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Hi MM
Have you checked the Greek yourself or are you only reliant on drinking the water from the wells of others?2316[NASB]
THEOS; a prim.word ;a god,God;-
divinely [1]
God [1266]
god[6]
God's [28]
God-fearing[ 1]
godly[2]
godly*[1]
gods[8]Look at the context and you be the judge.
Nick,
I think I can trust the opinions of the experts in the language. Do you seriously expect me to believe that all ten versions have an error?? and you, with absolutely no background in greek construction, are in the right? Get real Nick. I would be careful how I treated the holy Word of God, if I were you.Fair enough MM,
How about you put John 1.1 in plain mans' language for us then?
I love the Word of God and believe it was not written for professors but children. I believe it is not meant to be put on a pedestal and worshipped but studied honestly and deeply to make it reveal all it's secrets.
It is not confusing or wrapped in unintelligible mystery. Neither is it stupid and self contradictory. It makes part of a magnificent whole including old and New showing the loving nature of God. It is the Spirit speaking truth.Coming back to John 1.1
Do you think both times the word “God” is used does it refer to the Father or does one refer to the Son? Do you agree with the trinitarians and modalists that they are the same? If you do why does it say that God was with God?You see how confusion and mystery rules if you do, and that is not the style of the God I know even if I am not an expert in languages.
I do have the help of the Spirit.
Does it mean the Logos was with the Father
Nick,
The fact that you continue to use the word “monogenes” incorrectly suggests that you are unwilling to accept any truths that conflicts with your doctrine. Read the excerpt that I posted from James White, (a Trinitarian scholar). “Monogenes” does not mean “only begotten”. “Only begotten” is an obvious mistranslation of a word that clearly is simply an augmented form of the word “only”, (i.e. “unique”). But you refuse to accept this because it upsets your theology.
I have already shown you that the term “son of God” always refers to a part of God's creation in the OT, (e.g. men or angels), so your speculation that it means something different in the NT has no scriptural basis.
Quote Hi WIT,
That Oneness site you offer seems to suggest that John 1.1 is untrue. However I believe God is true though every man be proved a liar, and that God's Word is truth.…
How can I take you seriously when you support such nonsense? But perhaps you don't but you read widely and just want to share an insight thus found.
When I originally posted the link to that site, I stated quite clearly that I do not agree with the author's Oneness doctrine but that his documentation of the historical development of the Trinity is valuable. Obviuosly, I don't “support such nonsense” as Oneness theology, (or “Two God” theology for that matter). However, history is history, and when he is talking about the historical beliefs of individual “church fathers”, you can't just ignore it because of the source. Verify it, but don't ignore it.
Quote It is you who say Yeshua is a deity when you argue that two deities are worshipped. What is your scriptural basis for that assertion or are you going beyond Scripture? Thomas, John and Paul all called Yeshua their God. Surely you must protest to be consistent? I have never said that Yeshua is a deity – quite the opposite. It is you who have stated all along that Yahweh and Yeshua are two uncreated beings in the universe, thus making both of them deities who exist outside of creation – deities from whom creation came. Are you now saying that Yeshua is not a deity? That would be encouraging news indeed!
By the way, I do not believe that any of the apostles believed that Yeshua was their God. I have already discussed all the pertinent verses, (e.g. John 1:1, John 20:28, Titus 2:13, etc.), but my explanations have fallen on deaf ears.
You may go ahead and have the last word Nick, as it is obvious that we are not going to be making any headway here. I just wanted to clear up any misconceptions before we conclude our discussion.
Modem Mouth,
I don't mean to bother you again – (in fact, I will only make this one plea) – but are you at least aware of the fact that the “Word”, or “Logos”, was not historically considered to be a person, but simply the wisdom of God? See the excerpt that I posted above concerning what Tertullian, father of the Trinity, believed, and see the Geneva Bible and the Tyndale Bible, (two English translations of the bible prior to the KJV), where the Word is referred to as “it” and not “he”. John 1:1-14 is about God's divine plan for the universe coming to fruition in the appearance of God's Annointed One, which was the very focus of His plan. It is not about a pre-existent Logos Deity that existed with God in heaven.
I am fully aware that you will disagree with me, and rely on the orthodox view, but if you ever do get around to digging deeply into the other matter that we discussed, (i.e. the complete absence of Trinity terminology in the NT), you might want to dig deeply into this matter is well.
May God bless your searching.
Nick,
By the way, here is a quote from page 102 of you referring to Yeshua as deity:
Quote The deity status of the Son of God is not new. It is established in the OT as quoted by the Spirit in Hebrews 1 for example. His deity is as an image of the Father above all created beings including the other sons of God[Gen 1,Jb1.2.38] His deity does not compare with that of his God. He is mighty.But he did not seek equality with the Father. Hi WIT,
What I mean is that when you use the word 'deity' you imply it means 'a being to be worshipped'. I do not but regard it as a state and a status. And there is the impasse.
