initial ideas was that the members of the trinity had an order of authority on Greco -Roman lines with no equality or unity and this was called 'subordinationism'

The other idea emphasised the unity at the expense of their distinctness and this was called 'modalism'
Eventually in the 4th century the doctrine of one essence in three persons was refined to try to satisfy the Judaic Shema of the One God.

It does cause some practical problems however which I would be interested in your response to.

Are the '3 persons' equal in authority and glory?
If they are totally united in one does the Son of God have a separate divine nature from the beginning or not?
Should you pray to the trinity?
Should you worship the trinity?
.

[NickHassan]

Hi MM,
If you accept the definition of Ambassador of Christ you say the three persons are
Co equal
and
Coeternal

So does that mean the Son of God was not begotten of the Father because they are the same God?
Does it mean that he could not have been filled with God's Spirit because he already was that God and that Spirit?
Are there the three persons shown in scripture in heaven?
Can Jesus worship or serve a coequal Father? Equals do not worship and serve one another.
Do we worship the three individual persons as God?
Do we worship The Holy Spirit and where does scripture say we should or does not the Spirit help us worship the Father?
Are we in The Body of Christ and seated with him at the Father's right hand and still meant to be worshipping him?
When the OT talks about God is it talking about all of these persons or only one?

[Proclaimer]

The thing is that the Trinitarian doctrine negates that God is a person. It teaches that God is 3 persons. So God is not a he. He is Hes according to their view. That view also considers any singular term in a family (unity) sense.

Yes it is true that Christ is in unity with God and that he is one with him. It is also true that we too can be one with God and in unity with both the Father and the Son, yet we are not God. Even with the clear biblical understanding that God is an identity called YWHW, (I use the word identity, as 'person' broken down means 1 son), scripture also tells us that YWHW has a son who is called Yeshua. Who dares to disagree with God or his scripture?

I can only conclude that when God is mentioned as a he, Trinitarians must believe that it is one of the 3 persons being mentioned. But as it stands, Trinitarians cannot say that God is a person can they? They can say (using their own logic) that one of the persons is God, but they cannot say that God is a he. That God is the supreme mind. That he is the I AM. They really teach that God is the I AMs. For surely they believe in 3 persons as 1 God. But YHWH is one God, there is no one else who is the Most High God. Yes Christ is at God's right hand side, but there is no other Almighty God.

God is one. This is the first commandment and even Jesus said the most important. When he said this, he never even so much as hinted that he was that God. For he said that God is one and he taught that he came from him.

It's funny how God has made foolish the wise of this world. The theologians with all their Greek and Babylonian philosophy have ended up with a doctrine full of holes and one that scripture clearly condemns. They then hide behind the “God is too big for us to understand” excuse and “therefore we cannot comprehend the Trinity”. Even new believers think it is strange. I know I did when I first heard it. It was the same thing when I was first taught Evolution. It was strange at first, then you sort of get use to it and because everyone round you seems to believe it, you don't question it after a while.

LOL. This surely is a crazy world. You know anyone can  teach any manner of deception using the excuse that you cannot fully understand it, so don't question it. For example, some Australian aborigines believe that the the creator of the world is the crocodile. Now if an elder said to a young innocent and enquiring mind that God is so incomprehensible that we cannot understand why he has chosen the form of a crocodile, then what is really being said is the following:

We who are in authority say this is the truth. Yes we cannot understand it and it is not even logical to us, but God is beyond our understanding. So best to just accept it, or go against everything in our culture.

Sounds like the Trinity debacle to me. It sounds like the King who rode naked down the street and every one saw that he was naked, but dared not say anything as they didn't want to look foolish.

I can partly understand why Jesus said that a child is the greatest in the Kingdom. Children just say it as it is. They speak the truth because of their innocense. They haven't yet been educated out of their innocense and search for truth.

God is not 3 people. He is one. He is the I AM and he is called YWHW. Yeshua is YWHW's son, not 1 part of YHWH or 1 member of YWHW. This truth is foundational and fundimental. YWHW is not a family, organisation or a triune God. No he is one God. YWHW is the Father. The Father is the one God.

The King has no clothes on people. The Pharisees do not lead you to God. The proud will stumble and the wise of this world are fools in the eyes of God. If you want the truth, then seek it with all your heart. That is the only way you will get truth. There is no easy road here. Listening to the religious on Sunday isn't going to help you.

There is nothing new under the sun. In the end it is up to you to face God and be judged. On that day all those who you have followed will not be at your side to support you. You will have to give an account of your life and your expressions yourself. Then it will be obvious how honest you have been in this life.

Is it not better to go through these things now though? Let everyday be an opportunity to give an account to God for your life. Be honest in all things and love all that is of God. Even let this love flow to your enemies. Do it now while you still have time to change.

It starts with humbling yourself before God and realising that you need him for everything in your life. Turn from your sins (your ways and beliefs) and be baptized into Christ that his death will give you his life. Then let God's Spirit lead you into ALL truth.

It's not about improving the old man as world religions try in vain to do. It's about being a new creature in Christ. It's about being born from above.