Now you finally suggest the Son of God is in status only as an angel or even less, just a man! Enough said.You still work hard to convince all others of error while never propounding any solid basis for faith yourself. You stand on sand yet try to demolish what is on rock. Does that not concern you that you aim is still to pull down and not to build?
You quote scholars who support your view as if their word is irrefutable fact while stopping your ears to the Spirit as the Jews did.
Your view remains that of the Jews who did not listen even to Messiah and refuse to give him his rightful respect. I am concerned for you. It is you who have walked away from truth yet you want others to follow you into the same traps?
Modem Mouth,
“what God was, the Word was.” (The New English Bible)
“the Logos was divine.” (The New Translation of the Bible; J. Moffatt)
“the Word was divine.” (The Bible – An American Translation)
“the Word was divine.” (The Authentic New Testament)
“the Word was a god”; (The New World Translation)
“the Word was a god”; (The New Testament in an Improved Version)
These are also greek language experts but they did not agree with the “traditional” – “Word was God.”
Obviously there IS some trick in the original text. Therefore we cannot build a doctrine on this single verse ignoring the rest of the Bible. Especially, if you take verse 18 in the same chapter, which says that noone has seen God.Thank you Human,
Jn 1.18
“No man has seen God ,at any time;the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has explained Him”Or as WIT would accept
“…the UNIQUE God, who is in the bosom of the Father…”So John again attests to the godly status of Yeshua but shows he is NOT the Father. He has not just come from the bosom of the Father but IS there now.
How much uniqueness do you grant him?
Is he more unique than the other sons of God who were present when the foundations of the earth were being laid?
Is his uniqueness a higher status than that of any archangels, angels and natural men?
Is he the Lord of all creation under the authority of the Father?
Yes …. and all knees will bow to him eventually.Quote (Human @ Feb. 08 2005,21:03) Modem Mouth, “what God was, the Word was.” (The New English Bible)
“the Logos was divine.” (The New Translation of the Bible; J. Moffatt)
“the Word was divine.” (The Bible – An American Translation)
“the Word was divine.” (The Authentic New Testament)
“the Word was a god”; (The New World Translation)
“the Word was a god”; (The New Testament in an Improved Version)
These are also greek language experts but they did not agree with the “traditional” – “Word was God.”
Obviously there IS some trick in the original text. Therefore we cannot build a doctrine on this single verse ignoring the rest of the Bible. Especially, if you take verse 18 in the same chapter, which says that noone has seen God.
Human,
Not one of these versions are given as options in Bible gateway (19 English versions) or the Blue Letter Bible (11 English versions) websites. Yet, they are used extensively by the cults. I'll let other draw their own conclusions as to their credibility.I would say the defining characteristic of a cult is the denial of Jesus' deity. They all find different ways to do it.
Hi MM,
Concise Oxford dictionary
Cult. n. System of religious worship:devotion, homage to person or thing.The head of the Catholic church is the Pope who claims to act as vicar for Christ. His decisions and teachings are held as infallible and the church holds it's traditions as equal to scripture in validity[check teachings of Vatican 2].
If that is not a cult what is?
Hi Nick,
I agree with you.
Jesus is the only-begotten Son of God. He is the first created being and through him God created everything else. Jesus is unique and only through him we can get salvation from death. He has bought us with his perfect sacrifice. Since our lives belong to Jesus, he has full authority to determine to whom he shall give the salvation and resurrection and forgiveness of sins (resulting from his sacrifice). He has full authority in heaven and on earth.
However, (to Modem Mouth) this does not mean that Jesus has taken God's place.1 Corinthians 15:27 For, as it says, He has put all things under his feet. But when he says, All things are put under him, it is clear that it is not said about him who put all things under him.
Isaiah 42:8 “I am the LORD [YHWH], that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images.
1 Corinthians 15:28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
Jesus is God's solution to problems caused by Satan and the rebellion in Eden.
Nick,
btw here is how others translate John 1:18.(NKJV) John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared.
(RSV) John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.
(BBE) John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only Son, who is on the breast of the Father, he has made clear what God is.
In most manuscripts, there is only one “God” in this verse.
Hi Human,
I am confused about your doctrine of salvation. The false doctrine of Universalism says ALL have been saved. You seem to say this then suggest that because of his authority Yehsua chooses those to WHOM he will give that salvation and resurrection. You say salvation is from DEATH. Is this really what you are saying?If so you are really saying some cannot be saved as they will not be chosen. Scripture, however, says that' God wants all to come to salvation.' God is fair. It also says that Yeshua is the 'Gate' and that he will not lose any who come to him. But only those who are born into him are promised that salvation and inheritance.
The work is done sufficient for all to be saved but most will not respond to his wonderful gospel. He calls but we have to respond. We have free will and the choice and he will not refuse any who come to him. Of course 'many are called and few are chosen' and no one can to Yeshua come 'unless the Father calls him' so there is a divine election too in our salvation.