[Cubes]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 15 2005,21:24)

Hi cubes, All your questions about the Spirit will be answered when you know that 'wind' in your life. Paul asked believers in Acts 19 if they had received the Spirit. That was a silly question unless the Spirit can be experienced. It is false to think he is guiding your denomination. The work he does is with individuals and bringing them together to work as Christ in the world and not the other way around. It says twice in the Word [Eph 1.13-14, 2 Cor 1.22] that the Spirit is given as a downpayment on our salvation. What use is such a deposit if we cannot experience it?[also read 1 Jn 4.13, 1Jn 2.27,1Jn 5.20, 1 Cor 2.12-these words were written to those who knew the work of the Spirit in their lives] All in Jesus, who have gone through the gate, are able to ask the Father for this blessing and know what I am saying is true.

Hi Nick,

I believe myself to be born again and that I know the Master's voice, as you cited from scripture. My fruit is present and maturing–not always as ripe as it ought to be, but it is there and abounding.

Now with regards to the gifts of the Spirit: I don't speak in tongues and have no gifts of prophecy and many of the others. But I have prayed for the sick and seen them recover (bread for the children). God has also answered my prayers done many marvelous things for me.

I have had the strange experience of having something I say be reiterated in a different setting by a different person (may be you know what I am talking about). I think it is God's doing, but to what end or purpose, I cannot say at the moment. This happens frequently with scripture passages or discussions on the bible where a scripture my husband and I discuss is quoted or a topic cited by the pastor at church during the course of a sermon on our very next attendance, etc. There have been some interesting non-biblical ones that got our attention and my husband has told me to start writing them down.

Here are two examples: one day our discussion led to the topic of “Sultans” in West African history. We weren't thinking about sultans, the discussion just led there somehow. It was poignant because that day, we had to look up the word in a dictionary. It was Saturday night.

On Sunday morning during the sermon, our pastor started talking about Sultans from Turkey. To say we were shocked would be an underestimation. You have to understand that it is not part of our vocabulary or of anyone that we know. Then there was the time last August when I asked my husband why the Star of David is in the Israeli flag and has such significance in modern Jewish culture, including the days of the holocust. I hadn't seen it in scripture, so I wondered. This was at night, driving home from small group. The next evening, we had to attend a closed neighborhood meeting that was opened to only residents. Our first and last attendance. We were to bring two IDs as proof of residency in the neighborhood. We didn't know what the meeting was about but it was said to be urgent so we went. It turned out to be about a growing Jewish population in a neighboring community, and what to do about them. I couldn't believe it. As the meeting was closed, not everyone was allowed in. Well, there was a woman there wearing a yellow Jewish star who eventually had to be escorted out. Around that time, my husband and I had just finished reading Nehemia and Daniel, so it was clear that we could not be part of such a decision against Jews. The arguments were compelling but the choice was black and white for us. And just as amazing was the fact that we saw a real life jewish person in 2004 wearing a yellow star…a first for us. Was it coincidence?

It's happened often enough that I don't think it is coincidence, but I have not heard of any “thus saith the Lord…” I pray the Lord would make it clear.

[NickHassan]

Thank you and bless you cubes for your beautiful sharing.Yes I believe you have experienced the wind of the Spirit as evidence of the work of God among men. If you have been given these wonderful evidences then do make sure you are reborn into Yeshua. To say you believe you are is not proof before the Master that this is the case. Just because Cornelius and the listeners to Peter in Acts 10 manifested the Spirit did not mean that baptism was not necesary as can be seen by Peter's reaction. All must be born again of water and the Spirit.

Though scripture says in Mk 16 that signs such as healing will follow believers you still have to bear in mind those who worked miracles in the name of Jesus in Mt 7. 21f who the Lord said to ” I never knew you”

Even Yeshua has eternal 'witnesses' before God.

1 Jn 5.6″ This is the one who came by water and blood,Jesus Christ;not with the water only but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit that testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify, the Spirit, the water and the blood”

[Proclaimer]

Yes Cubes,

This is how God leads us and prepares us. It's a sign that God is leading us.

I found a similar thing when I started a job teaching an IT course. I didn't know everything, but it seemed that whatever new thing I had just learned would be tested the very next day by a student asking about that very thing.

I was worried when I started this job that I wouldn't have enough knowledge to fill up a 6 month full-time course. But it worked out perfectly and the students had nothing but praise for my work. My employer even gave me a raise in recognition for my effort.

But the truth was, I went into a very hard job with little resources from the college. It was a private college for adults but the course I taught had no real curriculum or materials. When I realised the truth of the situation I said to God that I was going to resign immediately, (before teaching my first class), and that God would have to put something in the way of me walking to the bosses office and resigning, if he wanted me to stay.

Yes God put someone in my way. I was stopped by a teacher and questioned in a weird way as to how I was feeling etc. I eventually told the teacher what I was about to. She just encouraged me and said that I must be crazy because I was  perfect for the job. So I stayed and prepared the course for the next week before entering the classroom.

I started off teaching what I knew and stretched myself to learn new things to teach after I ran out of my current knowledge. The amazing thing was I was so amazed at the times I would learn something new and then the next day a student would ask me about it. I actually never remember not having an answer once.

I have seen this in other times too, but not so as abvious as when I had that teaching job.

Praise God because the truth be known I was really scared of talking in front of groups of people. It had always been a really bad fear that I had since childhood. But I had to face this fear with faith in God alone. All I could do was pray.

It turned out to be the most rewarding job I had ever done and one that was so much fun that I felt like I wasn't working at all some days. But fear nearly ended it before it began. This job also changed me as a person and gave me confidence to speak in front of crowds of people.

I can only thank God for the strength he gave me at that time and the amazing way he lead me and changed me.

[Author]

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