We can still die physically if Yeshua does not return first. Perhaps I have misunderstood you and you can clarify this issue for us?
Hi Nick,
In my opinion our views are not that different. Let me clarify.
Of course Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient to cover all sins of the world and to save all people. God wants all people to be saved – 2 Peter 3:9. He also has provided everything for every person to get saved (Jesus' sacrifice). However, we know that not all people will be saved – 2 Thess 1:7-9. Not all people want to. The Bible sets some prerequisites for salvation from eternal destruction – Rev 21:8, 1 Corinth 6:9-10.
What I mean by salvation? Well there are several salvations that we can point out:
1) salvation from death (result of sin) (1 Corinth 15:22; 1 John 3:14; Rev 21:4) – I do not mean by this that we will not die. This means that we have the hope of being resurrected and live for ever.
2) salvation from desctruction in Armageddon (2 Thess 1:7-9; Mat 25:31-46)
3) salvation from the evil system of this world (John 17:15; James 1:27)And salvation is not something that we can get once and then have it forever – Mat 24:13. God has prepared a path for salvation but we have to walk this path ourselves. Not just one step but the whole distance.
Hope this cleared up some things!
Hi Human,
The wonderful salvation in Yeshua is for all who repent. Even repentance is a gift so none can boast.
[Acts 5.31,11.18,Rom2.4]
The Gospel preaches repentance and complete forgiveness of sin in baptism in the name of Yeshua[Lk 24.47]This is the complete washing of renewal.
Then we pray for daily forgiveness because we still sin [Mt 6.11-12]which is as washing of the feet.[Jn 13]
We are clothed in the regal robes of the Righteousness of Yeshua in baptism and given the ring of authority and power.[Lk 15 21f] We join the retinue of the King of Kings.
As Gentiles we were outside the Law and destined for destruction[Rom 2.12]
But now we all can partake in this glorious gift[Lk 16.16]There are no more prerequisites apart from repentance and baptism[Jn 3.3.Lk 13.2]
We become sons of God and brothers of Yeshua.[Heb 12.5,2.11]
We are part of the true vine and so long as we receive and allow the sap of the Spirit to work in us we will produce useful fruit for the gardener and avoid being pruned away.[Jn 15.1f]
We are disciplined [Heb12]but not condemned.[Jn 5.24f.Rom 8.1]
We do not face the judgement of the sheep and goats[Mt 25.31]having been before the tribunal of Christ[Mt 25.14]
We do not face the second death and those who are alive at his return will never die.Hi Human,
The references to Armageddon seem to relate rather to the return of Jesus and the judgement. The plain of Megiddo is where the armies of the nations assemble to attack Jerusalem in Rev 20 after the millenial reign of Jesus Christ. Do you agree?Quote (Human @ Feb. 02 2005,10:09) About Jesus being an archangel: well there are several points to consider:
1) Jesus is Son of God and all angels are called “sons of God”
2) as you mentioned, 1 Thess 4:16 tells us that the dead will raise up whem they hear the archangel's voice. John 5:28 tells us that the dead will hear Jesus' voice. Jude 9 tells us that Michael is an archangel. There are no other archangels mentioned in the Bible.
3) Rev 12:7 tells us that Michael is the one leading his army of angels against Satan and, when Satan is thrown down, Rev 12:10 tells us that “the power of Christ has come”.
4) Rev 20:1 says that an “angel” comes down from heaven and binds Satan for 1000 years. Do you think there is a simple angel who can bind Satan, especially when you think how powerful is Satan (look at Ezek 28:12-19).
5) JWs do not say that Jesus is just a simple angel. JWs believe that Jesus is the only-begotten Son of God and through him everything was created, including angels. Therefore I do not think that the title “archangel” is an under-estimate.Jesus is not an Angel Haven't you read Hebrews
ANYONE can bind Satan if they have God on their side
Plus we are called sons of god
Jesus is not an Angel Haven't you read Hebrews
ANYONE can bind Satan if they have God on their side
Plus we are called sons of godHi Human,
“I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance”.Lk 5.32
” Now all the tax collectors and sinners were coming near him to listen to him” Lk 15.1
” He has gone to be the guest of a man who is a sinner” Lk 19.7All were sinners but only some knew they were and were looking for mercy. They listened while the righteous stopped their ears.
The gospel convicts. It shows us ALL of us have the roots of ALL sin in us.
“There is none righteous, no not one. All have fallen short of the glory of God” Rom 3.10
We cannot judge murderers or adulterers as we are all capable of the same sins and need the salvation offered by God in Jesus. None of us can clean up our own act as a prerequisite to salvation-only repent.Those outside the Gates of the new Jerusalem have;
Other gods-lusts and others idolatries
Other truth-lies
Other powers-occult powers such as sorcery.
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